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Author Topic: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6  (Read 81418 times)

unfocused

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #150 on: June 19, 2012, 10:49:51 AM »
Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies.  According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?

2) Canon and Nikon need to merge their second tier crop bodies with their flagship crop bodies. Why? Both seem to have found their markets and sell very well. As long as both companies recover their costs and make a profit on both bodies, what incentive is there to merge them?

3) There isn't enough room for differentiation between the 70D and 7DII. This is basically a variant of #2, but it is patently false. There is already a significant gap in features and construction between the 60D and 7D. The upgrade path for each is pretty clear: 70D inherits most of the features of the 7D, but retains the same body construction and style; 7DII inherits most of the features of the 5DIII but retains the APS-C sensor. Still plenty to differentiate them both and the full frame differentiates the 5DIII and the 7D II.

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. Probably the most childish and irrational of the points. Who says? It's Canon's company and they can use any designation they want. It's a marketing tool and just like the "L" lens designation, it means whatever Canon wants it to mean. As their use of "L" demonstrates, they don't feel the need to be consistent in anything except that the designation means a higher price.

5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.

6) Canon wants to move everyone to full frame. Well, yes, they said that several years ago. That's good marketing language, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back it up. And, frankly, wouldn't it make more sense for Canon and Nikon to try to move their enthusiast, prosumer and professional markets to two bodies instead of just one. Having a top of the line 7DII and an entry-level full frame just gives them an opportunity to sell more cameras to the same customers.

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

(As an aside, how they do that, I think is pretty clear. They will do it the same way they differentiate the 60D from the 7D: Construction. The full framer will likely be an overgrown 60D in a similar composite body with a weaker autofocus and slower frame rate, but with a nifty swivel screen)

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #150 on: June 19, 2012, 10:49:51 AM »

KyleSTL

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #151 on: June 19, 2012, 11:00:09 AM »
the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

I don't think I can buy this argument.  first of all, you left out the 10-22.  All three are high dollar S lenses which equal or approach L optical quality in a less expensive build quality.  serious APS-C body users will have one and usually two out of the three 
Quote

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses

well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass.  Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body,  making that investment suddenly useless.  Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.
Canon is certainly able to produce cheap, FF AF lenses.  They did it for 13 years before ever releasing a single digital body.  Who's to say that Canon couldn't or won't produce a decent 24-85mm non-L IS, or 20-35mm, or 18-35 non-L given the right body to go along with it.  There are tons of reasonable quality used lenses on the market (20-35mm f/3.5-4.5, 24-85 f/3.5-4.5, 28-105mm f/3.5-5.6, both 70-210mm lenses, 75-300 IS, 70-300 IS) that would go well with an affordable FF camera if/when released, and I'm sure Canon could do better after such a camera is made.
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dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #152 on: June 19, 2012, 11:24:52 AM »
The APS-H is a compromise for everyone.  Those who want "reach" don't want to drop down to 1.3x, and those who want FF benefits don't want to, well, drop down to 1.3x.  It should die.
well it is a compromise, but not for everyone. APS-H would fill the same niche that it does today, which is a very good compromise/mix between reach and IQ/ISO/noise, esp in certain wildlife situations that have been mentioned.  With sufficient APS-C advances in IQ of course, the need for H will diminish, and that could be what Canon is marching towards or even trying to accelerate.

in any case, the arguments against "H" have not yet credibly addressed the market needs of those currently served by it, imho anyway.  Unless it is "7D2 will be killer APS-C with great low-light IQ, and the pro togs will be proud to carry that along side the 1DX"  :D

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #153 on: June 19, 2012, 11:28:28 AM »
well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass.  Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body,  making that investment suddenly useless.  Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.

They also forget the 8-15 fisheye, 14mm, 16-34 and 17mm TSE and that the 24-70/24-105 that cover the same as their lower grade ef-s lens

bdunbar79

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #154 on: June 19, 2012, 11:39:49 AM »
Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.
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briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #155 on: June 19, 2012, 11:44:30 AM »
Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

distant.star

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #156 on: June 19, 2012, 11:45:17 AM »
.
Wow.

Amen to that!


Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies.  According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?

2) Canon and Nikon need to merge their second tier crop bodies with their flagship crop bodies. Why? Both seem to have found their markets and sell very well. As long as both companies recover their costs and make a profit on both bodies, what incentive is there to merge them?

3) There isn't enough room for differentiation between the 70D and 7DII. This is basically a variant of #2, but it is patently false. There is already a significant gap in features and construction between the 60D and 7D. The upgrade path for each is pretty clear: 70D inherits most of the features of the 7D, but retains the same body construction and style; 7DII inherits most of the features of the 5DIII but retains the APS-C sensor. Still plenty to differentiate them both and the full frame differentiates the 5DIII and the 7D II.

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. Probably the most childish and irrational of the points. Who says? It's Canon's company and they can use any designation they want. It's a marketing tool and just like the "L" lens designation, it means whatever Canon wants it to mean. As their use of "L" demonstrates, they don't feel the need to be consistent in anything except that the designation means a higher price.

5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.

6) Canon wants to move everyone to full frame. Well, yes, they said that several years ago. That's good marketing language, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back it up. And, frankly, wouldn't it make more sense for Canon and Nikon to try to move their enthusiast, prosumer and professional markets to two bodies instead of just one. Having a top of the line 7DII and an entry-level full frame just gives them an opportunity to sell more cameras to the same customers.

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

(As an aside, how they do that, I think is pretty clear. They will do it the same way they differentiate the 60D from the 7D: Construction. The full framer will likely be an overgrown 60D in a similar composite body with a weaker autofocus and slower frame rate, but with a nifty swivel screen)
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #156 on: June 19, 2012, 11:45:17 AM »

bdunbar79

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #157 on: June 19, 2012, 12:04:17 PM »
Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

What I meant was, if the sensor changes, why would it be a 7D Mark II?  It wouldn't be a "Mark II", it would be a different model.  Otherwise, I can't make sense of it.
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briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #158 on: June 19, 2012, 12:21:19 PM »
Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

What I meant was, if the sensor changes, why would it be a 7D Mark II?  It wouldn't be a "Mark II", it would be a different model.  Otherwise, I can't make sense of it.

I agree a different sensor would make more sense with a different number - 2,3,4,6,8 and 9 are free  ;D

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #159 on: June 19, 2012, 01:20:14 PM »
Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

Well I dont' pay much attention to random silliness :D  so some these I've never even heard of.  for example:
Quote

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation.

even on a rumor site, this one isn't even worth typing in "canonrumors.com" to read :D

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #160 on: June 19, 2012, 01:28:30 PM »
I agree a different sensor would make more sense with a different number - 2,3,4,6,8 and 9 are free  ;D

although... When canon introduced a different sensor back in 2002, they kept the same integer :D  I guess 10 years later they decided not to do that anymore  :P

Albi86

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #161 on: June 19, 2012, 01:37:53 PM »


Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.



Bingo.
This is why, IMHO, if the D600 keeps faith to its spec/price rumours, the 5D3 will become Canon's entry level. They will price it at around 10% more than the D600, and that will be it.

Marine03

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #162 on: June 19, 2012, 01:48:34 PM »


Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.



Bingo.
This is why, IMHO, if the D600 keeps faith to its spec/price rumours, the 5D3 will become Canon's entry level. They will price it at around 10% more than the D600, and that will be it.

10% more than D600 would be 1650 if the rumor of 1500 is correct and cannon is not going to drop the price of the 5D3 almost 2 grand in a year. no, but they might release a FF for 1900 that is cheaper construction, hopefully not too much slower in the FPS and with a 19pt AF or something like that and just in firm ware limit the Max ISO to be 25% lower than the 5D3
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #162 on: June 19, 2012, 01:48:34 PM »

TTMartin

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #163 on: June 19, 2012, 02:03:17 PM »
Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies.  According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?

2) Canon and Nikon need to merge their second tier crop bodies with their flagship crop bodies. Why? Both seem to have found their markets and sell very well. As long as both companies recover their costs and make a profit on both bodies, what incentive is there to merge them?

3) There isn't enough room for differentiation between the 70D and 7DII. This is basically a variant of #2, but it is patently false. There is already a significant gap in features and construction between the 60D and 7D. The upgrade path for each is pretty clear: 70D inherits most of the features of the 7D, but retains the same body construction and style; 7DII inherits most of the features of the 5DIII but retains the APS-C sensor. Still plenty to differentiate them both and the full frame differentiates the 5DIII and the 7D II.

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. Probably the most childish and irrational of the points. Who says? It's Canon's company and they can use any designation they want. It's a marketing tool and just like the "L" lens designation, it means whatever Canon wants it to mean. As their use of "L" demonstrates, they don't feel the need to be consistent in anything except that the designation means a higher price.

5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.

6) Canon wants to move everyone to full frame. Well, yes, they said that several years ago. That's good marketing language, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back it up. And, frankly, wouldn't it make more sense for Canon and Nikon to try to move their enthusiast, prosumer and professional markets to two bodies instead of just one. Having a top of the line 7DII and an entry-level full frame just gives them an opportunity to sell more cameras to the same customers.

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

(As an aside, how they do that, I think is pretty clear. They will do it the same way they differentiate the 60D from the 7D: Construction. The full framer will likely be an overgrown 60D in a similar composite body with a weaker autofocus and slower frame rate, but with a nifty swivel screen)

Agree, this is why I think the 70D will be a full frame enthusiast’s camera, composite body, nifty swivel screen, pop-up flashy with off camera flash control.

It will probably have a lower frame rate than the D600, but, be better optimised for video, with a hybrid sensor (full frame version of the T4i's sensor) and support for auto focus during video and STM lenses.

Price will be higher than the D600, but, will still sell better due to the better feature set.

edit: And if Nikon touts the D600 as being a ‘Pro’ camera, Canon can market the 70D as the ‘first’ full frame enthusiast’s camera. If Nikon touts the D600 as an enthusiast’s camera, then the 70D moniker matches.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 02:20:29 PM by TTMartin »
Tom

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #164 on: June 19, 2012, 02:58:22 PM »
5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.


Of course we know the differences between a flagship APS-C and an entry-level FF, but that's not the point. We're the 1% who follow this stuff every day.  For the average consumer, they're going to walk into a Best Buy and have two options with vastly different feature sets for a similar price.

Can you imagine a 16 year old Best Buy rep trying to explain the differences between the two bodies at a store?  It'd probably go something like this:

Joe: "These two bodies are basically the same price, what's the difference?"
Best Buy kid: "Well....ummm....hang on a sec.  Wait! It says right here that this 6D has 22 megapixels and this 7D mark II only has 18 megapixels. So obviously the 6D is better."
Joe: "Oh cool! 22 megapixels sounds great!  But what's this thing about 10 FPS on the 7D mark II? What does FPS stand for?"
Best Buy kid: "Ummmm....hang on....I'm not seeing anything on the display about that, but I'm pretty sure it just means it's a little bit better at blocking out the sun than the other one."
Joe: "Well that won't be a problem because I always wear sunglasses."
Best Buy kid: "Well then it looks like the 22 megapixel one is the way to go!"
Joe: "Sounds good to me!  Hang on a sec though, I'm going to put a picture of my new camera on Instagram."


In all seriousness though, I think you're right that they can co-exist, I just think it will be more difficult to do if Canon tries to squeeze three new bodies in between the T4i and the 5D mark III without stealing some of the 5D's thunder.

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #164 on: June 19, 2012, 02:58:22 PM »