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Author Topic: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6  (Read 81256 times)

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #210 on: June 21, 2012, 01:23:12 AM »
Stepping back slightly from what has been discussed, Canon urgently needs to provide an viable upgrade path for its current users.  The Rebel DSLRs provided an affordable way for people such as myself to get interested in and then thoroughly addicted to digital photography.  I have had my 550D for near on two years and while I still enjoy using it I am itching to upgrade.  I am sure I am not alone.

The most frustrating aspects of my 550D are the poor low light performance, weak AF, low FPS and small buffer.  Neither the 7D nor the 5Dmkii provide a complete solution to my needs.  The 5Dmkiii does to an extent, but it is hard for me to justify spending that much money.  A 7D with better lowlight would be perfect and if they released it tomorrow I would buy it tomorrow. 

Right now everything between the 650D and the 5Dmkiii is just a bit tired and old.  Whatever it does (7Dmkii, 70D, 6D...whatever) Canon needs to do something quickly because right now it just seems to be floundering.         

They announced the 650D recently and there is a CR2 for 4 more cameras this year.

A used 1D3 might be a good option - has everything except large mps - and are going for the price of a 650D

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #210 on: June 21, 2012, 01:23:12 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #211 on: June 21, 2012, 01:28:10 AM »

this happened with the 7D too it got heaps of goodies that the 1D and 5D lines missed out on

What the 1D missed out on cannot have been important as I haven't noticed it. The 1D4 was announced just after the 7D so I suspect it got everything


wickidwombat

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #212 on: June 21, 2012, 01:34:38 AM »

this happened with the 7D too it got heaps of goodies that the 1D and 5D lines missed out on

What the 1D missed out on cannot have been important as I haven't noticed it. The 1D4 was announced just after the 7D so I suspect it got everything

it didnt get a Mfn button :o or the snazy elctro VF thingo where you can turn on grid line and have the elctronic level, no built in flash commander. no IR trigger reciever
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briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #213 on: June 21, 2012, 01:40:56 AM »

this happened with the 7D too it got heaps of goodies that the 1D and 5D lines missed out on

What the 1D missed out on cannot have been important as I haven't noticed it. The 1D4 was announced just after the 7D so I suspect it got everything

it didnt get a Mfn button :o or the snazy elctro VF thingo where you can turn on grid line and have the elctronic level, no built in flash commander. no IR trigger reciever

I have never used those on the 7D  ::) ::) ::)

I can see the benefit of the electronic level

wickidwombat

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #214 on: June 21, 2012, 01:43:48 AM »
just sayin :P
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briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #215 on: June 21, 2012, 01:49:46 AM »
just sayin :P

I tend to use the same controls on all the bodies so this little differences get ignored

My brain cant cope with the 'which camera am I using today' analysis  ;D ;D ;D

wickidwombat

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #216 on: June 21, 2012, 02:12:55 AM »
just sayin :P

I tend to use the same controls on all the bodies so this little differences get ignored

My brain cant cope with the 'which camera am I using today' analysis  ;D ;D ;D
yeah try the image review and zooming on any other camera and then swapping to the 5Dmk3 and back

drives one absolutely nuts i tell ya :P
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #216 on: June 21, 2012, 02:12:55 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #217 on: June 21, 2012, 02:16:55 AM »
just sayin :P

I tend to use the same controls on all the bodies so this little differences get ignored

My brain cant cope with the 'which camera am I using today' analysis  ;D ;D ;D
yeah try the image review and zooming on any other camera and then swapping to the 5Dmk3 and back

drives one absolutely nuts i tell ya :P

... and changing iso in flight.

1D4 is set for auto iso, my others aren't

IIRC the 5DIII is different again  ???

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #218 on: June 21, 2012, 09:00:11 AM »
I think the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that if you buy APS-C then you are locked into it for life?
Only if you buy EF-S lenses. However, many of us buy EF (L) lenses and those work on FF as well. The advantage of APS-C (and the prosumer/pro 7D) is that you can get a much longer reach.


The "reach" APS-C argument doesn't really belong in the same room with the EF-S lens compatibility argument.  with the possible exception of the bargin zoom, 55-250 or whatever it is, the folks who want "reach" don't buy EF-S long lenses -- they buy long "L" glass,  and after market FF compatible long lenses.

  The only practical value to  the EF-S compatibility argument is for the WA and UWAs -- the 10-22s and the 17-55s and the 15-85s  -- where a significant investment has been already made, both in $ and in IQ, that cannot be utilized in FF.  These folks have to either sell their EF-S lenses and re-invest, or keep the old APS-C body.  If one has invested in long EF-S glass, that investment is not very sizable.

Tell that to Canon, they keep making EF-s glass and some of it is expensive! I own some EF-s glass that I wouldn't trade for anything!

D

aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?

Richard8971

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #219 on: June 21, 2012, 09:53:36 AM »
aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?

Who said my EF-s lenses were long reach? They make other EF-s lenses. If I choose to spend any amount of $$$ on ANY lens, regardless of EF or EF-s, you better believe I thought it out first and will use it until it dies!

D
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Wife shoots Nikon, D7000, D7100, (lenses and flashes)... we constantly tease each other that our cameras are better than each others!

neuroanatomist

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #220 on: June 21, 2012, 10:17:06 AM »
Who said my EF-s lenses were long reach? They make other EF-s lenses. If I choose to spend any amount of $$$ on ANY lens, regardless of EF or EF-s, you better believe I thought it out first and will use it until it dies!

Which, of course, precludes a shift to exclusive use of a FF camera...

Personally, I had two high-end EF-S lenses - the EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 and the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS - which I used on my 7D.  After getting a 5DII and 16-35mm f/2.8L II, I sold the 10-22mm.  I use the 7D almost exclusively for birds/wildlife - I think I've mounted the 17-55mm all of twice in the past year.
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dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #221 on: June 21, 2012, 10:25:39 AM »
aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?

Who said my EF-s lenses were long reach? They make other EF-s lenses. If I choose to spend any amount of $$$ on ANY lens, regardless of EF or EF-s, you better believe I thought it out first and will use it until it dies!

D

sure, not very many of us invest in glass without thinking it through.  For example, I have invested in the 10-22 and the 17-55 and this is not a trivial investment, but necessasy to optimize IQ across all conditions with one camera body. So let me re-frame the background of my question -- I was just calling out that there are three major EF-S lenses which form the biggest case for an investment in EF-S glass that would give one pause in a migration to FF, and that an investment in LONG EF-S glass is not sizable.   I did think, initially, that your response implied an investment in long EF-S but I see your comment is a more general statement that one  one should account for examples other than what I mentioned.     

Not to trivialize anyones choices or investments I was just highlighting the biggest case representing the most likely IQ fanatics that have a sizable EF-S investment that would be most impacted by a move to FF and that Canon would be the most concerned about in their branding and upgrade paths.  What are the EF-S lenses you have?   

neuroanatomist

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #222 on: June 21, 2012, 10:34:38 AM »
After getting a 5DII and 16-35mm f/2.8L II, I sold the 10-22mm.

FWIW, after about a year of use I sold my 10-22mm for only $50 less than I paid when I bought it new from Amazon.  Pretty low barrier to moving to FF, IMO. 

A bigger barrier that some people cite is the cost to replace those lenses with their FF counterparts.  But I disagree - for the 10-22mm, even though I got the expensive 16-35 II, the 17-40mm is only 1mm less wide.  Likewise, there are a whole bunch of people who claim that there is no EF 'replacement' for the 17-55mm since the 24-105mm is a stop slower and the 24-70 does not have IS.  To that, I say false!!  The 'FF equivalent' of the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS would be a hypothetical 27-88mm f/4.5 IS lens - therefore, the 24-105mm on FF is wider, longer, and faster than the 17-55mm on APS-C (note: faster in terms of DoF for the same framing, but the 1.3-stop ISO advantage of FF more than makes up for the 1-stop loss of shutter speed, so really the only thing you lose is activation of the f/2.8 AF points).
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #222 on: June 21, 2012, 10:34:38 AM »

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #223 on: June 21, 2012, 10:49:45 AM »
After getting a 5DII and 16-35mm f/2.8L II, I sold the 10-22mm.

FWIW, after about a year of use I sold my 10-22mm for only $50 less than I paid when I bought it new from Amazon.  Pretty low barrier to moving to FF, IMO.  A bigger barrier that some people cite is the cost to replace those lenses with their FF counterparts.  But I disagree - for the 10-22mm, even though I got the expensive 16-35 II, the 17-40mm is only 1mm less wide.  Likewise, there are a whole bunch of people who claim that there is no EF 'replacement' for the 17-55mm since the 24-105mm is a stop slower and the 24-70 does not have IS.  To that, I say false!!  The 'FF equivalent' of the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS would be a hypothetical 27-88mm f/4.5 IS lens - therefore, the 24-105mm on FF is wider, longer, and faster than the 17-55mm on APS-C (note: faster in terms of DoF for the same framing, but the 1.3-stop ISO advantage of FF more than makes up for the 1-stop loss of shutter speed, so really the only thing you lose is activation of the f/2.8 AF points).

I haven't actually heard the argument that there is no FF equivalent of the 17-55, and would gladly take a FF/24-105 over an APS-C/17-55 combination!

as for the migration penalty -- yea I think those who have invested in the high dollar EF-S lenses will find the used market attractive enough to make the transition worth it with minimal cost penalty. These lenses will hold their value in the Rebel market for some time, I expect.    I do suspect that other of the EF-S lenses would not hold value as well, but at the same time represent less overall financial risk anyway --  but I'm speaking without experience there...

Indeed I would agree that the 17-55 still makes a very good general purpose lens for a 2nd (APS-C) body

distant.star

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #224 on: June 21, 2012, 12:06:01 PM »

.
Well thought out post. Thanks.

One point especially rings true for me -- the EF-S 60mm lens has been overlooked as one of the excellent EF-S lenses. It doesn't have the expense, but it delivers great IQ. I've found it also has a very distinctive look that I like. I use it for everything from general macro to landscapes.


I think everyone is forgetting that Canon APS-C, APS-H and full frame (35mm equivalent) sensors exist today for two reasons.

1) They correspond to existing film formats, making the switch from film to digital easier for those doing so. The logic behind Canon using these formats in digital sensors is clear.

2) The different sensors have different costs involved in production allowing Canon could offer budget minded entry level cameras ranging to the high performance professional cameras. APS-C sensors cost much less to produce than an equivalent MP full frame sensor!

Am I unhappy that the different formats exist? NO! They all offer something the other cannot. I use my 7D just as much as my 5DII! It all depends on what I want to shoot. I still throw my T1i (with my EF-s 60mm 2.8 macro) in my backpack when I want a throw-and-go camera that will consistently take awesome shots even though I have a sweet full frame 5DII to use whenever I need it! Now, I COULD throw my EF 100mm 2.8 macro on my 5DII, but the DOF (and sharpness, and ease of use) on the T1i/60mm is unmatched.

Now, will cameras exist one day that are all full frame? Maybe. Will Canon develop medium format digital sensors? That's very likely. There will be no end to the megapixel race as well as to the size of the sensor. (http://news.yahoo.com/supercameras-could-capture-never-seen-detail-171825569.html) For now, we have what we have.

D
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #224 on: June 21, 2012, 12:06:01 PM »