Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[TTMartin]

I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.

I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.

I think this makes a lot more sense for Canon. With the 1D going full frame many sports pros still want the extra reach of an APS sensor (C or H) and the pro level 7D would fill that.

A full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII.

So I see Canon's line up as:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

[dilbert]

Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

I think you've left out two very important qualities: frame rate and auto-focus. Without those, the APS-H sensor would be meaningless.

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

IQ is a property of the design of the pixels and the sensor as a whole. If they used the same pixels from APS-C on a sensor that was APS-H then both sensors would have the same IQ. The only difference would be that the APS-H sensor would have more pixels - approximately 50% more. A 300mm lens on a 12MP APS-H has the same reach as a 8MP APS-C and 21MP Full Frame lens.

I understand exactly what you mean... and i agree with you. BUT there is a solid reason for all 1D series ( 1D, 1Dmk2, 1Dmk2N, 1Dmk3 1Dmk4) to be APS-H and NOT FF.

Yes, because at that time it was cheaper and more cost effective for canon to manufacture the APS-H sensors than the Full Frame ones. I don't know why people keep searching for "some other reason". There isn't one and that one is pretty powerful for big companies that want to make money.

[nicku]

Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

I think you've left out two very important qualities: frame rate and auto-focus. Without those, the APS-H sensor would be meaningless.

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

IQ is a property of the design of the pixels and the sensor as a whole. If they used the same pixels from APS-C on a sensor that was APS-H then both sensors would have the same IQ. The only difference would be that the APS-H sensor would have more pixels - approximately 50% more. A 300mm lens on a 12MP APS-H has the same reach as a 8MP APS-C and 21MP Full Frame lens.

I understand exactly what you mean... and i agree with you. BUT there is a solid reason for all 1D series ( 1D, 1Dmk2, 1Dmk2N, 1Dmk3 1Dmk4) to be APS-H and NOT FF.

Yes, because at that time it was cheaper and more cost effective for canon to manufacture the APS-H sensors than the Full Frame ones. I don't know why people keep searching for "some other reason". There isn't one and that one is pretty powerful for big companies that want to make money.

Reasonable enough until 1D3 and 1D4. If the money was the main reason then was more easy to use an already existing sensor in Canon range ( 5D 12.7MP for 1D3 and 5D2 sensor for 1D4) ... not spending money developing new APS-H sensors. Starting with Digic 3 processors canon had the processing power to use those sensors at 10 fps..... so the money reason is not standing up from my point of view.

PS 1D series was not a $2000 camera.

[pedro]

I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.

I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.

I think this makes a lot more sense for Canon. With the 1D going full frame many sports pros still want the extra reach of an APS sensor (C or H) and the pro level 7D would fill that.

A full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII.

So I see Canon's line up as:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

I added my version to your lineup:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
6D (5DII with new sensor and tech, slightly improved AF)
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

[dilbert]

Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

I think you've left out two very important qualities: frame rate and auto-focus. Without those, the APS-H sensor would be meaningless.

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

IQ is a property of the design of the pixels and the sensor as a whole. If they used the same pixels from APS-C on a sensor that was APS-H then both sensors would have the same IQ. The only difference would be that the APS-H sensor would have more pixels - approximately 50% more. A 300mm lens on a 12MP APS-H has the same reach as a 8MP APS-C and 21MP Full Frame lens.

I understand exactly what you mean... and i agree with you. BUT there is a solid reason for all 1D series ( 1D, 1Dmk2, 1Dmk2N, 1Dmk3 1Dmk4) to be APS-H and NOT FF.

Yes, because at that time it was cheaper and more cost effective for canon to manufacture the APS-H sensors than the Full Frame ones. I don't know why people keep searching for "some other reason". There isn't one and that one is pretty powerful for big companies that want to make money.

Reasonable enough until 1D3 and 1D4. If the money was the main reason then was more easy to use an already existing sensor in Canon range ( 5D 12.7MP for 1D3 and 5D2 sensor for 1D4) ... not spending money developing new APS-H sensors. Starting with Digic 3 processors canon had the processing power to use those sensors at 10 fps..... so the money reason is not standing up from my point of view.

Because you're looking at it from a consumer perspective, not a manufacturer's perspective. APS-H was the maximum size they could make cost effectively for a long time. Now that they can make full frame sensors cost effectively, there is no longer any reason for APS-H.

[TTMartin]

I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.

I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.

I think this makes a lot more sense for Canon. With the 1D going full frame many sports pros still want the extra reach of an APS sensor (C or H) and the pro level 7D would fill that.

A full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII.

So I see Canon's line up as:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

I added my version to your lineup:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
6D (5DII with new sensor and tech, slightly improved AF)
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.

Also an entry level full frame camera is still and entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.

The 6D you describe would have too much presure from used 5D MkIIs to make sense. Improve its features to much over the 5D MkII and now you compete with the 5D MkIII. Wrap it in a poly carb body and you don't hurt your 5D Mk III sales, even if its features are better than the 5D MkII.

Lots of reasons why a Full Frame Polycarb 70D makes sense. And it really doesn't go that much in the face of the rumor statements.

[AprilForever]

The 7D mk II HAS to be APS-C. If it is not, there will be blood, sweat, and tears!!!

On a serious note, neutering the 7D MK II would indeed be a marketing disaster. Will canon bloat the sensor to FF? I think not. The 5D MK III is nearly a FF 7d. Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.

Is it possible for Canon to do something mind-numbingly stupid? Yes. Anyone remember ET, the atari game?

Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

Don't despair. Canon is a shrewd, sophisticated company. They know their 7D customers and they know how to get us to upgrade to the II. We will see an APS-C 7DII and it will be spectacular. (And of course, they'll probably squeeze every cent out of us that they can. But we will go happily like lambs to the slaughter because we loves our 7Ds)

Indeed... A better 7D I would drop more for... I am guessing 2399.00...

[neuroanatomist]

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

True when you're talking about IQ on the pixel level, untrue when you're talking about IQ on the image level.  The 20D and 5DII have the same size pixels.  Yes, the 5DII pixels are 'better' but not better enough to account for the IQ differences between the sensors.  The FF sensor has better IQ because as a whole, the larger sensor gathers more total light.

[unfocused]

From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.

Also an entry level full frame camera is still an entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.

100% agreement with your comments. Not sure about the numbering convention though. I think they'll call the full frame entrance level camera something different. (They are running out of numbers though, so not sure what they do) I'm still predicting the high megapixel camera will be called a 5DHD or something similar. Same body as the 5DIII, just a different sensor (and lower frame rate as a result). I think they still need the 70D in the lineup as an APS-C option for those who don't or won't spend as much as what a 7D costs.

Lots of people seem to think Canon and Nikon want to move everyone to full frame. But they might prefer to move everyone to two bodies: one full frame and one APS-C. Having a full range of choices in both formats gives them greater flexibility to suck every available dime out of us.

[Chuck Alaimo]

It still makes sense to me that the 7d2 could be the FF offering.  But, there is also a good argument for the 70D to be FF. 

But if this is the competition:
New/updated Nikon D600 specifications:

24.7MP full frame sensor
Weight: 760g (850g with battery and memory cards), the D800 weights 900g
3.2" LCD with 921K dot with ambient sensor control
HDMI output
Video compression: H264/MPEG-4
Full HD with 30p, 25p, 24p, HD with 60p, 50p, 30p, 25p
Viewfinder coverage: 100% for FX , 97% for Dx
The Nikon D600 will have built-in AF motor
The body most probably will be weather sealed
The D600 may not have built-in GPS as initially reported
ISO range: 100-6400 (with Lo-1 ISO 50 and Hi-2 ISO 25,600)
39 AF points (with an option of 11 AF points), 9 cross-type AF points
AF face detection
Exposure compensation: ±5 EV (same as the D800)
The D600 will probably use the EN-EL15 rechargeable Li-ion battery

If that's what the d600 is going to look like, then I'd say canon may be screwed if the the entry FF doesn't have some pro featured (like weather sealing).  Canon has kind of forced themselves into a hole right now where they have to do something bold to stay competitive.  Maybe nikon is seriously gambling, cause if those specs are retail price of $1500, they are mst certainly selling it at a loss to keep themselves relevant.  Does a polycarb ff70d stand a chance?  can a ff super rebel make it (the ef-s glass issue is way more valid for the XXd series)..

If canon moves the 7D into FF territory, then they can for the firswt time really say that they xd series is their pro FF series. 

From what I have heard, in Japan the number 6 is bad mojo, so its doubtful that they'd name anything with a 6 and no 0 after the 6.

no way the entry FF is called the 3d - 3D would have to fit in between the 1d and the 5d series, and if the rumors of a high MP body are true, the 3D would probably be that.

When it comes down to it though, we're all just have to sit and wait to see what actually happens!!!

[dilbert]

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

True when you're talking about IQ on the pixel level, untrue when you're talking about IQ on the image level.  The 20D and 5DII have the same size pixels.  Yes, the 5DII pixels are 'better' but not better enough to account for the IQ differences between the sensors.  The FF sensor has better IQ because as a whole, the larger sensor gathers more total light.

I'll beg to differ with you there. I'm pretty sure that if you took the center 8MP from a 5DII image that it would be better than the 20D's image when using the same lens at the same setting. e.g. from 20m away, use a 50/1.4 and photograph the same subject with both cameras. Yes, the images will not be the same but the center 8MP of both images should be. The center 8MP don't somehow magically benefit from the pixels around the edge of the sensor.

[neuroanatomist]

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

True when you're talking about IQ on the pixel level, untrue when you're talking about IQ on the image level.  The 20D and 5DII have the same size pixels.  Yes, the 5DII pixels are 'better' but not better enough to account for the IQ differences between the sensors.  The FF sensor has better IQ because as a whole, the larger sensor gathers more total light.

I'll beg to differ with you there. I'm pretty sure that if you took the center 8MP from a 5DII image that it would be better than the 20D's image when using the same lens at the same setting. e.g. from 20m away, use a 50/1.4 and photograph the same subject with both cameras. Yes, the images will not be the same but the center 8MP of both images should be. The center 8MP don't somehow magically benefit from the pixels around the edge of the sensor.

Yes, cropping throws away the benefit of the FF sensor gathering more total light.  I'm saying that if you move closer with the FF camera (or zoom in with a zoom lens) so you're getting the same framing covering the sensor, you'll get better IQ from the FF sensor.  That means there is an inherent advantage to FF, unless you go around shooting everything wider than you need and planning to crop away 60% of all your images.

[dlleno]

From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.

Also an entry level full frame camera is still an entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.

100% agreement with your comments. Not sure about the numbering convention though. I think they'll call the full frame entrance level camera something different.

  yes I follow the reasoning to introduce an entry level FF, but you're right, imho, that the succession of 60D to 70D would be confusing for those who upgraded to 70D without knowing their APS-C lenses won't work.

... I think they still need the 70D in the lineup as an APS-C option for those who don't or won't spend as much as what a 7D costs.

Lots of people seem to think Canon and Nikon want to move everyone to full frame. But they might prefer to move everyone to two bodies: one full frame and one APS-C. Having a full range of choices in both formats gives them greater flexibility to suck every available dime out of us.

+1.  for the pros who have 1DXs -- they will either buy more glass to get the reach once enjoyed by the 1D4, or they will turn to a different body.  But with no1D5, the weight of evidence to me suggests a premium crop body of some flavor ,perhaps as a primary sports body for prosumers and secondary body for pros. 

[dlleno]

Yes, cropping throws away the benefit of the FF sensor gathering more total light.  I'm saying that if you move closer with the FF camera (or zoom in with a zoom lens) so you're getting the same framing covering the sensor, you'll get better IQ from the FF sensor.  That means there is an inherent advantage to FF, unless you go around shooting everything wider than you need and planning to crop away 60% of all your images.

As a practical matter, I suspect the crop debate, at least in part, boils down to the fact that FF sensors are not likely to emerge with sufficient pixel density to produce IQ equivalent to a high quality crop sensor in distance constrained situations using the same lens, i.e. the same subject distance.  At least not at a cost attractive to those who would be the most likely to benefit from such a camera.   Perhaps the rumored high-MP FF would achieve this performance level I dont' know, but I note that the motivations for FF bodies are generally different from that of the cop bodies, such that to date we've not seen a FF  body that can do this.

[BobSanderson]

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

True when you're talking about IQ on the pixel level, untrue when you're talking about IQ on the image level.  The 20D and 5DII have the same size pixels.  Yes, the 5DII pixels are 'better' but not better enough to account for the IQ differences between the sensors.  The FF sensor has better IQ because as a whole, the larger sensor gathers more total light.

I'll beg to differ with you there. I'm pretty sure that if you took the center 8MP from a 5DII image that it would be better than the 20D's image when using the same lens at the same setting. e.g. from 20m away, use a 50/1.4 and photograph the same subject with both cameras. Yes, the images will not be the same but the center 8MP of both images should be. The center 8MP don't somehow magically benefit from the pixels around the edge of the sensor.

Yes, cropping throws away the benefit of the FF sensor gathering more total light.  I'm saying that if you move closer with the FF camera (or zoom in with a zoom lens) so you're getting the same framing covering the sensor, you'll get better IQ from the FF sensor.  That means there is an inherent advantage to FF, unless you go around shooting everything wider than you need and planning to crop away 60% of all your images.

Agree -I think many of the "experts" at camera shops don't understand this either.