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Author Topic: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6  (Read 81217 times)

Richard8971

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #225 on: June 21, 2012, 10:43:29 PM »
Not to trivialize anyones choices or investments I was just highlighting the biggest case representing the most likely IQ fanatics that have a sizable EF-S investment that would be most impacted by a move to FF and that Canon would be the most concerned about in their branding and upgrade paths.  What are the EF-S lenses you have?   

Well, seeing as how I shoot with BOTH APS-C and FF cameras I see no reason to NOT invest in EF-S lenses, if the need is there.

I love my 5D2 for what it can do and I love my 7D and NOBODY is taking my 7D away! My wife loves her T1i even though she has the 5D2 and 7D to play with. You see, each camera will appeal or not appeal to everyone differently. Just because one person swears by FF cameras, someone out there will disagree and they won't be wrong for doing so!

It's not really an issue to me and as to what lenses I own, that is a different subject that is not part of the 7D2/70D discussion we are having. I simply meant that Canon needs to take into account someone who has bought a APS-C camera and if they make an upgrade to it, it should be compatible with what equipment they already own. (EF, EF-s) Canon has maintained that tradition so far and I believe they will continue to do so with future camera bodies.

If there is a 70D, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a 7D2, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a T5i, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a 5D4, it WILL be FF

Any new cameras that do not conform to the existing formats will simply be named something new. (I.E. 3D, 6D... whatever) Pretty simple really.

D
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 10:53:27 PM by Richard8971 »
Canon 6D, 5D2, 7Dv2.03, 50D, 40D, T1i, XTi...XT (& lenses, flahses), various powershots... You get the idea... I have a problem. :)

Wife shoots Nikon, D7000, D7100, (lenses and flashes)... we constantly tease each other that our cameras are better than each others!

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #225 on: June 21, 2012, 10:43:29 PM »

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #226 on: June 21, 2012, 11:12:05 PM »
I tend to agree Richard8971, esp as I consider those names to be brands, with a particular market perception that Canon wants attached to them.  It will be interesting if Canon Shakes things up, though, with name variants like 70DX, but whatever they do you can count on the fact that a lot of expensive salaries will have contributed to whatever branding strategy they come up with!

wickidwombat

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #227 on: June 22, 2012, 12:05:56 AM »
I hope that what ever the king crop camera is called it gets a different sensor from the rebel to further differentiate it.

a 22MP sensor makes sense to
A) compete a bit more with the sony 24MP demigod blah blah sensor
B) maybe at 22MP it will help the video people more like the 5Dmk3 was supposed to (I really dont understand this at all but I can see them do that from a marketing perspective)
C) gapless microlens stuff and better iso performance both low and high (IMO this is the achilles heal of the 7D)

I think they should just use the same body as the 5Dmk3 ergonomically its a stellar design dual card slots and all. 100% Viewfinder, No more R&D there boys just whack it in

AF system should really be the 1D4 AF (Again 0 R&D) to retain the f8 AF this makes massive sense since alot of the 7D crowd are people that use great L lenses and would like to be able to use a 1.4 or 2x TC on it for more reach at a sane price examples are 70-300 L + 1.4TC 400 f5.6L + 1.4 TC or the 300f4L +2x TC these combos on a crop with a good sensor will be wonderfull for everyone. I am sure most pros would carry one as an additional body purely for this reason. The 1D4 AF is also a proven system.

It would be nice if it was priced at $2000 or less however given canons current price strategy i would expect to see it at $2500

It all hinges on sorting out the IQ on the sensor!
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bdunbar79

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #228 on: June 22, 2012, 12:16:39 AM »
just sayin :P

I tend to use the same controls on all the bodies so this little differences get ignored

My brain cant cope with the 'which camera am I using today' analysis  ;D ;D ;D
yeah try the image review and zooming on any other camera and then swapping to the 5Dmk3 and back

drives one absolutely nuts i tell ya :P

... and changing iso in flight.

1D4 is set for auto iso, my others aren't

IIRC the 5DIII is different again  ???

No way I could change between 1D4 and 5D3 quickly.  Of course I don't need to, b/c when I can't miss a shot at sports I take the 1D4 :)
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pknight

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #229 on: June 22, 2012, 09:51:12 AM »
aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?

I was wondering, just how much can you invest in EF-S long glass?  (Or, perhaps, how do you define long glass? ;))  The 55-250 is the longest EF-S lens offered, following the 18-135.  Everything else tops out at 85, I believe.  EF-S lenses are designed to give croppers the FOV of wider EF lenses.  There is no demand for long EF-S lenses, since people use long lenses to "reach."  I mean, who would buy an EF-S lens with the FF FOV of the 100-400 when they can use the 100-400 perfectly well and get 1.6x the "reach"?

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #230 on: June 22, 2012, 11:30:38 AM »
aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?

I was wondering, just how much can you invest in EF-S long glass?  (Or, perhaps, how do you define long glass? ;))  The 55-250 is the longest EF-S lens offered, following the 18-135.  Everything else tops out at 85, I believe.  EF-S lenses are designed to give croppers the FOV of wider EF lenses.  There is no demand for long EF-S lenses, since people use long lenses to "reach."  I mean, who would buy an EF-S lens with the FF FOV of the 100-400 when they can use the 100-400 perfectly well and get 1.6x the "reach"?

 I know what you mean, so not to pick nits here but to be more precise I would state the objectives of EF-S this way: 

1.  one of the primary intentions of the UWA EF-S lenses is to give the cropper the FOV of longer EF lenses when used on FF bodies.  (10mm on a APS-C gives the equivalent FOV to the longer,  16mm on a FF).

2.  All EF-S lenses benefit from a reduced cost of R&D and mfg, arising from the fact that the image circle does not have to accomodate the larger FF sensors.  therefore, the lens can be produced cheaper with equivalent or similar IQ compared to a FF lens.  As a matter of practice, certain EF-S lenses bear this out, i.e. 10-22, 17-55, 15-85 (I think thats the "third" one...)

3.  one of the secondary (imho) intensions of the longer EF-S lenses is to give the cropper a way to acheive moderately long focal lengths with a very  minimal investment.    The 55-250 is a great example of this. 


So yes, generally the IQ aware croppers don't buy EF-S "long" glass -- most of us turn to L glass.  But the casual entry level APS-C tog who just wants the full range of focal lengths can obtain coverage from 18 to 250mm with a very minimal investment. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 11:33:41 AM by dlleno »

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #231 on: June 22, 2012, 12:02:25 PM »
3.  one of the secondary (imho) intensions of the longer EF-S lenses is to give the cropper a way to acheive moderately long focal lengths with a very  minimal investment.    The 55-250 is a great example of this. 

The 55-250 was one of the few EF-S I used reguarly - it was good on the 40D for street photography. The ff equivalent of 100-400 is far too instrusive as is the 70-300 for candids/street.

The IQ from this lens was incredible for its cost, and it came with IS

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #231 on: June 22, 2012, 12:02:25 PM »

samirachiko

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #232 on: June 23, 2012, 09:04:26 AM »




If there is a 70D, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a 7D2, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a T5i, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a 5D4, it WILL be FF


If there is a 70D, it WILL APS-C

If there is a 7D2, it WILL be the TOP of APS-C

If there is a cheap full frame, it WILL be a 6D

;)

pknight

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #233 on: June 23, 2012, 11:22:59 AM »
aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?

I was wondering, just how much can you invest in EF-S long glass?  (Or, perhaps, how do you define long glass? ;))  The 55-250 is the longest EF-S lens offered, following the 18-135.  Everything else tops out at 85, I believe.  EF-S lenses are designed to give croppers the FOV of wider EF lenses.  There is no demand for long EF-S lenses, since people use long lenses to "reach."  I mean, who would buy an EF-S lens with the FF FOV of the 100-400 when they can use the 100-400 perfectly well and get 1.6x the "reach"?

 I know what you mean, so not to pick nits here but to be more precise I would state the objectives of EF-S this way: 

1.  one of the primary intentions of the UWA EF-S lenses is to give the cropper the FOV of longer EF lenses when used on FF bodies.  (10mm on a APS-C gives the equivalent FOV to the longer,  16mm on a FF).

This is what I meant when I said EF-S lenses were intended to give crop users the FOV of wider EF lenses, the wider EF lenses being those around 16mm.  So we agree.

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #234 on: June 23, 2012, 12:17:42 PM »
aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?

I was wondering, just how much can you invest in EF-S long glass?  (Or, perhaps, how do you define long glass? ;))  The 55-250 is the longest EF-S lens offered, following the 18-135.  Everything else tops out at 85, I believe.  EF-S lenses are designed to give croppers the FOV of wider EF lenses.  There is no demand for long EF-S lenses, since people use long lenses to "reach."  I mean, who would buy an EF-S lens with the FF FOV of the 100-400 when they can use the 100-400 perfectly well and get 1.6x the "reach"?

 I know what you mean, so not to pick nits here but to be more precise I would state the objectives of EF-S this way: 

1.  one of the primary intentions of the UWA EF-S lenses is to give the cropper the FOV of longer EF lenses when used on FF bodies.  (10mm on a APS-C gives the equivalent FOV to the longer,  16mm on a FF).

This is what I meant when I said EF-S lenses were intended to give crop users the FOV of wider EF lenses, the wider EF lenses being those around 16mm.  So we agree.

Apart from the 14mm and 8-15  8)

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #235 on: June 23, 2012, 01:36:27 PM »
aside from the three mentioned, what is your total investment in EF-S long glass? what long glass do you reach for when needed?

Who said my EF-s lenses were long reach? They make other EF-s lenses. If I choose to spend any amount of $$$ on ANY lens, regardless of EF or EF-s, you better believe I thought it out first and will use it until it dies!

D

sure, not very many of us invest in glass without thinking it through.  For example, I have invested in the 10-22 and the 17-55 and this is not a trivial investment, but necessasy to optimize IQ across all conditions with one camera body. So let me re-frame the background of my question -- I was just calling out that there are three major EF-S lenses which form the biggest case for an investment in EF-S glass that would give one pause in a migration to FF, and that an investment in LONG EF-S glass is not sizable.   I did think, initially, that your response implied an investment in long EF-S but I see your comment is a more general statement that one  one should account for examples other than what I mentioned.     

Not to trivialize anyones choices or investments I was just highlighting the biggest case representing the most likely IQ fanatics that have a sizable EF-S investment that would be most impacted by a move to FF and that Canon would be the most concerned about in their branding and upgrade paths.  What are the EF-S lenses you have?   

Similar here, I debated long and hard with the option of 10-22 or 16-35, and ended up going with the 10-22 because I knew i was still about a year off from migrating to FF, and while it may be a pain, selling the 10-22 for close to the cost paid won't be too hard - and 16mm on a crop just wasn't wide enough for my needs.  Other than that though, I went with the 24-70 L v1, and the 70-200 2.8  v1 no IS....  And sorry to be almost snobbish, but I really don't see the need for IS on any lens below 100mm - I know for some there are valid arguments out there for it, but with L glass, to me at least adding IS on the sub 100mm lenses only means the lens will be more expensive and heavier, and from my perspective, I'd just rather have a steady hand while shooting.  On the 24-70, i can take it down to about 1/30th and shoot without worry, 1/15th if i am shooting on the wide end, and on the 70-200, I can go down to 1/60th-1/100th (1/60th at 70mm to about 150mm, and 1/80th-1/100th for150mm-200mm).  I would really like IS on the 70-200, and yeah I could get that for about $900 more, or, now that I have used it a bit, the f4 70-200 with IS really isn't a bad option.  I find the bokeh on the 70-200 to be amazing even up to f8, of course though, the extra light you can at 2.8 is hard to beat too.  Either way, at least from my perspective, if you have the 10-22mm i don't see much reason to go with the 17-55 EF-S lens at all - with most EF-S glass the price makes it attractive, but the 17-55 isn't far off from the 24-70 (well, at least the V1, the V2 is much pricier), but the 24-105 is right in the same ball park.  If your at that stage and know that EF-S glass won't work on FF, I really have no sympathy for ya. 
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

bdunbar79

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #236 on: June 23, 2012, 01:40:03 PM »




If there is a 70D, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a 7D2, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a T5i, it WILL be APS-C

If there is a 5D4, it WILL be FF


If there is a 70D, it WILL APS-C

If there is a 7D2, it WILL be the TOP of APS-C

If there is a cheap full frame, it WILL be a 6D

;)

+1.  There will be no 5D Mk IV announced for at least 3 years.  That doesn't make sense.  But the post I quoted, I can see that for sure.  Remember, 50D, then 7D, then 60D :)
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dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #237 on: June 23, 2012, 11:05:41 PM »
...And sorry to be almost snobbish, but I really don't see the need for IS on any lens below 100mm ...

.. if you have the 10-22mm i don't see much reason to go with the 17-55 EF-S lens at all - with most EF-S glass the price makes it attractive, but the 17-55 isn't far off from the 24-70 (well, at least the V1, the V2 is much pricier), but the 24-105 is right in the same ball park.  If your at that stage and know that EF-S glass won't work on FF, I really have no sympathy for ya.

I seriously doubt very many at "that" stage care about your sympathy.  People purchase lenses because the capabilities they offer produce results in the situations that are important. 

Not many, with a single APS-C body, will purchase those two lenses in that order, and even if they do, it will be for a good reason.  I use my 17-55 a lot, and I use the IS a lot at f/2.8, and highly value both of those capabilities because they increase the keeper rate especially indoors and for handheld HDR.  and the lens has great re-sale value as well, with or without your sympathy. 

I also use IS very heavily between 70-99mm and value the difference between acceptable and tack sharp. 

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #237 on: June 23, 2012, 11:05:41 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #238 on: June 24, 2012, 02:28:56 AM »

I also use IS very heavily between 70-99mm and value the difference between acceptable and tack sharp.

IS is a good thing for longer lens. Even my binoculars have IS

However at the shorter end motion blur becomes the main enemy. So for example at 24mm on a ff the 1/30 shots will be sharp, yet any movement of the subject will be blurred.

From experience I would say that motion blur becomes an issue (except while panning) when shooting under 1/60. On a crop this would be about 40mm where IS isn't needed.

dlleno

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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #239 on: June 24, 2012, 01:11:50 PM »

I also use IS very heavily between 70-99mm and value the difference between acceptable and tack sharp.

IS is a good thing for longer lens. Even my binoculars have IS

However at the shorter end motion blur becomes the main enemy. So for example at 24mm on a ff the 1/30 shots will be sharp, yet any movement of the subject will be blurred.

From experience I would say that motion blur becomes an issue (except while panning) when shooting under 1/60. On a crop this would be about 40mm where IS isn't needed.

That's certainly reasonable. beyond that,  the value of IS at even shorter focal lengths is more evident on a 1.6x crop because lower ISO speeds are often used to avoid noise especially when there is no subject movement.   Here the rule of thumb from the film days is still good guidance, i.e.  to know when IS is contributing or should be used.

That said we should note that some have never had the need or desire to shoot handheld 28mm f/2.8 at 1/6th second.


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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
« Reply #239 on: June 24, 2012, 01:11:50 PM »