Announcement Day July 23, 2012? [CR2]

[rpt]

Safe is having someone with you that you can out run.  I still hope it is the 200-400, for I will be shooting Bears as well, but they come from Chicago...

LOL

Thank you. That was a good start to my morning.

[elflord]

If Canon can make a camera like this with an "affordable" pricetag (around 3.5K instead of Leicas 7K), it will be a huge success! Especially among people who wants to go mirrorless without sacrificing image quality, thin DOF capabilities and high ISO performance.

The biggest plus of FF mirrorless would be that you could adapt pretty much any lens that has ever been made and get the full fov. APS-C and m43 take normal length and tele lenses quite well, but the options for adapted wide angle lenses are limited.

Other than that, it would have the downside that it would mean the native lenses would all have to be larger, so the camera would be larger and heavier than m43, Sony or other contenders.

The Leica is typically used with normal length primes. If you want to use a fast zoom, it will be big (the m43 12-35mm f/2.8 zoom is 300gm)

Anyway, this strikes me as a bit academic. My money is on Canon releasing two slow zooms and a wide pancake prime. I don't understand why anyone would want to "wait" for Canon.  They are just too far behind at this stage to be compelling. m43 have the 25mm f/1.4, the 45mm f/1.8, 20mm f/1.7, 12mm f/2 a 45mm macro, the panasonic 7-14mm and now the 12-35mm f/2.8. Canon won't have anything close to this.

Being able to adapt lenses is fun, but it's not a satisfactory substitute for having a good selection of native lenses. Unless the native lenses are good enough to cover the majority of shooting scenarios, there is little reason to prefer the mirrorless over a native (EF mount) body

[briansquibb]

If Canon can make a camera like this with an "affordable" pricetag (around 3.5K instead of Leicas 7K), it will be a huge success! Especially among people who wants to go mirrorless without sacrificing image quality, thin DOF capabilities and high ISO performance.

The biggest plus of FF mirrorless would be that you could adapt pretty much any lens that has ever been made and get the full fov. APS-C and m43 take normal length and tele lenses quite well, but the options for adapted wide angle lenses are limited.

Other than that, it would have the downside that it would mean the native lenses would all have to be larger, so the camera would be larger and heavier than m43, Sony or other contenders.

The Leica is typically used with normal length primes. If you want to use a fast zoom, it will be big (the m43 12-35mm f/2.8 zoom is 300gm)

Anyway, this strikes me as a bit academic. My money is on Canon releasing two slow zooms and a wide pancake prime. I don't understand why anyone would want to "wait" for Canon.  They are just too far behind at this stage to be compelling. m43 have the 25mm f/1.4, the 45mm f/1.8, 20mm f/1.7, 12mm f/2 a 45mm macro, the panasonic 7-14mm and now the 12-35mm f/2.8. Canon won't have anything close to this.

Being able to adapt lenses is fun, but it's not a satisfactory substitute for having a good selection of native lenses. Unless the native lenses are good enough to cover the majority of shooting scenarios, there is little reason to prefer the mirrorless over a native (EF mount) body

OK we get it that you are a M43 fan

To speculate on Canon coming into the M43 market place at this late stage and going head to head with the established M43 brands just doesn't make marketing sense.

Why not wait? Unless your kit is broken then sitting on your wallet might be a wise move

[akiskev]

The digital viewfinder has a multitude of advantages over the optical viewfinder. First, by leaving it in the same spot as the optical viewfinder we can retain a familiar form factor yet eliminate most of the mechanicals of the camera... no more shutter... longer battery life, longer camera life... and you can adjust brightness/contrast/gamma on a digital viewfinder... try that on optical!

Cool story, but a camera in constant live view mode is consuming way more energy than a camera with a shutter/mirror mechanism and live view off.
Plus resolution is not the only problem in electronic viewfinders. We need high refresh rates to minimize tearing. I'd say 120Hz.
The only decent evf in the market is Sony's, but even that has big problems while panning. Of course in the future things will get better..

[elflord]

OK we get it that you are a M43 fan

To speculate on Canon coming into the M43 market place at this late stage and going head to head with the established M43 brands just doesn't make marketing sense.

I'm not saying that Canon should go m43. I'm saying that Canon are quite a long way behind their competition. Whether or not they choose to develop their own system, they still need to compete with other, more mature systems.

Not just m43 -- Samsung and even Sony already have a better lens lineup than Canon will at launch. BTW, I'm not any kind of "fan". I'm in the "use the right tool for the job" camp. I use a Canon DSLR (5DMk II), and a Panasonic GF2 with the 20mm f/1.7 as my "compact" but would upgrade to the Olympus OM-D in a heartbeat if they were cheaper. I'm not cheerleading for any brand.  Canon, in my opinion are the leader in full frame portrait DSLRs, but they aren't even a contender in the mirrorless market (and won't be for some time.

Why not wait? Unless your kit is broken then sitting on your wallet might be a wise move

If you're not in the market for a mirrorless system, then there's nothing to "wait" for. If you are in the market for a mirrorless system, there's not much point waiting for Canon. You won't just be waiting until July 24, you'll be waiting for them to announce and deliver a decent lens lineup.

[briansquibb]

It seems that a mirrorless Canon camera is pure speculation - and I am not convinced that the technology is there for anything but the low end cameras

[ramon123]

I assume that if CR rated it a "CR2" then there must be some solid evidence to its arrival.

[briansquibb]

I assume that if CR rated it a "CR2" then there must be some solid evidence to its arrival.

It doesn't say it is a high end camera

[wickidwombat]

I still think they should make the sensor size somewhere in between full frame and APS-C in size

[gmrza]

I still think they should make the sensor size somewhere in between full frame and APS-C in size

I have my doubts that they will make the sensor any larger than APS-C.  I think the 1.5" (G1X) size is more likely.  What I would hope is that they design a lens mount which permits a light circle to cover an APS-C frame, even if they use a 1.5" sensor.
There could be a market for a system which uses two sensor sizes - around 1" at the low end for entry level models and APS-C at the high end - much the way the EOS system has supported full frame, APS-C, APS-H and Super-35.
By using different sensor sizes in one system, Canon could build more economies of scale by accommodating a wider range of models from entry level to high end, and thus more shared components.

A system with two sensor sizes may also have a greater marketing ability to capture P&S upgraders at the bottom end of the market, and grow them into more demanding photographers.

[wickidwombat]

I still think they should make the sensor size somewhere in between full frame and APS-C in size

I have my doubts that they will make the sensor any larger than APS-C.  I think the 1.5" (G1X) size is more likely.  What I would hope is that they design a lens mount which permits a light circle to cover an APS-C frame, even if they use a 1.5" sensor.
There could be a market for a system which uses two sensor sizes - around 1" at the low end for entry level models and APS-C at the high end - much the way the EOS system has supported full frame, APS-C, APS-H and Super-35.
By using different sensor sizes in one system, Canon could build more economies of scale by accommodating a wider range of models from entry level to high end, and thus more shared components.

A system with two sensor sizes may also have a greater marketing ability to capture P&S upgraders at the bottom end of the market, and grow them into more demanding photographers.

I hear ya, that all makes perfect sense and is more probabable
however Canon have a unique opportunity that the other manufacturers dont have

lets say that regardless of sensor size they are going to need a new mount and thus new lenses that take advantage of the lack of a mirror.

since Canon already have advanced APS-H sensor tech which produces Image quality almost as good as Full frame they could realistically make such a beast which will hand leica their Arse mainly due to the most likely massive cost difference, the APS-C to M43 space is crammed with other manufacturers competing. Also all these systems are quite advanced and have user bases. I doubt canon are likely to be that competative in this realm. they are quite late to the party which is already in full swing.

of course no matter what canon does having a good EF adapter is going to give them a solid advantage to be able to leverage their massive strength of fantastic lens selection.

A higher end mirrorless with larger sensor is going to really take it to the overpriced leicas and I think it will be a huge hit. in this market they would only really be competing with leica and offering AF will be just one of its many strengths over the expensive german.

I wonder if they might down the track develop a small sensor mirrorless and a larger sensor mirrorless.

[gmrza]

I hear ya, that all makes perfect sense and is more probabable
however Canon have a unique opportunity that the other manufacturers dont have

I wonder how much of an issue it would be to develop a lens mount that permits an image circle supporting APS-H or 36x24mm.  A larger sensor will need a larger flange to focal plane clearance, however Canon could always do something similar to what they have done with EF-S and recess the optics of lenses with a smaller light circle into the body, keeping in mind that there is no mirror to worry about.

That way, Canon ends up with a system that could house sensors from 1" to APS-H or full frame.  Granted, the body would have to be a bit chunkier than a Nikon 1, because all bodies would have to use the same basic mount and flange to focal plane distance.  Bodies with a smaller sensor would however yield a more compact system, due to the ability to recess some of the optics into the camera body, and have less of the lens protruding in front of the body. - Keep in mind, overall (lens + body) dimensions are what count, not just the dimensions of the body.

[wickidwombat]

I hear ya, that all makes perfect sense and is more probabable
however Canon have a unique opportunity that the other manufacturers dont have

I wonder how much of an issue it would be to develop a lens mount that permits an image circle supporting APS-H or 36x24mm.  A larger sensor will need a larger flange to focal plane clearance, however Canon could always do something similar to what they have done with EF-S and recess the optics of lenses with a smaller light circle into the body, keeping in mind that there is no mirror to worry about.

That way, Canon ends up with a system that could house sensors from 1" to APS-H or full frame.  Granted, the body would have to be a bit chunkier than a Nikon 1, because all bodies would have to use the same basic mount and flange to focal plane distance.  Bodies with a smaller sensor would however yield a more compact system, due to the ability to recess some of the optics into the camera body, and have less of the lens protruding in front of the body. - Keep in mind, overall (lens + body) dimensions are what count, not just the dimensions of the body.

I think this would be a smart more and a great idea. Then have 2 mirrorless body ranges the range that go against the smaller cheaper ones and the more expensive bad boy that will step into the ring with leica, currently leica dont really have any competition. I wonder how their pricing would react if they suddenly had a serious contender

[ramon123]

I hear ya, that all makes perfect sense and is more probabable
however Canon have a unique opportunity that the other manufacturers dont have

I wonder how much of an issue it would be to develop a lens mount that permits an image circle supporting APS-H or 36x24mm.  A larger sensor will need a larger flange to focal plane clearance, however Canon could always do something similar to what they have done with EF-S and recess the optics of lenses with a smaller light circle into the body, keeping in mind that there is no mirror to worry about.

That way, Canon ends up with a system that could house sensors from 1" to APS-H or full frame.  Granted, the body would have to be a bit chunkier than a Nikon 1, because all bodies would have to use the same basic mount and flange to focal plane distance.  Bodies with a smaller sensor would however yield a more compact system, due to the ability to recess some of the optics into the camera body, and have less of the lens protruding in front of the body. - Keep in mind, overall (lens + body) dimensions are what count, not just the dimensions of the body.

Do you really think that Canon wants to compete with Leica? Those cameras are so expensive!

[gmrza]

Do you really think that Canon wants to compete with Leica? Those cameras are so expensive!

Apart from Leica cameras being so expensive, they probably occupy such a small market niche that it is not worth Canon's while to pursue.