Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[TTMartin]

Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies.  According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?

2) Canon and Nikon need to merge their second tier crop bodies with their flagship crop bodies. Why? Both seem to have found their markets and sell very well. As long as both companies recover their costs and make a profit on both bodies, what incentive is there to merge them?

3) There isn't enough room for differentiation between the 70D and 7DII. This is basically a variant of #2, but it is patently false. There is already a significant gap in features and construction between the 60D and 7D. The upgrade path for each is pretty clear: 70D inherits most of the features of the 7D, but retains the same body construction and style; 7DII inherits most of the features of the 5DIII but retains the APS-C sensor. Still plenty to differentiate them both and the full frame differentiates the 5DIII and the 7D II.

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. Probably the most childish and irrational of the points. Who says? It's Canon's company and they can use any designation they want. It's a marketing tool and just like the "L" lens designation, it means whatever Canon wants it to mean. As their use of "L" demonstrates, they don't feel the need to be consistent in anything except that the designation means a higher price.

5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.

6) Canon wants to move everyone to full frame. Well, yes, they said that several years ago. That's good marketing language, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back it up. And, frankly, wouldn't it make more sense for Canon and Nikon to try to move their enthusiast, prosumer and professional markets to two bodies instead of just one. Having a top of the line 7DII and an entry-level full frame just gives them an opportunity to sell more cameras to the same customers.

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

(As an aside, how they do that, I think is pretty clear. They will do it the same way they differentiate the 60D from the 7D: Construction. The full framer will likely be an overgrown 60D in a similar composite body with a weaker autofocus and slower frame rate, but with a nifty swivel screen)

Agree, this is why I think the 70D will be a full frame enthusiast’s camera, composite body, nifty swivel screen, pop-up flashy with off camera flash control.

It will probably have a lower frame rate than the D600, but, be better optimised for video, with a hybrid sensor (full frame version of the T4i's sensor) and support for auto focus during video and STM lenses.

Price will be higher than the D600, but, will still sell better due to the better feature set.

edit: And if Nikon touts the D600 as being a ‘Pro’ camera, Canon can market the 70D as the ‘first’ full frame enthusiast’s camera. If Nikon touts the D600 as an enthusiast’s camera, then the 70D moniker matches.

[Wild]

5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.

Of course we know the differences between a flagship APS-C and an entry-level FF, but that's not the point. We're the 1% who follow this stuff every day.  For the average consumer, they're going to walk into a Best Buy and have two options with vastly different feature sets for a similar price.

Can you imagine a 16 year old Best Buy rep trying to explain the differences between the two bodies at a store?  It'd probably go something like this:

Joe: "These two bodies are basically the same price, what's the difference?"
Best Buy kid: "Well....ummm....hang on a sec.  Wait! It says right here that this 6D has 22 megapixels and this 7D mark II only has 18 megapixels. So obviously the 6D is better."
Joe: "Oh cool! 22 megapixels sounds great!  But what's this thing about 10 FPS on the 7D mark II? What does FPS stand for?"
Best Buy kid: "Ummmm....hang on....I'm not seeing anything on the display about that, but I'm pretty sure it just means it's a little bit better at blocking out the sun than the other one."
Joe: "Well that won't be a problem because I always wear sunglasses."
Best Buy kid: "Well then it looks like the 22 megapixel one is the way to go!"
Joe: "Sounds good to me!  Hang on a sec though, I'm going to put a picture of my new camera on Instagram."


In all seriousness though, I think you're right that they can co-exist, I just think it will be more difficult to do if Canon tries to squeeze three new bodies in between the T4i and the 5D mark III without stealing some of the 5D's thunder.

[Albi86]

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

Bingo.
This is why, IMHO, if the D600 keeps faith to its spec/price rumours, the 5D3 will become Canon's entry level. They will price it at around 10% more than the D600, and that will be it.

10% more than D600 would be 1650 if the rumor of 1500 is correct and cannon is not going to drop the price of the 5D3 almost 2 grand in a year. no, but they might release a FF for 1900 that is cheaper construction, hopefully not too much slower in the FPS and with a 19pt AF or something like that and just in firm ware limit the Max ISO to be 25% lower than the 5D3

Sorry, you're right. This is because I actually think the D600 will be priced around 2000$/1800€. So I guess the 5D3 will eventually drop to around 2200-2400$.

[briansquibb]

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

Bingo.
This is why, IMHO, if the D600 keeps faith to its spec/price rumours, the 5D3 will become Canon's entry level. They will price it at around 10% more than the D600, and that will be it.

10% more than D600 would be 1650 if the rumor of 1500 is correct and cannon is not going to drop the price of the 5D3 almost 2 grand in a year. no, but they might release a FF for 1900 that is cheaper construction, hopefully not too much slower in the FPS and with a 19pt AF or something like that and just in firm ware limit the Max ISO to be 25% lower than the 5D3

So that would be the 5DII then?

[Richard8971]

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

True, BUT like I have suggested already. Canon ALREADY has 7D owners who ALREADY have some EF-s lenses. The 7D upgrade will STILL use EF-s (APS-C), period. Otherwise what's the point of an upgrade? That is simple marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

The 1Ds line and 1D line was a logical merge even though one was APS-H. Why? Becuase BOTH bodies only use EF lenses! Nothing for a current 1Ds or 1D owner to LOOSE if they upgraded to the 1DX! Each camera (I.E. XXD, XD, XXXD...etc) is marketed to a certain group and Canon will continue to market each camera body to that group and BUDGET!

It's easy to justify a camera body upgrade IF it uses your current hardware, right? Otherwise there would have to be a SERIOUS NEED to upgrade a camera body if suddenly half of your equipment would not work with it!!! The 7D was designed to be the flagship APS-C camera and no one can give me a good reason to believe why Canon will dump the current flagship XD line in favor of a new flagship XXD line they just DOWNGRADED last year in the form of the 60D!

D

[briansquibb]

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

True, BUT like I have suggested already. Canon ALREADY has 7D owners who ALREADY have some EF-s lenses. The 7D upgrade will STILL use EF-s (APS-C), period. Otherwise what's the point of an upgrade? That is simple marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

The 1Ds line and 1D line was a logical merge even though one was APS-H. Why? Becuase BOTH bodies only use EF lenses! Nothing for a current 1Ds or 1D owner to LOOSE if they upgraded to the 1DX! Each camera (I.E. XXD, XD, XXXD...etc) is marketed to a certain group and Canon will continue to market each camera body to that group and BUDGET!

D

I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life??

What I was suggesting was that a 70D could be the upgraded 7D and that there would be a supersports camera introduced. I dont think it is important which sensor technology it utilises providing it meets the basic criteria.

I rather suspect that someone who needs a supersports/wildlife specialised camera would not be worrying about EF-S lens as their bag might already be full of large whites as there aren't any long EF-S lens.

[Richard8971]

I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life??

That isn't what I said, please reread my post.

I am simply looking from a MARKETING standpoint from Canon.. Why? They are the ones making the darn thing and then have to sell it to us!!!

An upgrade from one camera body to another HAS to make sense. A person who owns a APS-C camera will justify the costs to FF (or any camera body that ONLY uses EF lenses), IF they NEED the upgrade.

Otherwise, a person will stick to WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE AND CAN USE WITH THE HARDWARE THEY ALREADY OWN. Times are getting hard, extra money for high performance cameras (esp entry-level ones) is becomming hard to come by. Canon has to make decisions that make sense to future camera buyers AND people who already own cameras and Canon NEEDS them to upgrade, to buy current stock!

Don't know about you, but I work hard for my money and I am only willing to upgrade something if it works with what I already have OR the increased cost(s) are justified by my NEED.

A person who only uses their camera now and then will look at an upgrade differently than someone who makes MONEY with their camera. Unfortunately, the 7D is still aimed at "semi-pros"  and mainstream users, not professionals. The 7D does not fall under the "professional" catagory, even though it is one hell of a camera.

D

[briansquibb]

That isn't what I said, please reread my post.

I do beg your pardon I read

True, BUT like I have suggested already. Canon ALREADY has 7D owners who ALREADY have some EF-s lenses. The 7D upgrade will STILL use EF-s (APS-C), period. Otherwise what's the point of an upgrade? That is simple marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

as meaning that 7D users had no reason to upgrade to anything other than APS-C and that sensor changes (sic to APS-H/FF) were just a marketing ploy

[Richard8971]

The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line... ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player. (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C AND the flagship camera body, you can bank on it.

D

I hate quoting myself, but this is why I feel the way I do about any 7D replacement. (And why the XXD line will be merged into the XD line).

D

[Richard8971]

as meaning that 7D users had no reason to upgrade to anything other than APS-C and that sensor changes (sic to APS-H/FF) were just a marketing ploy

Yup. Otherwise why would Canon make lenses NOT compatible with FF bodies???

Why not just make ONE size sensor for ALL of your cameras, regardless of entry level or professional??? Come on...

D

[Richard8971]

I do beg your pardon I read

Then please don't make something out of what I said that wasn't there. I never said one was "stuck" into APS-C cameras. I simply said that an upgrade has to be justified (for whatever reason) for a person to fork out high $$$ to do so.

D

[briansquibb]

The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line... ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player. (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C AND the flagship camera body, you can bank on it.

D

I hate quoting myself, but this is why I feel the way I do about any 7D replacement. (And why the XXD line will be merged into the XD line).

D

I have never heard of the 7D being the early prototype 5DIII/1DX before and it surprises me especially as it was released not long after the 5DII and before the 1D4

The 7D being a flagship? Again an interesting term I wouldn't have associated with it as it has no 'pro' features. I always thought of the 7D as the camera that the 50D should have been :

- better sensor
- better AF
- better fps (the 50D was slower than the 50D)

[Forceflow]

The 7D being a flagship? Again an interesting term I wouldn't have associated with it as it has no 'pro' features.

Exactly what features do you consider to be 'pro'? After all the 7D is weather sealed, has a very high FPS, awesome AF, can trigger remote flashes and has a lot of features built in that seem to appeal to the pro folks. (Customization and 3 fully definable presets come to mind)

[briansquibb]

The 7D being a flagship? Again an interesting term I wouldn't have associated with it as it has no 'pro' features.

Exactly what features do you consider to be 'pro'? After all the 7D is weather sealed, has a very high FPS, awesome AF, can trigger remote flashes and has a lot of features built in that seem to appeal to the pro folks. (Customization and 3 fully definable presets come to mind)

- has weathersealing, not sealed
- fps is no more than high, 40D was 6.3fps, 7D is 8fps
- AF is adequate, certainly not  the best AF at the time
- customisation is limited
- high iso is poor in comparison to other bodies of the time

Top of the prosumer range - yes. Flagship I think not.

[Albi86]

So that would be the 5DII then?

What usually would be of cameras that were already old 3 years ago, I guess.