April 16, 2014, 07:10:51 PM

Author Topic: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens  (Read 7207 times)

hyles

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 01:32:10 AM »
EF-S lenses where created with the back lens element projecting more inside mirror box. This allows light to reach the sensor more vertically,  But it needed on aps-c camera a smaller mirror. Even if electronically an ef-s lens is able to work with a FF body,  it is impossible to mount it because the plastic ring on the back of the lens that would hit the mirror. Someone has removed this plastic on some ef-s lens to mount and use them on FF, but you would end up with loosing a lot of megapixel cropping images.
I think that if you want to use ef-s lens you better have a crop sensor camera. Even if nikon allows compatibility of their FX camera with aps-c lenses, i think it is quite a useless option.
Diego

canon rumors FORUM

Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 01:32:10 AM »

wickidwombat

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 4034
    • View Profile
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2012, 01:41:38 AM »
i think it is quite a useless option.

it's not entirely useless
if the reduced file size of the images can give a faster FPS burst and deeper sustained buffer
ie the camera detects the lens and only processes an APS-C sized image from the sensor resulting in smaller data for each image but can still use the full processing power this sort of function would be pretty handy for action shooters I would think
APS-H Fanboy

hyles

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2012, 01:54:46 AM »
i think it is quite a useless option.

it's not entirely useless
if the reduced file size of the images can give a faster FPS burst and deeper sustained buffer
ie the camera detects the lens and only processes an APS-C sized image from the sensor resulting in smaller data for each image but can still use the full processing power this sort of function would be pretty handy for action shooters I would think

Off course you will have a faster camera then the FF, but i can't see the point buying 3300 euros, 22mp camera to use it as a 12mp aps-c camera, when you can save money with a 18mp very fast 7D. Thinking of nikon, if i wanted to use my aps-c lenses i would rather buy d7000/d300s than any FF used in crop mode.
Diego

Neeneko

  • Guest
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2012, 01:57:25 AM »
I'm sure its possible.  As mentioned, Nikon cameras can do it and I'm sure Canon engineers are just as capable.  With Nikon, If you mount a DX lens (similar to EF-S) the camera camera recognises this and works in "crop" mode.  Its not ideal as you potentially lose a lot of megapixels.  But otherwise, everything works fine.

*nods* at which point, you might as well just take regular FF pictures and crop them in post.  I always thought the Nikon thing was a bit of a dirty trick, kinda like how Canon quietly changes settings at low f stops to make the user think they are getting extra light... it is giving the user what they visually expect, sorta, but only because you are not giving them what they mechanically expect.

briansquibb

  • Guest
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2012, 01:57:56 AM »
i think it is quite a useless option.

it's not entirely useless
if the reduced file size of the images can give a faster FPS burst and deeper sustained buffer
ie the camera detects the lens and only processes an APS-C sized image from the sensor resulting in smaller data for each image but can still use the full processing power this sort of function would be pretty handy for action shooters I would think

Off course you will have a faster camera then the FF, but i can't see the point buying 3300 euros, 22mp camera to use it as a 12mp aps-c camera, when you can save money with a 18mp very fast 7D. Thinking of nikon, if i wanted to use my aps-c lenses i would rather buy d7000/d300s than any FF used in crop mode.
Diego

That is what the D800 does

wickidwombat

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 4034
    • View Profile
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2012, 01:59:21 AM »
i think it is quite a useless option.

it's not entirely useless
if the reduced file size of the images can give a faster FPS burst and deeper sustained buffer
ie the camera detects the lens and only processes an APS-C sized image from the sensor resulting in smaller data for each image but can still use the full processing power this sort of function would be pretty handy for action shooters I would think

Off course you will have a faster camera then the FF, but i can't see the point buying 3300 euros, 22mp camera to use it as a 12mp aps-c camera, when you can save money with a 18mp very fast 7D. Thinking of nikon, if i wanted to use my aps-c lenses i would rather buy d7000/d300s than any FF used in crop mode.
Diego
Nikon cant use EF-S lenses :P sorry just teasing I know you meant the Nikkor DX lenses ;)
APS-H Fanboy

briansquibb

  • Guest
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 02:00:12 AM »
a bit of a dirty trick, kinda like how Canon quietly changes settings at low f stops to make the user think they are getting extra light... it is giving the user what they visually expect, sorta, but only because you are not giving them what they mechanically expect.

Would you explain this a bit more? It is new to me

canon rumors FORUM

Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 02:00:12 AM »

Radiating

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
    • View Profile
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2012, 02:11:44 AM »
When I switched to full frame I ran the calculations and found that for EVERY SINGLE EF-S lens from focal lengths 10mm to 250mm (16mm-400mm equivalent) it's full frame equivalent lens would be always substantially much better, almost always cheaper, could acheive better subject isolation with shallower DOF and be much much sharper. In fact full frame lenses typically have twice the resolution of their crop counterparts.

Example:

10-22mm vs 17-40mm =  lens is cheaper, has 202% the resolution,  has 1-2 stops shallower DOF and has a longer reach on the long end, and is weather sealed.

17-55mm IS vs 24-105mm IS = lens is cheaper, has 205% the resolution, has 0.5 stops shallower DOF, and is both longer and wider, and is weather sealed.

55-250mm IS vs 70-300mm IS = lens is only $150 more, has 186% the resolution, has 1-1.5 stops shallower DOF, is wider, but also only has 300mm vs 400mm of reach, HOWEVER it is so much sharper that cropping it actually results in a 6% sharper image which has shallower DOF.

18-200mm IS vs Tamron 28-300mm XR (full frame superzoom)  = lens is $100 less, has virtually identical resolution, has a 1 stops shallower DOF, is slightly wider but is slightly shorter (29 vs 28mm 320 vs 300mm).

Remember crop lenses need to have their focal length multiplied by 1.6 and 1.5 stops subtracted from their aperture to compare them to full frame lenses. So a 17-55mm f/2.8 lens is the equivalent of a full frame 28-90mm f/4.5.
 
The point is that there is zero image quality benefit and it would cost more to use EF-S lenses on full frame than their EF counterparts. It's pointless and engineering a body with this function would also be pointless.

Nikon's dogma as a company is compatabilty that's why you can use 50 year old lenses on their bodies which still work. Even if that compatability is pointless.

Keep in mind my argument is before you consider that you'd be working with very few megapixels if you were to make EF-S lenses compatible with full frame bodies. That really sinks the whole idea.

The only major argument for being able to use EF-S lenses on full frame is lens sharing. However if you actually study the possibility of lens sharing it's much better to share EF lenses between a crop and full frame than EF-S lenses between a crop and full frame.

EF lenses on crop tend to be about 10% worse in resolution than their EF-S counterparts.

So if you were to share EF-S lenses you'd lose 50% of your resolution just at the lens nevermind the megapixels on one body. If you share EF lenses you only lose 10%. I'm pretty sure most people would much rather have 10% less resolution than 50% so it's much much much better to only have EF lenses and share those with your crop than to have EF-S lenses and share those with your full frame instead of getting the EF counterparts. Enabling people to share EF-S lenses between their full frame and crop cameras would be pointless, as it's just giving them the option to have much worse and more expensive gear.

Hope that clears things up. If anything making EF-S lenses incompatible with full frame motivates people to not use EF-S lenses on full frame which is better and cheaper for them in every way.

Hope that helps.

Neeneko

  • Guest
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2012, 02:15:07 AM »
a bit of a dirty trick, kinda like how Canon quietly changes settings at low f stops to make the user think they are getting extra light... it is giving the user what they visually expect, sorta, but only because you are not giving them what they mechanically expect.

Would you explain this a bit more? It is new to me

I don't have the link handy, but it was discovered a while back that digital sensors, because of their geometry, do not get the full benefits of low fstops.  A much narrower family of angles actually register, so a good chunk of the extra light a really fast lens lets in does not actually register with the sensor.  Canon quietly increases the ISO when it detects low apertures to give the appearance the extra light is doing more then it is.   If you use manual aperture lenses (with no reporting) the behavior does not trigger and you can see the effect in play.

Bruce Photography

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 184
  • Landscapes, 5D/5D2/5D3,7D,60D,EOS-M,D800/E,D7100
    • View Profile
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2012, 02:20:35 AM »
i think it is quite a useless option.

it's not entirely useless
if the reduced file size of the images can give a faster FPS burst and deeper sustained buffer
ie the camera detects the lens and only processes an APS-C sized image from the sensor resulting in smaller data for each image but can still use the full processing power this sort of function would be pretty handy for action shooters I would think

Off course you will have a faster camera then the FF, but i can't see the point buying 3300 euros, 22mp camera to use it as a 12mp aps-c camera, when you can save money with a 18mp very fast 7D. Thinking of nikon, if i wanted to use my aps-c lenses i would rather buy d7000/d300s than any FF used in crop mode.
Diego
Nikon cant use EF-S lenses :P sorry just teasing I know you meant the Nikkor DX lenses ;)

Actually I really love the format changes the D800 does so effortlessly.  It isn't that I want to ever buy DX lenes (I don't except to try the 18-300), but when using the 2x extender on the 70-200 at 200 I get 400mm.  But instead of cropping in post, I can switch to DX format and I'm now using a crop window in the view finder for DX as if I was using a 600mm lens.  Now for Canon you are right.  As long as 22MP is full frame you can't afford to crop anything.  But with 36MP you can choose to crop now or crop later and save all card/disk real estate.  When I'm doing birding, this is really quite nice because 15MP is ok if I can use all of it.  Actually they have quite a few format crops that I can choose at the touch of a button.  Perhaps this will turn out to be the true utility of a large MP sensor in addition to full MP landscapes full of detail for my large prints.

briansquibb

  • Guest
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2012, 02:23:25 AM »
a bit of a dirty trick, kinda like how Canon quietly changes settings at low f stops to make the user think they are getting extra light... it is giving the user what they visually expect, sorta, but only because you are not giving them what they mechanically expect.

Would you explain this a bit more? It is new to me

I don't have the link handy, but it was discovered a while back that digital sensors, because of their geometry, do not get the full benefits of low fstops.  A much narrower family of angles actually register, so a good chunk of the extra light a really fast lens lets in does not actually register with the sensor.  Canon quietly increases the ISO when it detects low apertures to give the appearance the extra light is doing more then it is.   If you use manual aperture lenses (with no reporting) the behavior does not trigger and you can see the effect in play.

So this only applies to the very fast lens? Why doesn't the change in ISO register?

I wonder where this starts happening? f/2, f/4?

noisejammer

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 147
    • View Profile
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2012, 02:52:58 AM »

So this only applies to the very fast lens? Why doesn't the change in ISO register?

I wonder where this starts happening? f/2, f/4?
It depends on the camera. The 7D is worst but it affects all digital cameras (not just Canon.)
For the 5D2, the effect starts at about f/2.4. It's significant at f/1.4 and between f/1.2 and f/1.4 you get almost no benefit from the extra light. I posted my results on POTN a couple of weeks back. Here's a link http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1165164&page=3 and a second plot of my results... http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1165164&page=5. A few others also verified the effect with experiments.

The result of the post was that owners of the 50L and 85L started making really unpleasant comments. This was regretable but the fact is that Canon (and Nikon, Pentax, Sony) all increase the ISO to make it look like your fast glass is actually doing something for you.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 02:59:41 AM by noisejammer »

briansquibb

  • Guest
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2012, 02:57:04 AM »

So this only applies to the very fast lens? Why doesn't the change in ISO register?

I wonder where this starts happening? f/2, f/4?
It depends on the camera. The 7D is worst but it affects all digital cameras (not just Canon.)
For the 5D2, the effect starts at about f/1.8. It's significant at f/1.4 and between f/1.2 and f/1.4 you get almost no benefit from the extra light. I posted my results on POTN a couple of weeks back. Here's a link http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1165164&page=3 and a second plot of my results... http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1165164&page=5. A few others also verified the effect with experiments.


Many thanks - very useful info knowing that v fast lens buys shallow DOF and (perhaps) better bg blur and bokeh


canon rumors FORUM

Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2012, 02:57:04 AM »

wickidwombat

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 4034
    • View Profile
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2012, 03:06:06 AM »
so are you saying that say you are shooting a concert in very low light with a 50 f1.4
@ f1.4 3200 iso
you would be better off shooting at say f2.2 @iso 8000
or f2.8 @iso 12800

because from an iso noise POV this is what is happening anyway?
APS-H Fanboy

noisejammer

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 147
    • View Profile
Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2012, 03:10:00 AM »
Many thanks - very useful info knowing that v fast lens buys shallow DOF and (perhaps) better bg blur and bokeh
Actually no - the point is that light from the perifery of the lens does not make it to the active part of the sensor and so it cannot contribute to the image or shallow DoF. Mounted on a 5D2, a 50L can barely perform like a 50/1.6 (albeit a very good one.)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: NEW FF Body that is able to take EF-S Lens
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2012, 03:10:00 AM »