Canon's Mirrorless Entry

[wickidwombat]

why not take your black and gold pom poms and head on over to nikon rumours instead of trolling about here with canon users and our inferior camera who are clearly incapable of producing the wonders that can come from the D800

Thank you for strengthening my distaste in narrow minded fanboys. You do see everything in black and white, don't you?

Everyone who doesn't love Canon's latest camera must be a Nikon troll, right? 

while hardly a fan boy i sent my first 5Dmk3 back because it was not functioning correctly my new one is great for my needs

the main arguements you use to deem the 5Dmk3 sensor as rubbish are the same tired ones used by people that pour over dxo reports and actually dont shoot with the camera

the whole D800 has a higher DXO DR score is getting really tired

If the D800 suits you so much why not go get one and go shoot badgers exiting their hole into a rising sun and bask in the 14 stops of DR.

People get all worked up like its the end of the world because Nikon might have made a better camera
really who cares if it is better. And if it is better the difference is pretty marginal in reallity. Just go get one and be happy you are better than canon wielding plebs

But turning every single thread into a Troll fest of Noink has uber DR canon is rubbish is far beyond tiresome

[maxxevv]

Thank you for strengthening my distaste in narrow minded fanboys. You do see everything in black and white, don't you?
Everyone who doesn't love Canon's latest camera must be a Nikon troll, right? 

Not everyone. But its just the way you word things that turn people off.

Its the same as the old story of people bashing the 5DII's AF based on not more than 20 shots on the camera. And people praising to the high heavens the D300s and D700's 51 pt AF being the be-all and end-all based on numerical specifications.

If you have spent sufficient time ( and that I mean many months and at least 10,000 deliberate and planned shots) with these cameras, much of these can be debunked. I have spent plenty of time on my 5DII and my friend's D300s to say that these stories were all off the mark.  The 5DII has a very capable AF, if you know the limitations of the lenses you're using and also the frame-rate as I shoot mostly sport with it. The D300s though it has 51 pts in theory, you can't really use all of them except for 'not so fast moving' objects in really good light.  Else you'll have to dumb down the number of useable points to achieve the predictability and speed of response of what's built-in as default on the 7D for comparison. In fact, in really poor light, the 5DII was a lot more responsive and predictable as compared to the D300s with full 51pts enabled.

Likewise your tone on 5DIII and D800 comparison. Have you spent similar amounts of time and shooting experience with both cameras to have explored all the strengths and flaws of both cameras to compare ? If not, you're pretty much trolling off others heresy from the web. SHOUTING on forums doesn't make you heard ... it just turns people off like in any normal conversation.

[Rocky]

If this rumor is true, It will be a disaster. It will have slow AF as the G1-X. It will have worst picture quality than the Rebel. It will be bigger than the G1-X, due to the lens is outside of the body. It will be more expensive than the G1-X. This camera is aiming at consumer. They will be better off either buying the G1-X or the Rebel. I just hope that this is really a rumor.

[Neeneko]

If this rumor is true, It will be a disaster. It will have slow AF as the GX-1. It will have worst picture quality than the Rebel. It will be bigger than the GX-1, due to the lens is outside of the body. It will be more expensive than the GX-1. This camera is aiming at consumer. They will be better off either buying the Gx-1 or the Rebel. I just hope that this is really a rumor.

Probably is just a rumor, or at minimal is part rumor, but everything in it sounds plausible from a marketing perspective if your goal is to introduce a camera designed to do what everyone else is doing (including yourself) but with your own brand on it.   Marketing is filled with misguided attempts to compete in new spaces by throwing in an undifferentiated but branded entry... it is more about having a horse in the race then trying to actually win.. which isn't a good idea, but Canon has such a market dominance right now they probably are not too worried... and that can be bad.

[moreorless]

If this rumor is true, It will be a disaster. It will have slow AF as the GX-1. It will have worst picture quality than the Rebel. It will be bigger than the GX-1, due to the lens is outside of the body. It will be more expensive than the GX-1. This camera is aiming at consumer. They will be better off either buying the Gx-1 or the Rebel. I just hope that this is really a rumor.

There have been rumours of Canon on sensor Phase AF so I wouldnt be supprized if we see it on the mirrorless.

The G1X was following on from a line of cameras that have always had "chucky" bodies with large manual controls and an OVF, I wouldnt say it follows that a mirrorless will go the same direction.

I think we can see with the Nikon 1 that a big brand + mirrorless = sales even if the product is inferior in many peoples eyes and very highly priced, thats why I'd expect an entry level mirrorless first from Canon.

[AvTvM]

...
However, I have tried it, and my conclusion is the same as most other's (except the hardcore fanboys). The 5D3 is a good camera, just like the 5D2, but with no sensor improvement. It's sensor pales in comparison to the main competitions latest offering (the D800).

I think your analysis of the 5DIII is rather like saying a D800 is an upgrade of a D700 - totally off mark.

Nope. The D800 is the true successor of the 5D2. Too bad it has a Nikon-badge on it.

Exactly! 

[AvTvM]

Kinda hard to have hope after the 5D3 sensor,

does rather make it sound like there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor ie a fact
If instead you had said something along the lines of
"The 5DIII sensor appears to have fallen behind the D800 sensor" then that would have been a valid opinion

Nothing "appears to be" ... there is plenty of visual evidence available showing that there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor:
* it HAS seriously less DR than the D800's sensor in DR from ISO 100 all the way up to ISO3200.
* it HAS seriously less resolution than the D800 at all ISO settings. 
* it IS only a minor update on the 3+ year old 5D2 sensor.
Facts, not fiction, whether Canon fanboys like it or not. 

It is not a fact yet, but well founded speculation, that the upcoming Canon mirrorless will be nothing more than a G1X with a lens mount. Like the G1X it will likely deliver better IQ than P&S but I do not expect it to beat the best mFT mirrorless entires ... eg. Oly OM-D. Performance, AF, responsiveness and UI will  "consumer-crappy" - as on the G1X.

[dilbert]

It is not a fact yet, but well founded speculation, that the upcoming Canon mirrorless will be nothing more than a G1X with a lens mount. Like the G1X it will likely deliver better IQ than P&S but I do not expect it to beat the best mFT mirrorless entires ... eg. Oly OM-D. Performance, AF, responsiveness and UI will  "consumer-crappy" - as on the G1X.

The G1X sensor is the best in its class, so I don't know what you're worried about.

Oh, except that Canon will keep using the same sensor (or minor variations thereof) for the next 3 to 5 years...

[AvTvM]

The G1X sensor is the best in its class, so I don't know what you're worried about.

it is easy to be "best in class" if class size equals 1, right?

The G1X sensor size is a totally unnecessary oddity. Other alternatives would have been far preferable - and even more so on a coming mirrorless:

A) Either a sensor fully within the mFT specs ... a Canon mirrorless with mFT-sensor and mFT-mount in front to utilize any mFT lens on the market would be really cool. Then we could see, whether Canon can build better small-sensored mirrorless system cameras than Olympus an dPanasonic!

B) Or - if it has to be "proprietary Canon" rather than "open-standard mFT", then a 3:2 APS-C sensor. If Sony can fit an APS-C sensor into a NEX-sized body, Canon outta be able to stick an APS-C sensor inton the more bulky G1X body. AS a matter of fact, I would have liked to see the new EOS 650D sensor with Hybrid-AF in the G1X and in Canon's mirrorless - as long as they are not able and willing to build a truly "class-leading" Hi-End FF mirrorless.

But no ... its gotta be Canon-proprietary, odd and very likely inferior to competitive products.

[psolberg]

It is not a fact yet, but well founded speculation, that the upcoming Canon mirrorless will be nothing more than a G1X with a lens mount. Like the G1X it will likely deliver better IQ than P&S but I do not expect it to beat the best mFT mirrorless entires ... eg. Oly OM-D. Performance, AF, responsiveness and UI will  "consumer-crappy" - as on the G1X.

The G1X sensor is the best in its class, so I don't know what you're worried about.

Oh, except that Canon will keep using the same sensor (or minor variations thereof) for the next 3 to 5 years...

G1X sensor is small. 1.9X crop factor. that's quite a bit smaller than APS-C but slightly larger than m4/3 (crop factor 2x). That's the worry. I would have rather see a sony NEX competitor with an APS-C. If canon opts G1X sensor size, sony will pretty much become the system to go to if you want the ultimate quality in a mirrorless body. That assumes off course that Nikon doesn't put out an APSC based system since their CX system is aimed more at the point and shoot market than at any person that cares for image quality.

[dilbert]

The G1X sensor is the best in its class, so I don't know what you're worried about.

it is easy to be "best in class" if class size equals 1, right?

The G1X sensor size is a totally unnecessary oddity. Other alternatives would have been far preferable - and even more so on a coming mirrorless:

A) Either a sensor fully within the mFT specs ... a Canon mirrorless with mFT-sensor and mFT-mount in front to utilize any mFT lens on the market would be really cool. Then we could see, whether Canon can build better small-sensored mirrorless system cameras than Olympus an dPanasonic!

B) Or - if it has to be "proprietary Canon" rather than "open-standard mFT", then a 3:2 APS-C sensor. If Sony can fit an APS-C sensor into a NEX-sized body, Canon outta be able to stick an APS-C sensor inton the more bulky G1X body. AS a matter of fact, I would have liked to see the new EOS 650D sensor with Hybrid-AF in the G1X and in Canon's mirrorless - as long as they are not able and willing to build a truly "class-leading" Hi-End FF mirrorless.

But no ... its gotta be Canon-proprietary, odd and very likely inferior to competitive products.

The NEX-7 is the top of the line Sony mirrorless camera.

If the one being introduced by Canon is just the consumer end then not having APS-C is perfectly fine as neither do any of the other entry level mirrorless cameras.

So we'll have to wait and see if Canon bring out a competitor to the NEX-7 because this first camera is not going to be it.

[maxxevv]

So we'll have to wait and see if Canon bring out a competitor to the NEX-7 because this first camera is not going to be it.

Agreed.

Mass market is where the money is, and making money more often than not has been Canon's priority. So, its highly plausible that they will want to target something that they can push numbers. Quickly. And as odd as it sounds, a high-spec MIL camera is by general consideration to be 'niche' ..

As much as its a dream for me that there's an EF-mount FF MIL camera, that's highly unlikely to happen for a while. Because the market hasn't been saturated to the point that such a segregation niche is required at this point in time. Well, at least that's what I think Canon is considering. 

But who knows, they may very well spring a surprise on us ?? 

[briansquibb]

Kinda hard to have hope after the 5D3 sensor,

does rather make it sound like there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor ie a fact
If instead you had said something along the lines of
"The 5DIII sensor appears to have fallen behind the D800 sensor" then that would have been a valid opinion

Nothing "appears to be" ... there is plenty of visual evidence available showing that there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor:
* it HAS seriously less DR than the D800's sensor in DR from ISO 100 all the way up to ISO3200.
* it HAS seriously less resolution than the D800 at all ISO settings. 
* it IS only a minor update on the 3+ year old 5D2 sensor.
Facts, not fiction, whether Canon fanboys like it or not. 

There is nothing wrong with the 5DIII sensor - it does what it promises to do.

You may think the D800 sensor is better - however that does not alter the fact that the 5DIII does its job as promised on the spec sheet.

In my opinion you are intentionally trolling the forum

[Neeneko]

If the one being introduced by Canon is just the consumer end then not having APS-C is perfectly fine as neither do any of the other entry level mirrorless cameras.

This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.

[Rocky]

If the one being introduced by Canon is just the consumer end then not having APS-C is perfectly fine as neither do any of the other entry level mirrorless cameras.

This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.

Agree. The differentiation between "consumer", and "prosumer" level should be feature, not sensor size. Plus developing TWO seperate system based on sensor size is EXPENSIVE. Canon should start mirrorless with APS-C sensor with "basic" features for consumer and more features and weather sealing for prosumers.  NEX 7 exists because people wants better IQ than the M4/3. Sony also made NEX 5N for "consumer".