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Author Topic: Is SLR dead?  (Read 18607 times)

Rocky

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2012, 08:43:21 PM »
... , you must agree in a purely practical sense that the unit cost of something that sells 10'000 editions is going to be less than something that sells 200?
Especially with design and high technology?

yes.

But ...
if Canon brings to market an APS-C sensored mirrorless system camera that does everything the 650D does (with great EVF instead of tunnel-vision Rebel-OVF, minus mirror box and mirror slap) at the same price as a 650D ... plus a few matching pancake fixed focals the size and optical quality of the  40/2.8 plus a few ultra-compact zooms ...  all of which I consider to be very well be possible ...  they will sell them in the millions.

And ...
if Canon brings to market a 135-sensored ("FF") mirrorless system body the size of a Minolta CLE (=smaller than a Leica M9), that does everything the 5D 3 does at the price of the 5D 3 ... they will sell them by the millions. Especially if this camera would come with an electrified Leica M-mount up front. Backwards compatible with all M-mount manual focus lenses. Plus a few, new, nice and very compact Canon "E-M" lenses with USM-AF and optical quality close to the Leicas but at half the price ... they would sell gazillions.

I would order the latter system, as a matter of fact. :-)

Sounds like you would like to have everything Pus the kitchen sink.

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2012, 08:43:21 PM »

itsnotmeyouknow

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2012, 08:43:44 PM »
For amateurs and vacationers yes, definitely.  This will overtake the Rebel-end line up over time.   But it's a 2.7x crop camera, and the behavior of the lenses won't match the behavior of full frame lenses at the same calculated focal length views in terms of background compression and DOF, etc. etc.

nono… i think that camera with bigger sensors and so on will become non-slr too

I have the Pentax 645D which has a 44mm x 33mm CCD sensor.  There are no medium format sensors using CMOS and no Live view with any MF camera.  Without the use of CMOS MF sensors there will be no mirror free medium format.  With Kodak hitting the skids (they make the sensor for the 645D and the Leica S2) I can't see investment happening in this sector a little while and I believe that the circuitry in a CCD sensor of that size would not be able to handle Live view.

paul13walnut5

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2012, 09:40:12 PM »
Don't get hung up with CMOS.  I've been using CCD cameras with 'live view' for the last 23 years. 

Rocky

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2012, 11:17:50 PM »
I cannot understand while people complain about the  price of M9 at $7999 and call it ABSURD,  while no one complain about the Canon 1D X at $6999

Jettatore

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2012, 11:34:56 PM »
I cannot understand while people complain about the  price of M9 at $7999 and call it ABSURD,  while no one complain about the Canon 1D X at $6999

Well one idea (among many other possible ones) would be that the 1DX and other high end EF cameras in or around that price range aren't the only cameras readily available for the EF mount system so your comparison seems a bit forced....  Also, I think you are, however un-fault-ably so, taking out of context the inherent perspective that must be considered of the author of said statement.  When we make statements in English, more often than not, the author of the statement is assumed or completely ignored/omitted (since rarely and with difficultly is the author -as a whole- included/referenced in the statement itself) and the statement often unintentionally yet improperly taken and interpreted by the listener in isolation from it's perspective, leads to frustrations and confusions as seen above. 

From my perspective and current financial position, as a consumer, it seems very reasonable, for me to consider and suggest the price of the Leica system on the whole, absurd, and move on accordingly to suggest to other manufacturers who actually develop products in my price-range - my growing interest in such a system at a different price level.  Does that mean it 'is' absurd, no, - it 'is' what it 'is', and at this point, I'm not so sure it's even that... 

(p.s. the verb 'to be' and it's many forms 'is' etc., very much resembles playing with land-mines, and in using English, proves extremely difficult to avoid...)  Check e-prime on wikipedia and the .pdf's in the 'external links' section at the bottom if your interested in that sort of stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-prime
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 11:45:05 PM by Jettatore »

Rocky

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2012, 12:04:06 AM »
I cannot understand while people complain about the  price of M9 at $7999 and call it ABSURD,  while no one complain about the Canon 1D X at $6999

Well one idea (among many other possible ones) would be that the 1DX and other high end EF cameras in or around that price range aren't the only cameras readily available for the EF mount system so your comparison seems a bit forced....  Also, I think you are, however un-fault-ably so, taking out of context the inherent perspective that must be considered of the author of said statement.  When we make statements in English, more often than not, the author of the statement is assumed or completely ignored/omitted (since rarely and with difficultly is the author -as a whole- included/referenced in the statement itself) and the statement often unintentionally yet improperly taken and interpreted by the listener in isolation from it's perspective, leads to frustrations and confusions as seen above. 

From my perspective and current financial position, as a consumer, it seems very reasonable, for me to consider and suggest the price of the Leica system on the whole, absurd, and move on accordingly to suggest to other manufacturers who actually develop products in my price-range - my growing interest in such a system at a different price level.  Does that mean it 'is' absurd, no, - it 'is' what it 'is', and at this point, I'm not so sure it's even that... 

(p.s. the verb 'to be' and it's many forms 'is' etc., very much resembles playing with land-mines, and in using English, proves extremely difficult to avoid...)  Check e-prime on wikipedia and the .pdf's in the 'external links' section at the bottom if your interested in that sort of stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-prime
You you the word 'Absurdly three times one after another in the same sentence. there is no confussion or misinterpretation about it.  If you want to do back-paddle, it is your call.

Jettatore

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2012, 12:06:31 AM »
From my perspective as a consumer, the price of the Leica system, is absurdly, absurdly, absurd, from my perspective...  From Leica's CEO's perspective, the price of the Leica system is likely absurdly right on target and taking it to the bank.  Bye.

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2012, 12:06:31 AM »

bdunbar79

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2012, 12:08:44 AM »
I guess after reading all of these threads and 1D X and 5D Mark III forums, it seems a lot of people are unhappy with their current gear, AND the new gear for sale.  If there is an absolute perfect camera, it will cost about $27k or more.
2 x 1DX
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itsnotmeyouknow

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2012, 04:54:13 AM »
Don't get hung up with CMOS.  I've been using CCD cameras with 'live view' for the last 23 years.

I know that many compacts have CCD sensors and of course they have 'live view'.  The sensors aren't the size of a medium format sensor though, and if it was possible on a CCD sensor that size I'm sure it would have been done as manual focussing via live wire would be a great USP on MF

Marsu42

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2012, 08:29:29 AM »
From my perspective as a consumer, the price of the Leica system, is absurdly, absurdly, absurd, from my perspective...

The price of premium brands or products is *supposed* to be absurd from a Joe Sixpack's perspective: you don't only buy the product, but the distinction that goes along with it! In economic theory, this is called the "snob effect" since more people buy a product if the cost is higher, reversing the usual price-demand curve.

Even using a Canon big white lens with red ring might give people give a considerable ego boost and will part the crowd in front of you to give the "real" photog the opportunity for stellar shots, even if/he she has no clue about photography and has trouble finding the shutter button.

However, most Canon expensive products don't fall in the "premium", but in the "pro" category because after all Canon is just another japanese tech company producing gadgets like powershots in vietnam or some other desolate low-wage country. Only a few products stand out visually and have a premium appeal like maybe the 50L which looks impressive on a 5d.

FunkyCamera

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2012, 08:42:27 AM »
SLR isn't dead yet or Canon would have made a mirrorless already. They know the business better than anyone in this thread.

The release on the Canon mirrorless system will be the beginning of the end.

paul13walnut5

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2012, 09:31:22 AM »
@FunkyCamera
Quote
The release on the Canon mirrorless system will be the beginning of the end.

Precedent?

Perhaps the example of 4/3's succession by m43.

Nikon have launched the J system and have since launched two of the most interesting conventional DSLRs on the market.

Pentax launched the Q system, yet have also launched the 645D and avant-garde designs like the K-01.

I remember when APS film cameras were the beginning of the end for 35mm cameras...

It's a bold statement to make without even being certain about what Canon will launch and when.

itsnotmeyouknow

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2012, 09:43:45 AM »
I don't believe that when Canon introduces a mirrorless camera that it will be the beginning of the end for DSLR.  There will always be a market for a dslr. I wouldn't exchange my 5D mk III for even a FF mirrorless which I don't see coming out this year at all.  It could become a back up but wouldn't be a main camera as there are compromises to be made with mirrorless.  I'm not all that interested in a rangefinder, although I was tempted by teh Fuji Xpro1.  If canon brought out something similar with a FF sensor it would be very competitive, but still don't think it would kill SLR

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2012, 09:43:45 AM »

archangelrichard

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #88 on: June 30, 2012, 10:40:38 AM »
I have no idea why we keep seeing this kind of comment from people who should know better

NO!

These are different MARKETS (and the mirrorless is the one that is marked for obsoletion already - the phone cam is it's replacement and as technology gets better they will replace all low end cameras (or cameras with phones in them with wifi hubs and .....)

This is the way that market is going - "hand held devices" will replace non-dedicated cameras by taking over that price point / market position

DSLR's are NOT in that market

itsnotmeyouknow

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2012, 10:57:52 AM »
I have no idea why we keep seeing this kind of comment from people who should know better

NO!

These are different MARKETS (and the mirrorless is the one that is marked for obsoletion already - the phone cam is it's replacement and as technology gets better they will replace all low end cameras (or cameras with phones in them with wifi hubs and .....)

This is the way that market is going - "hand held devices" will replace non-dedicated cameras by taking over that price point / market position

DSLR's are NOT in that market

I don't think for a second that the mirrorless system is earmarked for obsoletion.  Compacts may become more like phones and there may end up being an amalgamation.  I do think that mirrorless will grow, and if it grows with more models like the Xpro1 then it will be good growth.  DSLR won't die any time in the foreseeable future but I think that mirrorless will continue to grow as it  has many advantages: it's consumer friendly yet feels like a premium product to consumers.

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Re: Is SLR dead?
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2012, 10:57:52 AM »