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Author Topic: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6  (Read 81423 times)

Albi86

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #165 on: June 19, 2012, 04:50:43 PM »


Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.



Bingo.
This is why, IMHO, if the D600 keeps faith to its spec/price rumours, the 5D3 will become Canon's entry level. They will price it at around 10% more than the D600, and that will be it.

10% more than D600 would be 1650 if the rumor of 1500 is correct and cannon is not going to drop the price of the 5D3 almost 2 grand in a year. no, but they might release a FF for 1900 that is cheaper construction, hopefully not too much slower in the FPS and with a 19pt AF or something like that and just in firm ware limit the Max ISO to be 25% lower than the 5D3

Sorry, you're right. This is because I actually think the D600 will be priced around 2000$/1800€. So I guess the 5D3 will eventually drop to around 2200-2400$.

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #165 on: June 19, 2012, 04:50:43 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #166 on: June 19, 2012, 05:08:20 PM »


Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.



Bingo.
This is why, IMHO, if the D600 keeps faith to its spec/price rumours, the 5D3 will become Canon's entry level. They will price it at around 10% more than the D600, and that will be it.

10% more than D600 would be 1650 if the rumor of 1500 is correct and cannon is not going to drop the price of the 5D3 almost 2 grand in a year. no, but they might release a FF for 1900 that is cheaper construction, hopefully not too much slower in the FPS and with a 19pt AF or something like that and just in firm ware limit the Max ISO to be 25% lower than the 5D3

So that would be the 5DII then?

Richard8971

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #167 on: June 20, 2012, 12:26:51 AM »
The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

True, BUT like I have suggested already. Canon ALREADY has 7D owners who ALREADY have some EF-s lenses. The 7D upgrade will STILL use EF-s (APS-C), period. Otherwise what's the point of an upgrade? That is simple marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

The 1Ds line and 1D line was a logical merge even though one was APS-H. Why? Becuase BOTH bodies only use EF lenses! Nothing for a current 1Ds or 1D owner to LOOSE if they upgraded to the 1DX! Each camera (I.E. XXD, XD, XXXD...etc) is marketed to a certain group and Canon will continue to market each camera body to that group and BUDGET!

It's easy to justify a camera body upgrade IF it uses your current hardware, right? Otherwise there would have to be a SERIOUS NEED to upgrade a camera body if suddenly half of your equipment would not work with it!!! The 7D was designed to be the flagship APS-C camera and no one can give me a good reason to believe why Canon will dump the current flagship XD line in favor of a new flagship XXD line they just DOWNGRADED last year in the form of the 60D!

D
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 12:31:37 AM by Richard8971 »
Canon 6D, 5D2, 7Dv2.03, 50D, 40D, T1i, XTi...XT (& lenses, flahses), various powershots... You get the idea... I have a problem. :)

Wife shoots Nikon, D7000, D7100, (lenses and flashes)... we constantly tease each other that our cameras are better than each others!

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #168 on: June 20, 2012, 12:37:33 AM »
The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

True, BUT like I have suggested already. Canon ALREADY has 7D owners who ALREADY have some EF-s lenses. The 7D upgrade will STILL use EF-s (APS-C), period. Otherwise what's the point of an upgrade? That is simple marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

The 1Ds line and 1D line was a logical merge even though one was APS-H. Why? Becuase BOTH bodies only use EF lenses! Nothing for a current 1Ds or 1D owner to LOOSE if they upgraded to the 1DX! Each camera (I.E. XXD, XD, XXXD...etc) is marketed to a certain group and Canon will continue to market each camera body to that group and BUDGET!

D

I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life??

What I was suggesting was that a 70D could be the upgraded 7D and that there would be a supersports camera introduced. I dont think it is important which sensor technology it utilises providing it meets the basic criteria.

I rather suspect that someone who needs a supersports/wildlife specialised camera would not be worrying about EF-S lens as their bag might already be full of large whites as there aren't any long EF-S lens.




Richard8971

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #169 on: June 20, 2012, 01:00:03 AM »
I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life??

That isn't what I said, please reread my post.

I am simply looking from a MARKETING standpoint from Canon.. Why? They are the ones making the darn thing and then have to sell it to us!!!

An upgrade from one camera body to another HAS to make sense. A person who owns a APS-C camera will justify the costs to FF (or any camera body that ONLY uses EF lenses), IF they NEED the upgrade.

Otherwise, a person will stick to WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE AND CAN USE WITH THE HARDWARE THEY ALREADY OWN. Times are getting hard, extra money for high performance cameras (esp entry-level ones) is becomming hard to come by. Canon has to make decisions that make sense to future camera buyers AND people who already own cameras and Canon NEEDS them to upgrade, to buy current stock!

Don't know about you, but I work hard for my money and I am only willing to upgrade something if it works with what I already have OR the increased cost(s) are justified by my NEED.

A person who only uses their camera now and then will look at an upgrade differently than someone who makes MONEY with their camera. Unfortunately, the 7D is still aimed at "semi-pros"  and mainstream users, not professionals. The 7D does not fall under the "professional" catagory, even though it is one hell of a camera.

D
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 01:19:40 AM by Richard8971 »
Canon 6D, 5D2, 7Dv2.03, 50D, 40D, T1i, XTi...XT (& lenses, flahses), various powershots... You get the idea... I have a problem. :)

Wife shoots Nikon, D7000, D7100, (lenses and flashes)... we constantly tease each other that our cameras are better than each others!

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #170 on: June 20, 2012, 01:22:06 AM »


That isn't what I said, please reread my post.


I do beg your pardon I read

Quote
True, BUT like I have suggested already. Canon ALREADY has 7D owners who ALREADY have some EF-s lenses. The 7D upgrade will STILL use EF-s (APS-C), period. Otherwise what's the point of an upgrade? That is simple marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

as meaning that 7D users had no reason to upgrade to anything other than APS-C and that sensor changes (sic to APS-H/FF) were just a marketing ploy

Richard8971

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #171 on: June 20, 2012, 01:26:26 AM »
The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line... :( ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player. :) (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C AND the flagship camera body, you can bank on it.

D

I hate quoting myself, but this is why I feel the way I do about any 7D replacement. (And why the XXD line will be merged into the XD line).

D
Canon 6D, 5D2, 7Dv2.03, 50D, 40D, T1i, XTi...XT (& lenses, flahses), various powershots... You get the idea... I have a problem. :)

Wife shoots Nikon, D7000, D7100, (lenses and flashes)... we constantly tease each other that our cameras are better than each others!

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #171 on: June 20, 2012, 01:26:26 AM »

Richard8971

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #172 on: June 20, 2012, 01:28:34 AM »
as meaning that 7D users had no reason to upgrade to anything other than APS-C and that sensor changes (sic to APS-H/FF) were just a marketing ploy

Yup. Otherwise why would Canon make lenses NOT compatible with FF bodies???

Why not just make ONE size sensor for ALL of your cameras, regardless of entry level or professional??? Come on...

D
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 01:30:48 AM by Richard8971 »
Canon 6D, 5D2, 7Dv2.03, 50D, 40D, T1i, XTi...XT (& lenses, flahses), various powershots... You get the idea... I have a problem. :)

Wife shoots Nikon, D7000, D7100, (lenses and flashes)... we constantly tease each other that our cameras are better than each others!

Richard8971

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #173 on: June 20, 2012, 01:34:25 AM »
I do beg your pardon I read

Then please don't make something out of what I said that wasn't there. I never said one was "stuck" into APS-C cameras. I simply said that an upgrade has to be justified (for whatever reason) for a person to fork out high $$$ to do so.

D
Canon 6D, 5D2, 7Dv2.03, 50D, 40D, T1i, XTi...XT (& lenses, flahses), various powershots... You get the idea... I have a problem. :)

Wife shoots Nikon, D7000, D7100, (lenses and flashes)... we constantly tease each other that our cameras are better than each others!

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #174 on: June 20, 2012, 01:35:28 AM »
The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line... :( ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player. :) (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C AND the flagship camera body, you can bank on it.

D

I hate quoting myself, but this is why I feel the way I do about any 7D replacement. (And why the XXD line will be merged into the XD line).

D

I have never heard of the 7D being the early prototype 5DIII/1DX before and it surprises me especially as it was released not long after the 5DII and before the 1D4

The 7D being a flagship? Again an interesting term I wouldn't have associated with it as it has no 'pro' features. I always thought of the 7D as the camera that the 50D should have been :

- better sensor
- better AF
- better fps (the 50D was slower than the 50D)

Forceflow

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #175 on: June 20, 2012, 02:06:40 AM »
The 7D being a flagship? Again an interesting term I wouldn't have associated with it as it has no 'pro' features.

Exactly what features do you consider to be 'pro'? After all the 7D is weather sealed, has a very high FPS, awesome AF, can trigger remote flashes and has a lot of features built in that seem to appeal to the pro folks. (Customization and 3 fully definable presets come to mind)
Canon 7D - Canon 50mm 1.8 - Canon 24-70mm 2.8 L - Canon 100-400mm 4.5-5.6 L IS - SIGMA 85mm 1.4 - SIGMA 150mm 2.8 OS Macro - SIGMA 10-20mm 3,5

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #176 on: June 20, 2012, 02:14:10 AM »
The 7D being a flagship? Again an interesting term I wouldn't have associated with it as it has no 'pro' features.

Exactly what features do you consider to be 'pro'? After all the 7D is weather sealed, has a very high FPS, awesome AF, can trigger remote flashes and has a lot of features built in that seem to appeal to the pro folks. (Customization and 3 fully definable presets come to mind)

- has weathersealing, not sealed
- fps is no more than high, 40D was 6.3fps, 7D is 8fps
- AF is adequate, certainly not  the best AF at the time
- customisation is limited
- high iso is poor in comparison to other bodies of the time

Top of the prosumer range - yes. Flagship I think not.

Albi86

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #177 on: June 20, 2012, 03:57:19 AM »


So that would be the 5DII then?

What usually would be of cameras that were already old 3 years ago, I guess.

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #177 on: June 20, 2012, 03:57:19 AM »

ThomasN

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #178 on: June 20, 2012, 04:33:22 AM »
After reading this thread, I don't quite know what to think.

I did earlier write:

Canon must get their house in order

Entry level FF will be called 6D not 7DII because Canon will kill the 7D APS-C by making it FF and will not have the possibility to get back to 7D APS-C on a later time if that should fit into the lineup.
An entry level 6D makes sense.
And put the 7D to sleep and put the features into 70D, and let th 70D again be the top of the APS-C line.

This gives us this perfect lineup

1D Top of the line pro camera
3D (name saved for 3D video DSLR for movie use)
4D 46MP (or so) studio and pro 4K video camera
5D wedding and architect camera
6D Entry level FF
70D Top of the APS-C line (prosumer)
xxxD Top amateur APS-C line
xxxxD entry level DSLR


So on one hand something tells me that there will be no 7DII.
And then a 70D with all the 7D features, but improved, 22MP, better ISO, IQ, AF and DR, video features from the 650D and so on.
Nikon has just launched the D3200 with 24MP and we know marketing(Canon and all other) would love to appeal to the megapixel freaks. Not that you can compare the D3200 and a feature 70D/7DII.
Nikon is properly the main competitor and Nikon do have 4 lines: DX, DXX, DXXX and DXXXX though it’s mixed together and messy. Therefore it makes sense that Canon still has 4 lines: XD, XXD, XXXD and XXXXD (some order, please )
 
On the other hand the 7D has a very good position and brand  in the market and that speaks for a 7DII showing up and Canon may therefore give still room for an APS-C camera in the FF proff line?
 
What do you guys think?  :)

But whatever it will be called I would very much like the new 7DII/70D to be something like this:

Approx. 22 MP APS-C CMOS
ISO 100 – 25600
8-10 fps
Wireless EyeFi
1920x1080 (60, 30, 25 fps)
Hybrid AF
Stereo mic
2x Digic 5
SDXD and CF UDMA
Mid-size Magnesium alloy weather sealed body
OLED 3,2” 1.040.000 screen

This wouldn’t cannibalize from 1DX due to non-FF, lower ISO, lower fps an so on.
And if someone will say: but this is a wish liste. Yes sorry, you will be right.
But it would be an awesome killer camera and would beat all the competitors out in to the cold for many years.   ;D 
 
And I will like to apologize for my notes with the veeeery big letters on page 7. I did not mean to be rude.  :-[

PS! Concerning  APS-H.
I don’t think we will see a news APS-H. The technology today is so sophisticated that Canon will rather please the EF-S owners and use a new APS-C (and don’t use the APS-H.)
And more importent the economic synergy in letting the XXD, XXXD and XXXXD inherit the APS-C over time is too tempting.
2xA1+Power winders A, T70+a lot of glass for those,
EOS 20D+BGE2N and 40D+WFT-E1A, 580EX, 17-85 f/4.0-5.6 IS USM, 18-200 f/3.5-5.6 IS and 70-200 f/2,8L IS USM and a lot of gears and gizmos
Still waiting for 7D2 . . . . . . .

aznable

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #179 on: June 20, 2012, 04:52:08 AM »
and it has to cost less than 1000€ to be competitive  ::)

so let's start with a price list

xxxxD 400€
xxxD 700€
xxD 999€
XD 1500€-5800€

it doesnt make sense

Canon 1D Mark III - Canon 50D - sigma 24-70 EX DG - sigma 70-200 EX DG HSM OS - Sigma 50 Art

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #179 on: June 20, 2012, 04:52:08 AM »