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Author Topic: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]  (Read 19671 times)

Eimajm

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2012, 05:43:21 AM »
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera?


Useful for cropping when I'm focal-length or magnification limited.

If more pixels weren't useful for this, teleconverters would also be useless, and they are not.  Even our old optics can do well with a 2x TC on an 18MP 1.6-crop sensor, thus indicating that sensor could go to 72MP and still provide benefit even to an old zoom lens (100-400L).

100-400L + 2x on T2i:
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg


That's like saying I'm shooting birds with a wide angle and need the extra pixels for cropping. Not really the right tools for the job.

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2012, 05:43:21 AM »

KarstenReis

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #91 on: June 30, 2012, 08:14:28 AM »
The whole FF, APS-H, APS-C formats seems to be quite a polarizing topic.  As someone who has only shot with APS-C cameras (450D &7D) and only been able to compare IQ from each format, it seems like there are advantages to each.  FF for studio and landscapes, APS-C for the extra "reach" and APS-H is a compromise between the two that gives some additional reach for sports and wildlife while still delivering very good high ISO IQ (almost as good as the 5D Mark III).  I understand that it was a solution for Canon when FF sensors were too expensive to produce and NOT so that they could deliver faster frame rates, as some people seem to think on here.  I'd like to put in my thought sometimes but it seems like everyone gets their panties in a wad and can't keep even the most basic level of objectivity when it comes to discussing a possible return of APS-H sensors.  Instantly people flame anyone who even mentions that APS-H might actually be good. Gasp!
With that said, unless Canon can improve exponentially on the sensor technology of APS-C, APS-H delivers a lot of advantages with minimal investment in R&D.  I would definitely welcome a new 7D replacement with an APS-H sensor, whatever it's called.  There is definitely a market for Canon to have a "prosumer" body with all the bells and whistles it currently has.  The most common complaint I've heard about the 7D is IQ at both low and high ISO.  What could solve this problem is a move to APS-H! It would deliver better IQ while still providing some of the reach that APS-C delivers.  Yes it is a compromise but I'd see it as a very good one.  A move to FF for the 7D, as some people have wanted, would require the purchase of additional glass that is way out of the budget of most serious amateurs (myself included).  I have to 400 5.6.  A jump up to 500 would cost an additional ~5k for a used Mk I or ~9 for a MkII.  Unless someone wants to give me that money or I win the lottery, I don't see a 500 in my future any time soon.
Wow, that got long quickly.  I just think people need to tone down the rhetoric a little and try to come in with a little more of an open mind. Have a good weekend.

Lee Jay

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #92 on: June 30, 2012, 09:16:05 AM »
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera?


Useful for cropping when I'm focal-length or magnification limited.

If more pixels weren't useful for this, teleconverters would also be useless, and they are not.  Even our old optics can do well with a 2x TC on an 18MP 1.6-crop sensor, thus indicating that sensor could go to 72MP and still provide benefit even to an old zoom lens (100-400L).

100-400L + 2x on T2i:
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg


That's like saying I'm shooting birds with a wide angle and need the extra pixels for cropping. Not really the right tools for the job.


I routinely need a zoom lens for shooting at long focal lengths because I'm shooting aircraft and they move quickly.  They move so quickly that handholding is required.  How many handholdable fast autofocus zoom lenses does Canon make longer than 400mm?  It's common for me to crop to 800-1200mm equivalent focal length, and those extra pixels are a big help.

Now, if Canon wants to make a nice, affordable, handholdable 100-1200 f/4-f/5.6, I'm all for it but I don't think that will happen any time in the foreseeable future as we don't even have materials that could meet those specs.

TTMartin

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2012, 09:40:19 AM »
I'm still seeing Canon's best move is to make the 70D their full frame entry level camera.

Full frame doesn't make a camera a Pro camera, and it's not the sensor that determines the numbering with Canon it's features and build. The 1D, 1D Mk II, 1D Mk III, 1D Mk IV, and 7D are all proof of this.

I'm guessing it would be possible for Canon to build an APS-H 7D Mk II with a modified mirror box, to allow the use of EF-S lenses (with reduced image are like Nikon DX lenses on their FX cameras). Either that or a 7D Mk II with a true APS-H spec sensor which would make it a 16X9 and it also could be designed to accommodate EF-S lenses as the true APS-C and APS-H spec actually have the same sensor height, so they could have the same mirror height, thus accommodating EF-S lenses. The only thing that doesn't make sense with this is that the 7D is more of a sports oriented camera, and a 16X9 sensor would be more in line with video oriented camera. 
Tom

Lee Jay

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #94 on: June 30, 2012, 10:01:59 AM »
The latest I have heard, and spoken about before, is that we’ll see the 70D move up the line. It’ll be specced close to the current 7D, however with a new higher megapixel APS-C sensor.

It seems to me that this could be the cause of the new 7D firmware.  If the 70D comes out before a new 7D does, and it's spec'd higher than the 7D is without the new firmware, that would be embarrassing for Canon.  So they upgraded the 7D firmware to keep the 70D below it in some ways (raw buffer, probably) so they can keep the 7D on the market longer.

Razor2012

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #95 on: June 30, 2012, 10:54:12 AM »

Just giving you the shareholder perspective, which for a publicly-held company is the most important consideration.

Let me re-word it. Prosumer is just a cynical marketing ploy to enrich Canon shareholders. This cynical ploy isn't used by Nikon, another publicly traded company. ;) Maybe Nikon shareholders are already rich enough ;)  ;)

Whatever kind of ploy it is, it must be working...just look at who's got the biggest market share.   ;)
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BXL

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: June 30, 2012, 01:43:35 PM »
The latest I have heard, and spoken about before, is that we’ll see the 70D move up the line. It’ll be specced close to the current 7D, however with a new higher megapixel APS-C sensor.

It seems to me that this could be the cause of the new 7D firmware.  If the 70D comes out before a new 7D does, and it's spec'd higher than the 7D is without the new firmware, that would be embarrassing for Canon.  So they upgraded the 7D firmware to keep the 70D below it in some ways (raw buffer, probably) so they can keep the 7D on the market longer.
IMO the 70D will be cheaper than the 7D (v2). Even if the 70D gets the 19-point AF of the 7D and a better 2X MP Sensor, there are still a few differences to differentiate those two cameras:

1. Speed: The 70D is rumored to have a frame rate of 6 fps, the 7D has 8 fps -> Advantage 7D
2. Buffer: The 70D will most likely keep the max buffer of  ~16 RAW files (58 JPEGs), the 7D maximum RAW buffer is extended to 25 RAW files (130 JPEGs) -> Advantage 7D
3. Memory Cards: SD versus CF -> IMO Advantage 7D, however, some people prefer cheaper and slower SD-Cards.
4. Viewfinder: 70D will most likely keep the viewfinder of the 60D. Thus 96% versus 100% (7D) -> Advantage 7D
5. Body: 70D will most likely keep the polycarbonate resin with glass fibre body on aluminum chassis, the 7D has a magnesium alloy body -> Advantage? Depends on personal preference.

IMO the score is 0:4 in favor of the 7D...

The regular price of the 7D is $1.699 and its currently sold for $1.549. The regular price of the 60D is $1.399 and it's sold for $1.299. IMO the 70D will be most likely a bit more expensive than the 60D without costing as much as the 7D... maybe around $1.499?

Don't forget that the 650D/T4i moved up the line as well, got the AF and the fps of the 60D. However, the price increase was only (at least in Germany) 50,- Euro (about $63).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 02:29:17 PM by BXL »
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: June 30, 2012, 01:43:35 PM »

canonrumorstony

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #97 on: July 01, 2012, 02:08:05 AM »
The only reason
It would cannibalize the sales of the 1D X, thus I don't believe that this rumor comes true.

It most certainly would not because it would be nowhere near the price of the 1DX.

wickidwombat

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #98 on: July 01, 2012, 07:06:05 PM »
the APS-H sensor is an advantage canon has to be able to combat the oposition sensor advantage
I am certain a 22 MP APS-H sensor will deliver better IQ accross the board than the sony 24MP sensor
sure the shadow areas are still going suffer canonitis but lets be realistic its probably 1% of camera users are probably even aware of this being an issue with canon sensors vs nikon

a 22MP APS-H will allow for a 14MP APS-C crop mode

so lets assume they use a single Digic 5+ and the 22MP APS-H delivers 6 FPS as per the 5Dmk3
however in APS-C mode that would equate to about 9.5 FPS for processing the same amount of data
maybe with the grip this might be able to be bumped up to 10 FPS (not sure)
crop mode being a selection you can make regardless of EF or EF-S lens not just lens specific so people can get the FPS boost with big whites, and obviously 14MP files in crop mode would give you a much deeper burst buffer for extended periods of action too

add in the gaples microlenses and the high iso improvements use the 5Dmk3 body, bolt the 1Dmk4 AF system in as is dont put the 61pt system in since the f8 AF of this system will guarantee its a winner no R&D here its good to go.

try keep the price closer to $2000 say $2200 would be smart to try and be competative (but realistically with canons pricing it could be $2500 or even $3000 depending what they are smoking when they decide on the price)

I dont think there would be a sports / wildlife shooter that would pass up something like this
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dlleno

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2012, 01:21:58 AM »
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera?


Useful for cropping when I'm focal-length or magnification limited.

If more pixels weren't useful for this, teleconverters would also be useless, and they are not.  Even our old optics can do well with a 2x TC on an 18MP 1.6-crop sensor, thus indicating that sensor could go to 72MP and still provide benefit even to an old zoom lens (100-400L).

100-400L + 2x on T2i:
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg


That's like saying I'm shooting birds with a wide angle and need the extra pixels for cropping. Not really the right tools for the job.


There are wildlife situations that meet the objective above, namely FOV limited because you cannot get any closer, or buy longer glass,  in which case a higher pixel density crop sensor will outperform a larger sensor of the same generation, cropped in post to obtain the same FOV. 

nicku

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #100 on: July 02, 2012, 01:22:40 AM »
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.

APS-H is D.E.A.D. It was only there for faster frame rates compared to FF. It was a compromise. Canon solved this with the 1DX. The whole point of a crop-sensor lens in a semi-pro body like 7D is just that - the crop factor! Otherwise you'd just get the 5DIII. My left nut to say that APS-H will never ever see the light of day ever again in a new body - it makes absolutely zero sense.



You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The APS-H sensor have no direct competitor

dlleno

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #101 on: July 02, 2012, 01:46:52 AM »
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.

APS-H is D.E.A.D. It was only there for faster frame rates compared to FF. It was a compromise. Canon solved this with the 1DX. The whole point of a crop-sensor lens in a semi-pro body like 7D is just that - the crop factor! Otherwise you'd just get the 5DIII. My left nut to say that APS-H will never ever see the light of day ever again in a new body - it makes absolutely zero sense.



You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The APS-H sensor have no direct competitor

yes. Canon's wildcard, so to speak.  1.3 could be dead, but if it is, it won't be because of the reasons stated.  It will be because the cost versus the compromise between reach and IQ is not in Canon's best interest. 

Also -- the point of a "crop sensor lens" is not (by itself) the crop factor,  it is the cost - APS-C lenses are cheaper to produce.

dlleno

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: July 02, 2012, 01:55:52 AM »
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.



What if it could and was 1.3X crop as well ??

oh boy a 10-22 on a APS-H  body would be cool --  but I doubt that Canon would produce a 1.3x body that could accept today's EF-S lenses.  Clever engineering aside, such a body would utilize more of the image circle than these lenses were designed for, so the optical performance would likely be lackluster.  more vignetting, edges not so sharp...  :(

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: July 02, 2012, 01:55:52 AM »

x-vision

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #103 on: July 02, 2012, 01:57:04 AM »
APS-H is D.E.A.D.

You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The marketing perspective is that  APS-H cannot command the same price as FF.
For example, which of these two cameras would you rather buy:
  • 5DIII: $3500
  • 5DIII-SP (SP=sports), with 16mp 1.3x sensor and 8fps: again, $3500

So, would you pay $3500 for the 5DIII-SP?

If you feel that the 1.3x version should cost less, you know the answer why Canon will never make it  8).

briansquibb

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: July 02, 2012, 02:13:10 AM »
APS-H is D.E.A.D.

You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The marketing perspective is that  APS-H cannot command the same price as FF.
For example, which of these two cameras would you rather buy:
  • 5DIII: $3500
  • 5DIII-SP (SP=sports), with 16mp 1.3x sensor and 8fps: again, $3500

So, would you pay $3500 for the 5DIII-SP?

If you feel that the 1.3x version should cost less, you know the answer why Canon will never make it  8).

I would guess, that if it came in at 5DIII price (and why not - the 1D4 is not much more than the 5DIII) then there would be 2 distinct models, sport and portrait. Rather similar to the 5DII/7D paring which earnt Canon a pile of cash

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: July 02, 2012, 02:13:10 AM »