Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[dilbert]

What gives a lens its "reach" is the pixel density, not the sensor format. A 300mm lens on a 20D will give you almost the same "reach" as on a 5D Mark II/III/1Ds3.

Yep - perhaps you need to tell the sports pros that they have been using the wrong sensors for the last 10 years, never mind the wrong manufacturers cameras.

I think that the professional sports photographers, etc, all use whatever works the best and that the choice of sensor is either irrelevant or of secondary concern. If Canon never had APS-H, I doubt very much that there would be more or less professionals using Canon because of that. Similarly, the 1D series could have had 1.4 or 1.2 or 1.5 crop and they'd still have used it.

[briansquibb]

What gives a lens its "reach" is the pixel density, not the sensor format. A 300mm lens on a 20D will give you almost the same "reach" as on a 5D Mark II/III/1Ds3.

Yep - perhaps you need to tell the sports pros that they have been using the wrong sensors for the last 10 years, never mind the wrong manufacturers cameras.

I think that the professional sports photographers, etc, all use whatever works the best and that the choice of sensor is either irrelevant or of secondary concern. If Canon never had APS-H, I doubt very much that there would be more or less professionals using Canon because of that. Similarly, the 1D series could have had 1.4 or 1.2 or 1.5 crop and they'd still have used it.

So we are in agreement - Canon made the best camera they could and the pro used it. I would guess then that the sensor that Canon chose was the one they knew would deliver what was needed. So by inference the APS-H sensor was the best sensor to sports/action.

IMO therefore would make sense therefore that the APS-H would make perfect sense for a super sports camera to come in above the 7D - tried tested and proven over the last 10 years and with the R&D done to increase the mps well above 36mps.

[daniemare]

I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.

I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.

I think this makes a lot more sense for Canon. With the 1D going full frame many sports pros still want the extra reach of an APS sensor (C or H) and the pro level 7D would fill that.

A full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII.

So I see Canon's line up as:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

I added my version to your lineup:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
6D (5DII with new sensor and tech, slightly improved AF)
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.

Also an entry level full frame camera is still and entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.

The 6D you describe would have too much presure from used 5D MkIIs to make sense. Improve its features to much over the 5D MkII and now you compete with the 5D MkIII. Wrap it in a poly carb body and you don't hurt your 5D Mk III sales, even if its features are better than the 5D MkII.

Lots of reasons why a Full Frame Polycarb 70D makes sense. And it really doesn't go that much in the face of the rumor statements.

I have been saying this from even before the D600 rumours. A 70D FF will really be entry level, so preventing 5D pressure and will be the most probable $1500 - $1700 price point delivery.

Marketing will be easy:
xD = Pro (regardless of sensor size as many birders like the "built-in" TC of a Pro 7D)
xxD,xxxD,xxxxD & mirrorless = Consumer (also regardless of sensor size)

[dlleno]

Honestly, the odds of BOTH the 7DII and a 70D being released are hard to swallow. I would see one or the other, but given the "failures" of the 60D to continue the legacy of the XXD series, I forsee the XXD line being dropped for a new flagship APS-C 7D mark II.

They won't upgrade the 7DII to full frame or APS-H (unless it supports EF-s lenses) and it doesn't make much sence to release TWO high performace APS-C cameras (which is where the 70D and 7DII would have to be placed) after the T4i.

The merging of the 70D and 7DII is logical. My guess with the sucess of the 7D, they will call the "new" camera the 7DII and NOT the 70D.

Just my 2 cents.

D

Well, since this is a rumor/opinion site, every opinion is valid if it has some reasonable number of neurons behind it.  The above seems the most logical to me, depending of course on how one second-guesses the 7D intro.   I'm not sure there is room to continue with four APS-C bodies  xxxxD, xxxd, xxd, and 7D, so one of those has to go.  I see the 7D intro as an effort to assert, or even experiment with, a near-pro C body and squeeze out one of the others eventually.  The outcome of the 7D intro, it seems to me, was wildly succesful, which suggest that something with a 7 on the front will continue.   

Marketing and customer messaging is both an art and a science, and moving the 7D itself to a FF sensor would drastically change the positioning of this body, as well as the market perceptions in ways far more profound than the merge of the APS-H 1D4 with the FF 1DS -- which itself was accomplished by droping the 1D<x> moniker altogether.  So, just my interpretation of Canon's actions I would say 7D either disappears entirely or stays as the flagship APS-C body. and since the latter appears to have been Canon's intentions all along ,that seem the most likely outcome.  Even a change to APS-H, as cool as that would be, would be even more confusing to today's 7D community who have already invested in EF-S lenses that would not work with such a sensor change.  7D owners would wanted to upgrade would be forced into the 70D or sell their S lenses.    From a marketing perspective, the 70D name doesn't quite cut it, imho, as the flaship C body, when you already have 7D doing that already.   

What's still conspicuously absent is an indication from Canon as to how they will fulfill their stated commitment to pro wildlife and sports without a 1.3x in the picture - unless it is with the combination of 1DX and 7D.  and to do that, a new APS-C sensor in the 7D could have to produce better images than cropped 1DX images of the same FOV -- and do so more convincingly than todays 7D  when compared with the 5D3.  Such a (7D2) camera would have to reign as the premium flagship C body that the pros would  be happy to carry as a 2nd body. 

of course, we could see an APS-H surprise as well, which would be a fascinating show to watch on this board if it ever happend!

[briansquibb]

of course, we could see an APS-H surprise as well, which would be a fascinating show to watch on this board if it ever happend!

Indeed it would 

[dilbert]

What gives a lens its "reach" is the pixel density, not the sensor format. A 300mm lens on a 20D will give you almost the same "reach" as on a 5D Mark II/III/1Ds3.

Yep - perhaps you need to tell the sports pros that they have been using the wrong sensors for the last 10 years, never mind the wrong manufacturers cameras.

I think that the professional sports photographers, etc, all use whatever works the best and that the choice of sensor is either irrelevant or of secondary concern. If Canon never had APS-H, I doubt very much that there would be more or less professionals using Canon because of that. Similarly, the 1D series could have had 1.4 or 1.2 or 1.5 crop and they'd still have used it.

So we are in agreement - Canon made the best camera they could and the pro used it. I would guess then that the sensor that Canon chose was the one they knew would deliver what was needed. So by inference the APS-H sensor was the best sensor to sports/action.

... that Canon could manufacture in both quantity and cost effectiveness in order to deliver the 1D series camera at its price point.

If 10 years ago Canon had the machinery it does today then APS-H would never have existed.

IMO therefore would make sense therefore that the APS-H would make perfect sense for a super sports camera to come in above the 7D - tried tested and proven over the last 10 years and with the R&D done to increase the mps well above 36mps.

*yawn* if you keep repeating this to yourself over and over, I imagine that you'll convince yourself that it is true. Too bad that Canon seems to believe that sports photographers would prefer full frame sensors. I wonder why Canon thinks that? Could it be because that's what the sports photographers that Canon talks to and listens to want?

There's a thread elsewhere about some Euro football shooter that is using the 1DX. Does he complain anywhere about no longer having a 1.3x crop? No. All he cares about is the autofocus performance and frame rate. Wonder of wonders.

[Richard8971]

Some here are concluding that APS-H is dead. When did Canon make such an announcement? Didn't they just produce a prototype APS-H 120MP sensor about a year or so ago?

http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/08/canons-120mp-aps-h-sensor/

Why would they do so if the APS-H sensor was eventually going to be eliminated? Hmmmm....

There is nothing wrong with the APS-H sensor. It allows some crop (additional reach) and can allow for "cleaner" images over the APS-C sensor and it's cheaper to produce than a FF sensor.

However, that being said, I cannot imagine the 7DII being FF or APS-H, unless it came compatable with EF-s lenses but hardware limitations won't allow for that, yet. Too many 7D owners have EF-s lenses that would NOT be compatable with a 7DII if it was produced with a FF or APS-H sensor. That would be a poor marketing decision for Canon, in MO.

I still believe the XXD line will be dropped and the 7DII will take it's place.

D

[Richard8971]

The above seems the most logical to me...

...of course, we could see an APS-H surprise as well, which would be a fascinating show to watch on this board if it ever happend!

Thanks.

And I agree, no one here knows exactly what Canon will do.

D

[Richard8971]

If 10 years ago Canon had the machinery it does today then APS-H would never have existed.

And how do you come to this conclusion? Canon simply made DSLR sensors to co-exist with some of the existing SLR film standards, 35mm, APS-H and APS-C. Film users would more easily adapt to sensor sizes tailored to what they were already used too.

Each sensor offers pros and cons over the other. Nothing wrong with any of them, just depends on what you need/want in a camera.

I own both the 5DII and 7D. Am I unhappy with one of them? NO! Each camera offers something the other cannot and I for one am glad I have both to choose from, depending on my shooting needs. If I had a 1D mark (whatever) with an APS-H sensor, I would use it too!

D

[briansquibb]

There's a thread elsewhere about some Euro football shooter that is using the 1DX. Does he complain anywhere about no longer having a 1.3x crop? No. All he cares about is the autofocus performance and frame rate. Wonder of wonders.

I can't follow the logic of your threads - one minute you are advocating APS-C because of the reach now you are talking about ff. My difficulty is understanding why you are so anti APS-H - and assume I am a APS-H fanboy  when you consider that I only bought it October 2011 as an upgrade to the 7D.

From my ownership of both the 7D and a 1D4 I am suggesting a replacement for the 7D as a APS-H super sports camera not a replacement for the 1DX. I would be interested to know whether 7D owners would like to upgrade to:

- 10fps
- 24mps
- twin CF slots
- 42 point AF
- AF point metering

All these features would be available by migrating down the technology from the 1D4. Not a big deal and from my experience a very valid suggestion.

[bdunbar79]

There's a thread elsewhere about some Euro football shooter that is using the 1DX. Does he complain anywhere about no longer having a 1.3x crop? No. All he cares about is the autofocus performance and frame rate. Wonder of wonders.

I can't follow the logic of your threads - one minute you are advocating APS-C because of the reach now you are talking about ff. My difficulty is understanding why you are so anti APS-H - and assume I am a APD-H fanboy  when you consider that I only bought it October 2011 as an upgrade to the 7D.

From my ownership of both the 7D I am suggesting a replacement for the 7D as a APS-H super sports camera not a replacement for the 1DX. I would be interested to know whether 7D owners would like to upgrade to:

- 10fps
- 24mps
- twin CF slots
- 42 point AF
- AF point metering

All these features would be available by migrating down the technology from the 1D4. Not a big deal and from my experience a very valid suggestion.

I'm very serious here.  Brian if that were the case, I'd buy that over the 1D X and be very happy.

[plutonium10]

I still believe the XXD line will be dropped and the 7DII will take it's place.

I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line. I agree that a 7D MK II (if the 7D/60D product lines are in fact merged) could successfully become the spiritual successor to both the 7D and 60D in many regards, but dropping the actual XXD moniker? No. In my mind, it could make sense for the rumored entry-level FF camera to use the XXD badge, which would further help distance it from the more advanced features of the 5D III / 7D II. Then again, if it does end up being more expensive than the 7D II, the 6D name might be a better fit.

[Richard8971]

I still believe the XXD line will be dropped and the 7DII will take it's place.

I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line. I agree that a 7D MK II (if the 7D/60D product lines are in fact merged) could successfully become the spiritual successor to both the 7D and 60D in many regards, but dropping the actual XXD moniker? No. In my mind, it could make sense for the rumored entry-level FF camera to use the XXD badge, which would further help distance it from the more advanced features of the 5D III / 7D II. Then again, if it does end up being more expensive than the 7D II, the 6D name might be a better fit.

OK, I could see keeping the XXD line IF the line went FF (which is very unlikely). BUT, not if the 70D and 7DII were APS-C sensors.

I forsee the XXD line being dropped in favor of a flagship 7DII and I forsee an entry level FF (3D or 6D, maybe) to replace the 5DII.

Besides the 70D and 7DII would more than likely be APS-C sensors. Given the features of the T4i where would you place the specs of the two? Any ideas anyone? My opinion? IF they released the 70D and 7DII the 7DII would have to be placed in the APS-C 32MP+, 8-10 fps range (with 1DX/5DII features). It's possible, but who knows really. The 70D would have to be placed in the 24MP+ 6-8 fps range to be better than the T4i.

D

[Richard8971]

I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line.

Why not? They "just" "downgraded" it to a plastic body and lower FPS to not directly compete with the 7D. 

D

[plutonium10]

I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line.

Why not? They "just" "downgraded" it to a plastic body and lower FPS to not directly compete with the 7D. 

D

That's true, they did just that, but the XXD name is useful in itself from a marketing perspective because it allows a model to be placed somewhat below the greatness of xD bodies and somewhat above the xxxD consumer line. This is what leads me believe that the xxD line will survive, and it's also why I think a "budget" FF could fit the name well. I do admit the idea is somewhat unlikely but who knows?