Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[Richard8971]

And just for the record, I own BOTH FF and APS-C camera bodies. I love them both for what they can and cannot do. I mean come on, Canon WILL NOT make ONE camera for everyone, they can't!!! So, each camera body offers something that appeals to one shooter and not to another, for whatever reason.

There will ALWAYS be APS-C cameras and FF and whatever sensors... Not one is better than another, depending on your budget/shooting needs. Get over it.

D

[wickidwombat]

If the 70D steps back into having decent build quality and good features and regain the top level APS-C crown...

Your words, itallics and underline mine. That my friend is a BIG IF!!!

The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line... ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player. (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C, you can bank on it.

D

That pretty sound logic and I agree

(its nice to be able to have these discussions / arguements without it degenerating into name calling )

 definately see room for only 2 APS-C bodies too

I think canon need to step up the game with the 70D to counter the nikon and sony offerings

I would be disapointed to see the use the same sensor from the 650D in the top line APS-C since it doesnt really look like much more than a rehash of the existing sensor (this is said without any real reviews being done at this date)

there is no reason they couldn't make the 70D the next 7D take the existing body maybe tweak the weathe sealing a bit and bugger up the image review zoom like they did on the 5Dmk3
give it dual card slots better AF (personally I would just bolt the 1Dmk4 AF straight in and call it done) better sensor say a new gapless microlens 22MP APS-C to further differentiate from the rebel.

this gives them the 80D and 90D for 2 more generations by which time the playing field will be vastly different with mirroless etc and the landscape changing alot

I really dont know what they will do with the 7D maybe keep it as an experimental proving ground?

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

same goes for the king of crops be it a 70D or a 7Dmk2 it needs to substantially stand out from the rebels

[Richard8971]

(its nice to be able to have these discussions / arguements without it degenerating into name calling )

Oh I agree.   Part of the "rumors" thing is that I really don't know for sure, but it's fun to speculate.

D

[Richard8971]

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

[wickidwombat]

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

LOL wouldnt that be funny wait for all the MP junkies to have switched to nikon sold all their lovelly L glass then say "stuff it you know what lets just release this bad boy who cares if anything can actually resolve it"
mind you even with dual digic 5+ i would think 120MP APS-H would struggle to push out more than 2 fps if it was lucky, still landscapers would go gaga for it

[Chewngum]

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

I sincerely doubt the 120MP sensor will be making into a DSLR, imagine the 200MB files with current computing power and storage speeds. I do think that APS-H is not coming back and hope that it doesn't. I would much prefer Canon put some real R&D into APS-C and produce something which even nearly matches what competitors have been offering for years, think Pentax K5 or Sony 16MP. APS-C would give the reach people are asking for in a pro body, pair it with the 1d4 AF and your set. Then it would retain f8 focusing for the people who like essentially using telescopes and given the right build would be a worthy filler for the wildlife and super-duper-telephoto photographers. Price it at $2500AUD $2100US 2000EURO and people will happily pay the premium for some pro-er features and it'll be king of the crops.

[Wild]

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

120 megapixels?! Those'd sell like hotcakes!  Why aren't they selling those already??? 

In all seriousness though, I think the safest bet here is an upgraded 70d to the top of the line aps-c, and getting rid of the 7d line.  Why?  Because Canon won't just let Nikon steal all the thunder with an entry-level FF.  And with an entry level FF at a similar price point to a 7dii, what's the point of the 7d line? (We know the point, but most consumers wouldn't) Why not just go back to the old days where xxD was top of the line aps-c?

Make the 70d a 7dii-equivalent, but price it a few hundred less than the FF entry level camera, and everybody is happy (including Canon since they won't have two cameras at the same price competing for sales).

Oh and if they do decide to release an entry-level full frame, my money is going to it being called a 6d 

[wickidwombat]

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

I sincerely doubt the 120MP sensor will be making into a DSLR, imagine the 200MB files with current computing power and storage speeds. I do think that APS-H is not coming back and hope that it doesn't. I would much prefer Canon put some real R&D into APS-C and produce something which even nearly matches what competitors have been offering for years, think Pentax K5 or Sony 16MP. APS-C would give the reach people are asking for in a pro body, pair it with the 1d4 AF and your set. Then it would retain f8 focusing for the people who like essentially using telescopes and given the right build would be a worthy filler for the wildlife and super-duper-telephoto photographers. Price it at $2500AUD $2100US 2000EURO and people will happily pay the premium for some pro-er features and it'll be king of the crops.

if they just took the 1Dmk4 bits as they are now stuck it all in a 5Dmk3 body and sold it at $2500 i would buy one as soon as i could find one even if it is only 16MP

[Richard8971]

Make the 70d a 7dii-equivalent, but price it a few hundred less than the FF entry level camera, and everybody is happy (including Canon since they won't have two cameras at the same price competing for sales).

Won't happen. The 60D has become the "joke" of the Canon EOS bodies (I have seen it being called "The Rebel that should have been") compared to features found on previous XXD bodies. (What? The 30D had 5 fps as well... wait, at least the 30D had a metal body...) Tell me what other Canon EOS body was DOWNGRADED and then UPGRADED to the flagship body.

Like I have said, the 7D was designed and marketed as the FLAGSHIP APS-C camera body and will remain so. Can anyone give me a reasonable reason why the 7D replacement (and continue the 7D name) will not continue this tradition?? Oh and what marketing strategy are you basing your logic on? Remember, marketing (sales based on previous bodies) is the only thing Canon will be concerned with when they make a APS-C replacement and if you don't believe me, then you going to be sadly dissapointed with your prediction(s).

The 60D was "downgraded" so AS NOT TO DIRECTLY COMPETE with the 7D. Fact, fact, fact...

So now why would the so called "future" 70D compete with the 7D OR it's replacement? Based on history, the 70D should be, "feature-wise" somewhere in the lines of the 40D or XSi.... Makes sense to me. I mean why not? The new T4i is darn near a 60D in a slightly smaller body, so where does that leave the 70D? 7D status? They already have a 7D status camera body, THE 7D!!!

D

[briansquibb]

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C AND the flagship camera body, you can bank on it.

D

The 7D is the top prosumer sports body and that is a niche that Canon have dominated for some years.

There is no reason why Canon cannot trickle down and improve this technology into the 70D - the traditional nomenclature for the prosumer range

In place of the 7D a new sports body would be needed to surpass the 70D. I dont believe the technology is important for the sports camera however it would have to:

- be good for birds/wildlife
- be good for sports
- be good in low light
- be good at higher iso (to keep the shutter speed fast)
- have good IQ/DR for bigger prints

There are 3 current technologies, APS-C, APS-H, FF

The difficulty here is that APS-C and FF fail on several points whereas APS-H is good (not excelling) at all of them

I believe that the EF-S issue can be discounted for a sports camera as the sports lens are all EF. Those with the high value EF-S lens would have a 70D which be at least as good as the 7D - perhaps with the same sensor as the 650D plus other enhancements

That leave APS-H as the easiest technology to use - as it has already been developed into the best sports camera, So trickling that technology down to the sports camera would cost least, be quick to get to market and give Canon a high profit body (due to the low R&D)

[Wild]

Make the 70d a 7dii-equivalent, but price it a few hundred less than the FF entry level camera, and everybody is happy (including Canon since they won't have two cameras at the same price competing for sales).

Won't happen. The 60D has become the "joke" of the Canon EOS bodies (I have seen it being called "The Rebel that should have been") compared to features found on previous XXD bodies. (What? The 30D had 5 fps as well... wait, at least the 30D had a metal body...) Tell me what other Canon EOS body was DOWNGRADED and then UPGRADED to the flagship body.

Like I have said, the 7D was designed and marketed as the FLAGSHIP APS-C camera body and will remain so. Can anyone give me a reasonable reason why the 7D replacement (and continue the 7D name) will not continue this tradition?? Oh and what marketing strategy are you basing your logic on? Remember, marketing (sales based on previous bodies) is the only thing Canon will be concerned with when they make a APS-C replacement and if you don't believe me, then you going to be sadly dissapointed with your prediction(s).

The 60D was "downgraded" so AS NOT TO DIRECTLY COMPETE with the 7D. Fact, fact, fact...

So now why would the so called "future" 70D compete with the 7D OR it's replacement? Based on history, the 70D should be, "feature-wise" somewhere in the lines of the 40D or XSi.... Makes sense to me. I mean why not? The new T4i is darn near a 60D in a slightly smaller body, so where does that leave the 70D? 7D status? They already have a 7D status camera body, THE 7D!!!

D

Let's just assume here for a second (this is a rumors site here so cut me some slack) that if and when the D600 is released at around $1500 (the D800 rumors of $3K were spot on if you remember) that Canon will more than likely release a new body to compete.  All signs point to an entry-level FF anyways so it's more than likely to compete on pricing.  So if Canon does release this body in the $1500-$2000 range, they're going to release a new version of the 7D in the same exact price range, if not more?  That just doesn't make much sense - from a marketing stand point. I mean there's already enough confusion for consumers as it stands now, let alone if they release two more new bodies, one with the superior FF sensor with less features and one with an aps-c sensor with more features, at nearly the same price. Just doesn't add up if you look at it from a pricing perspective.

A 70d bump into the premium aps-c spot in the lineup makes sense.  If they did however progress both the 60d and 7d with aps-c sensors, then what?  A $850 T4i, a $1500ish 70d, and a $2000ish 7dii? Doesn't add up with a prospective entry-level FF (unless of course Canon's answer to the D600 is a $2700 6D FF camera) 

[Wild]

That leaves APS-H as the easiest technology to use - as it has already been developed into the best sports camera, So trickling that technology down to the sports camera would cost least, be quick to get to market and give Canon a high profit body (due to the low R&D)

I'm right there with ya on the 70d being able to be bumped up to the 7d's spot, and that an aps-h sensor'd body would be a great alternative for the affordable pro sports camera, rather than another aps-c body.

Also, they bumped the 1d series up to FF, why can't they bump the 7d up to aps-h?  Sounds reasonable to me...then again when has that ever mattered? 

[lola]

If D600 is announced with the rumored specs and a price tag of $1500, there's no salvation for Canon after that. Fanboys were always good with finding blind excuses for dynamic range, resolution and stuff but I wonder what they'll say for the presumably good full-frame D600 with a $1500 price tag...

[Birdshooter]

Who cares about Full Frame. Not me that is for sure.
I would like a camera 7D style APS-C with better AF and better noise control. The 7D itself is already a terrific body.

When going to FF it means that I will have to invest in glass as well. More mm to get the same VOF. Don't give me the crap of adding extenders because:

• A) Already using extenders
• B) With extenders you will loose a stop of light (or two), but more important, you will loose AF speed and accuracy

Example the 300 F4 on an APS-C wil give you 480mm F4. This lens costs USD 1,500
To get the same VOF and aperture, you will need the 500 F4. This lens is just USD 9,000

Just explain to me why an wildlife photographer shooting birds would want to go FF. Why?

[briansquibb]

Who cares about Full Frame. Not me that is for sure.
I would like a camera 7D style APS-C with better AF and better noise control. The 7D itself is already a terrific body.

When going to FF it means that I will have to invest in glass as well. More mm to get the same VOF. Don't give me the crap of adding extenders because:

• A) Already using extenders
• B) With extenders you will loose a stop of light (or two), but more important, you will loose AF speed and accuracy

Example the 300 F4 on an APS-C wil give you 480mm F4. This lens costs USD 1,500
To get the same VOF and aperture, you will need the 500 F4. This lens is just USD 9,000

Just explain to me why an wildlife photographer shooting birds would want to go FF. Why?

This is why there is the suggestion of an APS-H sensor in the same body. The better high iso performance allows you to keep the shutter speed up at dawn and dusk. The equivalent lens to the 300  f/4 would be the 400 f/5.8 at a simillar cost.