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Author Topic: Canon's Mirrorless Entry  (Read 15533 times)

c.d.embrey

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2012, 01:25:55 PM »
One advantage Canon has over most others is their amazing EF and EF-S lens selection. 

This amazing lens selection is the reason I've switched my FFFilm cameras for Canon to Nikon. And when I replace my DSLRs at the end of the year, I doubt it will be with new Canon DSLRs.

I'm waiting to see the Canon Mirrorless, before I decide what mirrorless system to buy into. The Olympus E-M5 has great IQ and a selection of lenses that get better day. Schneider has announce that they will make their ultra high quality lenses in M43 mount. The main problem with the E-M5 is the Fugly Retro Design -- hope Canon can do better.

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2012, 01:25:55 PM »

fifowarehouse

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2012, 04:19:52 PM »

For mirroless, I was hoping for bigger sensor like APS-C or FF.  Be able to shoot under low light like 5D III is AWESOME.
 

Rocky

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2012, 04:55:39 PM »

For mirroless, I was hoping for bigger sensor like APS-C or FF.  Be able to shoot under low light like 5D III is AWESOME.
One of the advantage of "mirrorless" is that it allow at least one if two step of slower shutter speed due to the lack of mirror movement. If canon put a small sensor in their "mirrorless" and force user to go into lower ISO in low light. That will take this advantage away.  What is Canon's marketing/Engineering thinking???

moreorless

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2012, 05:31:06 PM »
This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.

My guess is the Canon mirrorless will be around the xxxxD price point at the very least and I do think the brand is a massive factor in that.

Really I think most of the key innovations for mirrorless right now are out there already, whats really needed is a system that can combine the size of m43, the image quality of the NEX and the AF of the Nikon. We know Canon can provide a sensor not far off the NEX and rumours do tend to suggest there looking at on sensor phase AF plus lens space saving with a very short backfrocus distance.

gmrza

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2012, 06:38:58 PM »
This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.

My guess is the Canon mirrorless will be around the xxxxD price point at the very least and I do think the brand is a massive factor in that.

Really I think most of the key innovations for mirrorless right now are out there already, whats really needed is a system that can combine the size of m43, the image quality of the NEX and the AF of the Nikon. We know Canon can provide a sensor not far off the NEX and rumours do tend to suggest there looking at on sensor phase AF plus lens space saving with a very short backfrocus distance.

I have a suspicion that larger sensors have proved a challenge because of the fact that when you make the flange to focal plane distance smaller, the light arriving at the sensor is coming from an increasingly oblique angle.  Leica has solved this challenge with offset/angled micro-lenses, a technique which it has patented.  That means that other manufacturers need to come up with another idea, or license the Leica patent - which I'm sure will cost lots of $$$.  The general approach to deal with this problem to date has been to make the sensor smaller.

I hope Canon manages to solve this challenge.
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Rocky

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2012, 03:08:21 AM »
This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.

My guess is the Canon mirrorless will be around the xxxxD price point at the very least and I do think the brand is a massive factor in that.

Really I think most of the key innovations for mirrorless right now are out there already, whats really needed is a system that can combine the size of m43, the image quality of the NEX and the AF of the Nikon. We know Canon can provide a sensor not far off the NEX and rumours do tend to suggest there looking at on sensor phase AF plus lens space saving with a very short backfrocus distance.

I have a suspicion that larger sensors have proved a challenge because of the fact that when you make the flange to focal plane distance smaller, the light arriving at the sensor is coming from an increasingly oblique angle.  Leica has solved this challenge with offset/angled micro-lenses, a technique which it has patented.  That means that other manufacturers need to come up with another idea, or license the Leica patent - which I'm sure will cost lots of $$$.  The general approach to deal with this problem to date has been to make the sensor smaller.

I hope Canon manages to solve this challenge.
Let us look at the three APS-C mirrorless, Sam sung NX and Sony  Nex 7 and NEX5N.  all have lens flange at about 25 to 26 mm. APS-C has diagonal of 22.2mm. That is a ratio of 0.89. let us look at Canon 5D with lens flange of 44mm. FF diagonal is 43.3 mm. that is ratio of 0.98. In other word APS-C mirrorless already has a easier time than the 5D for the light ray to be more perpendicular than the 5D. Therefore there is no reason why Canon cannot do a mirrorless with the lens flange about 25mm.  Canon does not need to do anything special to the sensor. If the T4i already has phase detector built in on the sensor. that seems to b a longical choice to be used in canon mirrorless.  M9 has a lens flabge of 27.8mm. the sensor diagonal to flange has a ration of  1.55!! That is why M9 needed the offset microlenses

SiliconVoid

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2012, 04:31:54 AM »
I will offer a prediction from the perspective of what Canon 'should' do:
Even if you take into consideration how popular/saturated this product category is, and the success other manufacturers have had, if Canon comes up with some new f'd up lens mount this endeavor will fail.

Oh sure, there will be those fans who will buy one because they love Canon, and they can show off their ~Canon~ mirrorless body to all their friends who already have one of another brand - but for others who already own a few $K worth of 'normal' lenses (like myself) there is no benefit or incentive to buy into another proprietary mounting system. One we all know ahead of time will never see the selection of lenses Canon already has in the EF/EF-S mount.

The best thing Canon could do in this arena (something no other manufacturer has done) is to make the body fully compatible with their existing lenses - period.
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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2012, 04:31:54 AM »

Rocky

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2012, 04:40:43 AM »
I will offer a prediction from the perspective of what Canon 'should' do:
Even if you take into consideration how popular/saturated this product category is, and the success other manufacturers have had, if Canon comes up with some new f'd up lens mount this endeavor will fail.

Oh sure, there will be those fans who will buy one because they love Canon, and they can show off their ~Canon~ mirrorless body to all their friends who already have one of another brand - but for others who already own a few $K worth of 'normal' lenses (like myself) there is no benefit or incentive to buy into another proprietary mounting system. One we all know ahead of time will never see the selection of lenses Canon already has in the EF/EF-S mount.

The best thing Canon could do in this arena (something no other manufacturer has done) is to make the body fully compatible with their existing lenses - period.
That is exactly what Pentax has done with the K-01. It is a DSLR without the mirror.

traveller

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2012, 05:40:23 AM »
I will offer a prediction from the perspective of what Canon 'should' do:
Even if you take into consideration how popular/saturated this product category is, and the success other manufacturers have had, if Canon comes up with some new f'd up lens mount this endeavor will fail.

Oh sure, there will be those fans who will buy one because they love Canon, and they can show off their ~Canon~ mirrorless body to all their friends who already have one of another brand - but for others who already own a few $K worth of 'normal' lenses (like myself) there is no benefit or incentive to buy into another proprietary mounting system. One we all know ahead of time will never see the selection of lenses Canon already has in the EF/EF-S mount.

The best thing Canon could do in this arena (something no other manufacturer has done) is to make the body fully compatible with their existing lenses - period.
That is exactly what Pentax has done with the K-01. It is a DSLR without the mirror.

And most reviewers agree that the K-01 is a pointless camera that is not much smaller than a DSLR but has all the disadvantages of mirrorless cameras.  There has been plenty written in this thread and others about flange back distances and the effect they have on body size and lens requirements, so I will not repeat it here.  The point is that it makes no sense for Canon to use the EF mount for their mirrorless camera. 

This is why Canon has no advantage over any of the other manufacturers going into this new market (unlike the momentum the EF mount gave them during the digital revolution).  The new mirrorless camera must therefore be strong in its own right and there must be a good selection of lenses at launch, along with a clear roadmap that they can stick to. 

So far, none of the other systems have got this quite right.  Micro 4/3rds has the advantage of the best lens selection, but Panasonic lost momentum with sensor development and both they and Olympus lost imagination with their bodies.  Samsung have a good plan, but a poor sensor and their system lacks stand out features.  Sony have launched some great bodies, but the lenses have been lacking.  The Nikon 1 system built up sales quickly, but is risking losing momentum if there are not more lenses and more enthusiast specified cameras soon. 

These weaknesses are rapidly being addressed by most of the mirrorless manufacturers and Canon need to act soon and decisively if they are to secure enough market share to make their system viable.  To succeed in what is now a very crowded market, Canon either need to do something special, or to get everything right (in no particular order: EVF, AF, handling/ergonomics/responsiveness, size, lenses, price).  I don't think that relying upon their brand name will be enough, considering how late their entry into the market will now be. 

I am increasingly concerned that the mirrorless market is becoming saturated and confused with all these new systems and I think that a number of them will not survive long term.  Right now, I wouldn't bet my money on Nikon 1, Samsung NX, or anything that Pentax is currently offering; micro 4/3rds, Sony NEX look like the winning systems.  Canon has an uphill battle to win market share, their system better be outstanding. 

moreorless

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2012, 06:03:21 AM »
You look at just how strong sales of the Nikon 1 system was dispite all its limations and I think its pretty clear Canon are going to sell alot of whatever they release provided its in anyway competitive. The main negative of the Nikon system seems to be that they look to have deliberately hamstrung its potential to protect DSLR sales with the smaller sensor that doesnt save any space.

Getting everything in one body doesnt seem all that difficult to me personally, we know the ASPCish sensor is there are performs well(vs the Sony its spilting hairs for the target market IMHO) and we also know that on sensor phase AF exists albeit largely untested. The main unknown is I'd say lens support, how good and how small can they get, there was that patent for an 18-55mm kit lens with a 10mm backfocus distance that seems to suggest canon maybe looking to try something new here.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 06:05:25 AM by moreorless »

AvTvM

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2012, 07:28:06 AM »
The best thing Canon could do in this arena (something no other manufacturer has done) is to make the body fully compatible with their existing lenses - period.
That is exactly what Pentax has done with the K-01. It is a DSLR without the mirror.
[/quote]

exactly.

Question is, what is preferable: a mirrorless that is
a) bulky like a DSLR in order to continue using existing - big! - lenses
b) compact body plus new, compact lenses plus full compatibility with existing existing lenses via adapter

Clear and overwhelming preference in the market is type b)

I would love to see one or all of the following mirrorless systems from Canon:

1.) 5D 3 in a smaller body aka "the Leica M9 killer
The very best imaginable FF-sensored mirrorless. Size between Minolta CLE and Leica M9, excellent FF sensor with fast Hybrid-AF (with FPPD-AF as in EOS 650D), incredibly good state of the art EVF, fast, responsive, fully weather-sealed, fully pro grade body, radio wireless controller built in instead of popo-up flash. Think of a
5D 3 in a much smaller form factor without mirror box and prism. Price of course similar to 5D 3.
Lens mount is really easy: Canon EM ... an electrified Leica M-mount, backwards compatible with all the great and ultra-compact manual focus M-mount lenses. Plus a small selection of new, digitally optimized Canon M lenses: 2 ultra compact highest optical grade zooms .. 24-60mmf/4, 50-135mm/4 plus 24/2.0, 35/1.8, 40/2.8 pancake, 50/1.4, 85/1.8 as ultra-compact fixed focals, all ultra-extra nano-coated and all sorts of ED, UHDand aspherical glass in them for stunning optical quality. Plus a "EF-to-M" adapter with full Canon lens protocol and AF, IS functionality  ... basically a small EF+EM-extension tube - but call it "mirrorless pancake adapter", price it at 199,-  and it will sell like hotcakes. :-)

2. 7D performance in a very small package - aka "the NEX-9 killer"
Similarly well featured, but ASP-C sensor. Body size like Sony NEX. Same mount and lenses as the Leica killer. Same pancake adapter. On this one you can not only use EF- but of course also EF-S lenses with full functionality.

3. - aka "the killer mFT "
yes that's right. Forget about another proprietary Canon mount. Just build a compact mFT body with clearly the best sensor, image quality and AF, speed, performance and EVF on the market plus a few killer Canon mFT-lenses, that quality-minded Oly and Pana users will also happily purchase. 


Unfortunately I expect Canon to take the follwing alternative:

4. lame sub-mFT mirrorless ... aka "the Canon crappy-consumer mirrorless"
Sub-mFT sensor-size (G1X) consumer-level body with features and capabilities at best at EOS xxxxD level at twice the price. Along with some crappy cheap and dark consumer kit lenses.

moreorless

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2012, 07:53:28 AM »
The problem with releasing a more high end system is I'd say that such users are also much less willing to compromise, look at the moaning Fuji have had to deal with for the focusing on the X1/X100 for example.

Such a system needs to hit the ground running and to achieve that releasing lower end bodies first seems like the best way forward to me,

traveller

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2012, 10:24:14 AM »
The problem with releasing a more high end system is I'd say that such users are also much less willing to compromise, look at the moaning Fuji have had to deal with for the focusing on the X1/X100 for example.

Such a system needs to hit the ground running and to achieve that releasing lower end bodies first seems like the best way forward to me,

I think that people are complaining because the af is below-par for mirrorless cameras and these models are at the top end of their price ranges.  Don't forget that for all the fancy viewfinder technology on these Fuji cameras, there is no rangefinder.  Manual focusing can only be achieved by using the EVF/LCD and neither camera has focus peaking.   You are therefore stuck with using the accurate but slow 10x magnification feature, or using zone focusing (i.e. educated guesswork). 

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2012, 10:24:14 AM »

Neeneko

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2012, 10:42:02 AM »
I think that people are complaining because the af is below-par for mirrorless cameras and these models are at the top end of their price ranges.  Don't forget that for all the fancy viewfinder technology on these Fuji cameras, there is no rangefinder.  Manual focusing can only be achieved by using the EVF/LCD and neither camera has focus peaking.   You are therefore stuck with using the accurate but slow 10x magnification feature, or using zone focusing (i.e. educated guesswork).

You know... Canon could potentially make a splash if they marketed a mirrorless entry to segments that don't care about AF in the first place.  If mirrorless has this weakness, pump up the strengths these people do care about and watch them fly off the shelves.

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2012, 01:01:43 PM »
The problem with releasing a more high end system is I'd say that such users are also much less willing to compromise, look at the moaning Fuji have had to deal with for the focusing on the X1/X100 for example.

Such a system needs to hit the ground running and to achieve that releasing lower end bodies first seems like the best way forward to me,

I think that people are complaining because the af is below-par for mirrorless cameras and these models are at the top end of their price ranges.  Don't forget that for all the fancy viewfinder technology on these Fuji cameras, there is no rangefinder.  Manual focusing can only be achieved by using the EVF/LCD and neither camera has focus peaking.   You are therefore stuck with using the accurate but slow 10x magnification feature, or using zone focusing (i.e. educated guesswork).

The NEX-7 has focus peaking. I doubt I'll buy a camera again which doesn't have this feature...it more than makes up for the short comings of an EVF and makes my NEX the camera I reach for for video over my 7D almost every time now.

Who cares how many AF points there are and how fast it is when I can see which parts of the entire frame are in or out of focus, AND instant real time DOF preview...that's an amazing plus for me...and it's on all the time. I don't have to change modes, switch AF points, and worry about those things while shooting...very intuitive. Manually focusing is slower, but if you're careful about your shots you don't miss any more than with AF.

That said, I've used it plenty with autofocus too (including for sports) and while it's not lightning fast, it's better than most people give it credit for and has yet to leave me wanting for something faster. Most of the people who are poo-pooing the AF likely haven't used it...certainly not in a real world situation.

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Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2012, 01:01:43 PM »