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Author Topic: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6  (Read 52018 times)

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #165 on: June 19, 2012, 10:31:04 AM »
...I am not sure I see the XXD becoming FF. Reason? It's the same reason why the XD line will not become FF, too many XXD owners and XD owners have EF-s lenses. An upgrade HAS to be justified by the buyer and if the upgrade cannot use ones current hardware, what's the point of upgrading?

Example, the 5D line has ALWAYS been FF, just as the Rebel line has ALWAYS been APS-C and so on and so on. Canon intergrated two high performance lines (1Ds and 1D) for the better, BUT APS-H bodies CANNOT use EF-s lenses SO, it makes sense to upgrade to the newer body.

I forsee the XXD and XD line becoming the new flagship APS-C camera (into the 7DII) and a new 5 series (or 3D) FF entry level. Canon will likely stay within current camera labels or create new ones (I.E. 3D or 6D) Simple marketing is my reasoning, they will likely keep the current tried and proven trends going.

D

nothing wrong with your reasoning;  I would just bring in the following factors that seem to get left out of the discussions:

1.  Canon has already telegraphed a willingness to shake up what has "always" been, in the product line, by merging the 1D and 1DS.   So names like 7D2 and 7DX could appear, even at the same time, or some new integer that hasn't been used before. 

2.  The "glass" impact in (1) above for the 1D folks is not trivial.  these guys have to either buy more glass and/or produce lower res shots by cropping.  This is no insignificant thing especially for birds and small wildlife.  make no mistake:  the distance-constrained situation does actually happen, in spite of all the comments from those are speaking without experience.   

3.  Canon has not yet telegraphed how they will maintain their stated commitment to pro wildlife market

These factors leave lots of room to speculate on how Canon will fulfill (3) above.  I see two possibilities

1.  APS-H is out:  pretty clear;  7D2 re-asserted as flagship crop body in APS-C and the pro togs carry a 7D2 as a second body.  I'm still not sure there is room for four APS-C bodies... but thats another subject

2.  APS-H is in: no matter what the new H body may be called, there will still be a premier APS-C body, so current 7D owners will have a choice to upgrade to the latest APS-C or have both H and C bodies to preserve their EF-S investment. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 01:09:57 PM by dlleno »

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #165 on: June 19, 2012, 10:31:04 AM »

pknight

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #166 on: June 19, 2012, 10:49:03 AM »
The APS-H is a compromise for everyone.  Those who want "reach" don't want to drop down to 1.3x, and those who want FF benefits don't want to, well, drop down to 1.3x.  It should die.

unfocused

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #167 on: June 19, 2012, 10:49:51 AM »
Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies.  According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?

2) Canon and Nikon need to merge their second tier crop bodies with their flagship crop bodies. Why? Both seem to have found their markets and sell very well. As long as both companies recover their costs and make a profit on both bodies, what incentive is there to merge them?

3) There isn't enough room for differentiation between the 70D and 7DII. This is basically a variant of #2, but it is patently false. There is already a significant gap in features and construction between the 60D and 7D. The upgrade path for each is pretty clear: 70D inherits most of the features of the 7D, but retains the same body construction and style; 7DII inherits most of the features of the 5DIII but retains the APS-C sensor. Still plenty to differentiate them both and the full frame differentiates the 5DIII and the 7D II.

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. Probably the most childish and irrational of the points. Who says? It's Canon's company and they can use any designation they want. It's a marketing tool and just like the "L" lens designation, it means whatever Canon wants it to mean. As their use of "L" demonstrates, they don't feel the need to be consistent in anything except that the designation means a higher price.

5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.

6) Canon wants to move everyone to full frame. Well, yes, they said that several years ago. That's good marketing language, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back it up. And, frankly, wouldn't it make more sense for Canon and Nikon to try to move their enthusiast, prosumer and professional markets to two bodies instead of just one. Having a top of the line 7DII and an entry-level full frame just gives them an opportunity to sell more cameras to the same customers.

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

(As an aside, how they do that, I think is pretty clear. They will do it the same way they differentiate the 60D from the 7D: Construction. The full framer will likely be an overgrown 60D in a similar composite body with a weaker autofocus and slower frame rate, but with a nifty swivel screen)
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KyleSTL

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #168 on: June 19, 2012, 11:00:09 AM »
the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

I don't think I can buy this argument.  first of all, you left out the 10-22.  All three are high dollar S lenses which equal or approach L optical quality in a less expensive build quality.  serious APS-C body users will have one and usually two out of the three 
Quote

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses

well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass.  Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body,  making that investment suddenly useless.  Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.
Canon is certainly able to produce cheap, FF AF lenses.  They did it for 13 years before ever releasing a single digital body.  Who's to say that Canon couldn't or won't produce a decent 24-85mm non-L IS, or 20-35mm, or 18-35 non-L given the right body to go along with it.  There are tons of reasonable quality used lenses on the market (20-35mm f/3.5-4.5, 24-85 f/3.5-4.5, 28-105mm f/3.5-5.6, both 70-210mm lenses, 75-300 IS, 70-300 IS) that would go well with an affordable FF camera if/when released, and I'm sure Canon could do better after such a camera is made.
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dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #169 on: June 19, 2012, 11:24:52 AM »
The APS-H is a compromise for everyone.  Those who want "reach" don't want to drop down to 1.3x, and those who want FF benefits don't want to, well, drop down to 1.3x.  It should die.
well it is a compromise, but not for everyone. APS-H would fill the same niche that it does today, which is a very good compromise/mix between reach and IQ/ISO/noise, esp in certain wildlife situations that have been mentioned.  With sufficient APS-C advances in IQ of course, the need for H will diminish, and that could be what Canon is marching towards or even trying to accelerate.

in any case, the arguments against "H" have not yet credibly addressed the market needs of those currently served by it, imho anyway.  Unless it is "7D2 will be killer APS-C with great low-light IQ, and the pro togs will be proud to carry that along side the 1DX"  :D

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #170 on: June 19, 2012, 11:28:28 AM »
well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass.  Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body,  making that investment suddenly useless.  Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.

They also forget the 8-15 fisheye, 14mm, 16-34 and 17mm TSE and that the 24-70/24-105 that cover the same as their lower grade ef-s lens

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #171 on: June 19, 2012, 11:39:49 AM »
Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #171 on: June 19, 2012, 11:39:49 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #172 on: June 19, 2012, 11:44:30 AM »
Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

distant.star

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #173 on: June 19, 2012, 11:45:17 AM »
.
Wow.

Amen to that!


Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies.  According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?

2) Canon and Nikon need to merge their second tier crop bodies with their flagship crop bodies. Why? Both seem to have found their markets and sell very well. As long as both companies recover their costs and make a profit on both bodies, what incentive is there to merge them?

3) There isn't enough room for differentiation between the 70D and 7DII. This is basically a variant of #2, but it is patently false. There is already a significant gap in features and construction between the 60D and 7D. The upgrade path for each is pretty clear: 70D inherits most of the features of the 7D, but retains the same body construction and style; 7DII inherits most of the features of the 5DIII but retains the APS-C sensor. Still plenty to differentiate them both and the full frame differentiates the 5DIII and the 7D II.

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. Probably the most childish and irrational of the points. Who says? It's Canon's company and they can use any designation they want. It's a marketing tool and just like the "L" lens designation, it means whatever Canon wants it to mean. As their use of "L" demonstrates, they don't feel the need to be consistent in anything except that the designation means a higher price.

5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.

6) Canon wants to move everyone to full frame. Well, yes, they said that several years ago. That's good marketing language, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back it up. And, frankly, wouldn't it make more sense for Canon and Nikon to try to move their enthusiast, prosumer and professional markets to two bodies instead of just one. Having a top of the line 7DII and an entry-level full frame just gives them an opportunity to sell more cameras to the same customers.

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

(As an aside, how they do that, I think is pretty clear. They will do it the same way they differentiate the 60D from the 7D: Construction. The full framer will likely be an overgrown 60D in a similar composite body with a weaker autofocus and slower frame rate, but with a nifty swivel screen)
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #174 on: June 19, 2012, 12:04:17 PM »
Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

What I meant was, if the sensor changes, why would it be a 7D Mark II?  It wouldn't be a "Mark II", it would be a different model.  Otherwise, I can't make sense of it.
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briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #175 on: June 19, 2012, 12:21:19 PM »
Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

What I meant was, if the sensor changes, why would it be a 7D Mark II?  It wouldn't be a "Mark II", it would be a different model.  Otherwise, I can't make sense of it.

I agree a different sensor would make more sense with a different number - 2,3,4,6,8 and 9 are free  ;D

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #176 on: June 19, 2012, 01:20:14 PM »
Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

Well I dont' pay much attention to random silliness :D  so some these I've never even heard of.  for example:
Quote

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation.

even on a rumor site, this one isn't even worth typing in "canonrumors.com" to read :D

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #177 on: June 19, 2012, 01:28:30 PM »
I agree a different sensor would make more sense with a different number - 2,3,4,6,8 and 9 are free  ;D

although... When canon introduced a different sensor back in 2002, they kept the same integer :D  I guess 10 years later they decided not to do that anymore  :P

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #177 on: June 19, 2012, 01:28:30 PM »

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #178 on: June 19, 2012, 01:37:53 PM »


Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.



Bingo.
This is why, IMHO, if the D600 keeps faith to its spec/price rumours, the 5D3 will become Canon's entry level. They will price it at around 10% more than the D600, and that will be it.

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #179 on: June 19, 2012, 01:48:34 PM »


Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.



Bingo.
This is why, IMHO, if the D600 keeps faith to its spec/price rumours, the 5D3 will become Canon's entry level. They will price it at around 10% more than the D600, and that will be it.

10% more than D600 would be 1650 if the rumor of 1500 is correct and cannon is not going to drop the price of the 5D3 almost 2 grand in a year. no, but they might release a FF for 1900 that is cheaper construction, hopefully not too much slower in the FPS and with a 19pt AF or something like that and just in firm ware limit the Max ISO to be 25% lower than the 5D3
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #179 on: June 19, 2012, 01:48:34 PM »