December 02, 2016, 09:59:03 PM

Author Topic: Canon's Mirrorless Entry  (Read 22819 times)

maxxevv

  • Guest
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2012, 01:23:26 AM »
Thank you for strengthening my distaste in narrow minded fanboys. You do see everything in black and white, don't you?
Everyone who doesn't love Canon's latest camera must be a Nikon troll, right?  ::)

Not everyone. But its just the way you word things that turn people off.

Its the same as the old story of people bashing the 5DII's AF based on not more than 20 shots on the camera. And people praising to the high heavens the D300s and D700's 51 pt AF being the be-all and end-all based on numerical specifications.

If you have spent sufficient time ( and that I mean many months and at least 10,000 deliberate and planned shots) with these cameras, much of these can be debunked. I have spent plenty of time on my 5DII and my friend's D300s to say that these stories were all off the mark.  The 5DII has a very capable AF, if you know the limitations of the lenses you're using and also the frame-rate as I shoot mostly sport with it. The D300s though it has 51 pts in theory, you can't really use all of them except for 'not so fast moving' objects in really good light.  Else you'll have to dumb down the number of useable points to achieve the predictability and speed of response of what's built-in as default on the 7D for comparison. In fact, in really poor light, the 5DII was a lot more responsive and predictable as compared to the D300s with full 51pts enabled.

Likewise your tone on 5DIII and D800 comparison. Have you spent similar amounts of time and shooting experience with both cameras to have explored all the strengths and flaws of both cameras to compare ? If not, you're pretty much trolling off others heresy from the web. SHOUTING on forums doesn't make you heard ... it just turns people off like in any normal conversation.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2012, 01:23:26 AM »

Rocky

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 769
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2012, 01:42:39 AM »
If this rumor is true, It will be a disaster. It will have slow AF as the G1-X. It will have worst picture quality than the Rebel. It will be bigger than the G1-X, due to the lens is outside of the body. It will be more expensive than the G1-X. This camera is aiming at consumer. They will be better off either buying the G1-X or the Rebel. I just hope that this is really a rumor.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 03:00:36 PM by Rocky »

Neeneko

  • Guest
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2012, 02:03:59 AM »
If this rumor is true, It will be a disaster. It will have slow AF as the GX-1. It will have worst picture quality than the Rebel. It will be bigger than the GX-1, due to the lens is outside of the body. It will be more expensive than the GX-1. This camera is aiming at consumer. They will be better off either buying the Gx-1 or the Rebel. I just hope that this is really a rumor.

Probably is just a rumor, or at minimal is part rumor, but everything in it sounds plausible from a marketing perspective if your goal is to introduce a camera designed to do what everyone else is doing (including yourself) but with your own brand on it.   Marketing is filled with misguided attempts to compete in new spaces by throwing in an undifferentiated but branded entry... it is more about having a horse in the race then trying to actually win.. which isn't a good idea, but Canon has such a market dominance right now they probably are not too worried... and that can be bad.

moreorless

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 751
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2012, 03:15:43 AM »
If this rumor is true, It will be a disaster. It will have slow AF as the GX-1. It will have worst picture quality than the Rebel. It will be bigger than the GX-1, due to the lens is outside of the body. It will be more expensive than the GX-1. This camera is aiming at consumer. They will be better off either buying the Gx-1 or the Rebel. I just hope that this is really a rumor.

There have been rumours of Canon on sensor Phase AF so I wouldnt be supprized if we see it on the mirrorless.

The G1X was following on from a line of cameras that have always had "chucky" bodies with large manual controls and an OVF, I wouldnt say it follows that a mirrorless will go the same direction.

I think we can see with the Nikon 1 that a big brand + mirrorless = sales even if the product is inferior in many peoples eyes and very highly priced, thats why I'd expect an entry level mirrorless first from Canon.

AvTvM

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2276
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2012, 04:13:07 AM »
...
However, I have tried it, and my conclusion is the same as most other's (except the hardcore fanboys). The 5D3 is a good camera, just like the 5D2, but with no sensor improvement. It's sensor pales in comparison to the main competitions latest offering (the D800).

I think your analysis of the 5DIII is rather like saying a D800 is an upgrade of a D700 - totally off mark.
Nope. The D800 is the true successor of the 5D2. Too bad it has a Nikon-badge on it.

Exactly! 

AvTvM

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2276
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2012, 04:24:22 AM »
Quote
Kinda hard to have hope after the 5D3 sensor,
does rather make it sound like there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor ie a fact
If instead you had said something along the lines of
"The 5DIII sensor appears to have fallen behind the D800 sensor" then that would have been a valid opinion
Nothing "appears to be" ... there is plenty of visual evidence available showing that there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor:
* it HAS seriously less DR than the D800's sensor in DR from ISO 100 all the way up to ISO3200.
* it HAS seriously less resolution than the D800 at all ISO settings.  :P
* it IS only a minor update on the 3+ year old 5D2 sensor.
Facts, not fiction, whether Canon fanboys like it or not. 

It is not a fact yet, but well founded speculation, that the upcoming Canon mirrorless will be nothing more than a G1X with a lens mount. Like the G1X it will likely deliver better IQ than P&S but I do not expect it to beat the best mFT mirrorless entires ... eg. Oly OM-D. Performance, AF, responsiveness and UI will  "consumer-crappy" - as on the G1X.

AvTvM

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2276
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2012, 06:35:37 AM »
The G1X sensor is the best in its class, so I don't know what you're worried about.
it is easy to be "best in class" if class size equals 1, right?

The G1X sensor size is a totally unnecessary oddity. Other alternatives would have been far preferable - and even more so on a coming mirrorless:

A) Either a sensor fully within the mFT specs ... a Canon mirrorless with mFT-sensor and mFT-mount in front to utilize any mFT lens on the market would be really cool. Then we could see, whether Canon can build better small-sensored mirrorless system cameras than Olympus an dPanasonic!

B) Or - if it has to be "proprietary Canon" rather than "open-standard mFT", then a 3:2 APS-C sensor. If Sony can fit an APS-C sensor into a NEX-sized body, Canon outta be able to stick an APS-C sensor inton the more bulky G1X body. AS a matter of fact, I would have liked to see the new EOS 650D sensor with Hybrid-AF in the G1X and in Canon's mirrorless - as long as they are not able and willing to build a truly "class-leading" Hi-End FF mirrorless.

But no ... its gotta be Canon-proprietary, odd and very likely inferior to competitive products.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2012, 06:35:37 AM »

psolberg

  • Canon 7D MK II
  • *****
  • Posts: 550
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2012, 06:41:41 AM »
It is not a fact yet, but well founded speculation, that the upcoming Canon mirrorless will be nothing more than a G1X with a lens mount. Like the G1X it will likely deliver better IQ than P&S but I do not expect it to beat the best mFT mirrorless entires ... eg. Oly OM-D. Performance, AF, responsiveness and UI will  "consumer-crappy" - as on the G1X.

The G1X sensor is the best in its class, so I don't know what you're worried about.

Oh, except that Canon will keep using the same sensor (or minor variations thereof) for the next 3 to 5 years...

G1X sensor is small. 1.9X crop factor. that's quite a bit smaller than APS-C but slightly larger than m4/3 (crop factor 2x). That's the worry. I would have rather see a sony NEX competitor with an APS-C. If canon opts G1X sensor size, sony will pretty much become the system to go to if you want the ultimate quality in a mirrorless body. That assumes off course that Nikon doesn't put out an APSC based system since their CX system is aimed more at the point and shoot market than at any person that cares for image quality.


maxxevv

  • Guest
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2012, 07:38:58 AM »

So we'll have to wait and see if Canon bring out a competitor to the NEX-7 because this first camera is not going to be it.

Agreed.

Mass market is where the money is, and making money more often than not has been Canon's priority. So, its highly plausible that they will want to target something that they can push numbers. Quickly. And as odd as it sounds, a high-spec MIL camera is by general consideration to be 'niche' ..

As much as its a dream for me that there's an EF-mount FF MIL camera, that's highly unlikely to happen for a while. Because the market hasn't been saturated to the point that such a segregation niche is required at this point in time. Well, at least that's what I think Canon is considering. 

But who knows, they may very well spring a surprise on us ??  :o

briansquibb

  • Guest
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2012, 08:22:54 AM »
Quote
Kinda hard to have hope after the 5D3 sensor,
does rather make it sound like there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor ie a fact
If instead you had said something along the lines of
"The 5DIII sensor appears to have fallen behind the D800 sensor" then that would have been a valid opinion
Nothing "appears to be" ... there is plenty of visual evidence available showing that there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor:
* it HAS seriously less DR than the D800's sensor in DR from ISO 100 all the way up to ISO3200.
* it HAS seriously less resolution than the D800 at all ISO settings.  :P
* it IS only a minor update on the 3+ year old 5D2 sensor.
Facts, not fiction, whether Canon fanboys like it or not. 


There is nothing wrong with the 5DIII sensor - it does what it promises to do.

You may think the D800 sensor is better - however that does not alter the fact that the 5DIII does its job as promised on the spec sheet.

In my opinion you are intentionally trolling the forum


Neeneko

  • Guest
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2012, 08:28:33 AM »
If the one being introduced by Canon is just the consumer end then not having APS-C is perfectly fine as neither do any of the other entry level mirrorless cameras.

This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.

Rocky

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 769
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2012, 12:26:09 PM »
If the one being introduced by Canon is just the consumer end then not having APS-C is perfectly fine as neither do any of the other entry level mirrorless cameras.

This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.
Agree. The differentiation between "consumer", and "prosumer" level should be feature, not sensor size. Plus developing TWO seperate system based on sensor size is EXPENSIVE. Canon should start mirrorless with APS-C sensor with "basic" features for consumer and more features and weather sealing for prosumers.  NEX 7 exists because people wants better IQ than the M4/3. Sony also made NEX 5N for "consumer".

c.d.embrey

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 604
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2012, 01:25:55 PM »
One advantage Canon has over most others is their amazing EF and EF-S lens selection. 

This amazing lens selection is the reason I've switched my FFFilm cameras for Canon to Nikon. And when I replace my DSLRs at the end of the year, I doubt it will be with new Canon DSLRs.

I'm waiting to see the Canon Mirrorless, before I decide what mirrorless system to buy into. The Olympus E-M5 has great IQ and a selection of lenses that get better day. Schneider has announce that they will make their ultra high quality lenses in M43 mount. The main problem with the E-M5 is the Fugly Retro Design -- hope Canon can do better.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2012, 01:25:55 PM »

fifowarehouse

  • Guest
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2012, 04:19:52 PM »

For mirroless, I was hoping for bigger sensor like APS-C or FF.  Be able to shoot under low light like 5D III is AWESOME.
 

Rocky

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 769
Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2012, 04:55:39 PM »

For mirroless, I was hoping for bigger sensor like APS-C or FF.  Be able to shoot under low light like 5D III is AWESOME.
One of the advantage of "mirrorless" is that it allow at least one if two step of slower shutter speed due to the lack of mirror movement. If canon put a small sensor in their "mirrorless" and force user to go into lower ISO in low light. That will take this advantage away.  What is Canon's marketing/Engineering thinking???

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2012, 04:55:39 PM »