Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[dlleno]

I think 28MP APS-H would be a bit much with current sensor tech
i'd be concerned about potential IQ issues also it will kill the ability to have high FPS

as long as we're still amusing ourselves with the possibility of an APS-H body...

yes this is what, imho,  makes it less likely that an APS-C body will become a go-to crop body for pro wildlifers along side the 1DX.  Even if Canon pulls some astonishing breakthrough that makes APS-C viable for this purpose, it would seem the advantage would even better realized if such a breakthrough were applied to APS-H instead -- unless of course the  breakthrough were so astonishing that H offered little advantage over C, in which case the next 48MP FF will render the whole question moot anyway.

So -- until such a breakthrough happens, Canon could keep dodging and dancing with the competition instead of confronting it head on --  by offering an H body with a unique mix of reach and IQ. 

I would also suggest that the "missing" FOV/Focal length concerns relative to APS-H are not important if Canon is expecting the pro togs to also carry a 1DX. 

[PhotoCharlie]

So long as we're all speculating (whether you can justify it technically, or with market segmentation, or with competition, let's all agree it's simply fun to speculate), here's some I haven't seen suggested, or haven't seen in this thread.

• Mirrorless becomes the new entry level multi-lens camera
• 4Ti/650D is the continuation of the xxD APS-C series (continuing the 60D body form factor step down from 50D)
• 70D is the entry level FF at $1500 (MP properly sized for proper video downsizing, but smaller MP than 5Diii)
• 7Dii remains the premier APS-C with new 22.1MP for improved video downsizing and the rumored 2.0 firmware features.
• A 5Diii variant (4D anyone or how about 5Diiix?) with FF big MP in a density/ratio that retains the 5Diii video downsizing benefits.

So there would be 2 mid level segments with APS-C and FF cameras for each:  the mostly affordable entry level enthusiast and the more expensive advanced enthusiast/pro.

My 2 cents (or at least my current speculation whether I beleive it or not).

[Richard8971]

• Mirrorless becomes the new entry level multi-lens camera
• 4Ti/650D is the continuation of the xxD APS-C series (continuing the 60D body form factor step down from 50D)
• 70D is the entry level FF at $1500 (MP properly sized for proper video downsizing, but smaller MP than 5Diii)
• 7Dii remains the premier APS-C with new 22.1MP for improved video downsizing and the rumored 2.0 firmware features.
• A 5Diii variant (4D anyone or how about 5Diiix?) with FF big MP in a density/ratio that retains the 5Diii video downsizing benefits.

I would have to agree but I am not sure I see the XXD becoming FF. Reason? It's the same reason why the XD line will not become FF, too many XXD owners and XD owners have EF-s lenses. An upgrade HAS to be justified by the buyer and if the upgrade cannot use ones current hardware, what's the point of upgrading?

Example, the 5D line has ALWAYS been FF, just as the Rebel line has ALWAYS been APS-C and so on and so on. Canon intergrated two high performance lines (1Ds and 1D) for the better, BUT APS-H bodies CANNOT use EF-s lenses SO, it makes sense to upgrade to the newer body.

I forsee the XXD and XD line becoming the new flagship APS-C camera (into the 7DII) and a new 5 series (or 3D) FF entry level. Canon will likely stay within current camera labels or create new ones (I.E. 3D or 6D) Simple marketing is my reasoning, they will likely keep the current tried and proven trends going.

D

[wickidwombat]

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

2) yes there are good non canon Dx lenses but I dont think canon really care about them

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses

[Richard8971]

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

Um WRONG. Some EF-s lenses are just as good as many "L" class lenses and Canon continues to produce them.

Example: Standard Zoom Lenses (7 EF-s lenses vs 3 EF lenses and 1 is a replacement)

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup

Some EF-s lenses are very expensive, tell this to many happy EF-s lens owners, like myself, that Canon somehow will not take EF-s lenses into consideration when releasing an upgrade to a current camera line.

D

[wickidwombat]

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

Um WRONG. Some EF-s lenses are just as good as many "L" class lenses and Canon continues to produce them.

Example: Standard Zoom Lenses (7 EF-s lenses vs 3 EF lenses and 1 is a replacement)

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup

Some EF-s lenses are very expensive, tell this to many happy EF-s lens owners, like myself, that Canon somehow will not take EF-s lenses into consideration when releasing an upgrade to a current camera line.

D

yes i specified all 2 of them 

[Richard8971]

yes i specified all 2 of them 

Well, say what you want, but I own EF-s lenses as well as EF "L" lenses and some EF-s lenses I have I will put against "L" glass anyday.

D

[wickidwombat]

woops i missed the 10-22 so there are 3 the rest are pretty lackluster

[dlleno]

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

I don't think I can buy this argument.  first of all, you left out the 10-22.  All three are high dollar S lenses which equal or approach L optical quality in a less expensive build quality.  serious APS-C body users will have one and usually two out of the three 

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses

well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass.  Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body,  making that investment suddenly useless.  Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies. 

[Richard8971]

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

I don't think I can buy this argument.  first of all, you left out the 10-22.  All three are high dollar S lenses which equal or approach L optical quality in a less expensive build quality.  serious APS-C body users will have one and usually two out of the three 

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses

well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass.  Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body,  making that investment suddenly useless.  Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.

Well put, thank you.

D

[Richard8971]

woops i missed the 10-22 so there are 3 the rest are pretty lackluster

Well, that's still 3 EF-s lenses to 2 EF lenses (In ONLY the standard zoom line), and Canon has shown it's dedication to the EF-s line by coming out with some pretty impressive EF-s lenses, hands down.

Oh, and not every "EF" lens ever produced were of excellent quality either, BUT some EF-s lenses HAVE shown themselves to be "L" class quality optically.

D

[wickidwombat]

yeah I added the 10-22 that I missed out and you will notice the 3 lenses are they 3 that preserve the wide end on APS-C they are they only EF-S lenses that fit into the higher quality bracket. for the tele end APS-C give you the 2 added benefits on the EF lenses of sweet spot effect and the additional reach.

If the 70D steps back into having decent build quality and good features and regain the top level APS-C crown

it leaves room for a high performance APS-H camera which has the following significant advantages over APS-C

1) significantly better image quality
2) still get the sweet spot effect
3) till get some additional crop factor reach but not at the expense of image quality
4) ability to increase FPS over FF

of course this is all based on current sensor tech, If crop sensors can overcome the current IQ issues and approach current FF IQ then I would expect to see a similar jump in corresponding FF image quality.

Personally I think the way to go would be for a APS-H camera to enable a crop mode similar to nikon with EF-S lenses giving a boosted FPS due to smaller file sizes
for example 8 FPS in APS-H mode and with an EF-S ens attached the image size is reduced automatically to fit the image circle and FPS increase to 10 FPS

Also important would be to not use the new 61pt AF and use the old 1D 45 pt AF including the f8 AF

this would be the best way to make a killer crop camera that can really hand it to the competition but more importantly fill several gaps appearing in canons line.

I still maintain there are only 3 EF-S lenses made by canon worth owning

[unfocused]

Just to add some fuel to the fire: I don't think we know what the quality of the new 18-135 STM lens is yet, so that might be Number Four.

Does make you wonder too, if Canon is considering changing formats, why they would be releasing their first affordable zoom for video in EF-S format? 

I think I'm just going to surrender on the whole APS-H format discussion. It's become a religious issue for some people and no amount of logic or facts will shake their faith that APS-H will rise from the dead and walk the earth again.

[wickidwombat]

Just to add some fuel to the fire: I don't think we know what the quality of the new 18-135 STM lens is yet, so that might be Number Four.

Does make you wonder too, if Canon is considering changing formats, why they would be releasing their first affordable zoom for video in EF-S format? 

I think I'm just going to surrender on the whole APS-H format discussion. It's become a religious issue for some people and no amount of logic or facts will shake their faith that APS-H will rise from the dead and walk the earth again.

true about the 18-135 STM however looks like its going to be more of a video lens than for stills.

I am a self confessed shameless APS-H fanboi. I have no problem admitting that

APS-C crowd have their fair share of zealots too

I think alot of people that have never owned or used 1D bodies write APS-H off as a half way solution
they dont realise that those are actually where its strengths lie
everyone that use them know how much better they are than the on paper specs appear
ever used a 16-35 f2.8L II on an APS-H? it gives you 20-48mm effectively corner to corner sharp
and makes for the best walkaround lens around IMO (many other will agree)

[Richard8971]

If the 70D steps back into having decent build quality and good features and regain the top level APS-C crown...

Your words, itallics and underline mine. That my friend is a BIG IF!!!

The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line... ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player. (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C AND the flagship camera body, you can bank on it.

D