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Author Topic: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H  (Read 20885 times)

insanitybeard

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2012, 06:22:06 AM »
jrista, thanks for your insights into some of the science behind the sensor properties/issues!

Apologies if this is slightly off the original topic but I suppose it does relate to the advantages/disadvantages of APS-C and pixel density against the larger sensor formats.

Regarding comments made by jrista on the softness:

I started to feel a little bit the same way after I had my 7D for a short while. The thing I've learned, as I've continued to use it, is that the 7D, with a far higher pixel density than most other cameras (particularly full frame cameras), is very succeptible to softening by optical aberrations (in other words, its a hell of a lot more demanding on lenses). Where a 5D II/1D III might be fine with a lens wide open, the same lens used on the 7D at the same aperture would appear somewhat soft...and one thing the 7D does NOT do well is control noise in areas of smoother detail (particularly bokeh, but softness from optical aberrations heightens the effect of noise in detail areas as well.)

I recently learned that stopping down just about all of my lenses just a bit results in far sharper photos, and noise in the areas where it matters...the key subject(s) and the detail within them, appears far less noisy. I will grant that the 7D seems to drop the ball a bit on lower-luminance smooth detail...particularly out of focus backgrounds...bokeh tends to exhibit noise fairly badly when other cameras do not at higher ISO. Not really sure why...perhaps the smaller pixel pitch and surface area heighten the effects of photon shot noise...either way, its an area where improved Q.E. and better SNR in a 7D II could really improve things.

It is interesting to hear your thoughts regarding the affect of optical aberrations on the detail and noise in an image. I have a 7D and use it for landscapes quite a bit and have noticed, particularly with the EF-S 10-22 lens that it does struggle with resolving detail towards the corners. Now I realise that the high pixel density sensor of the 7D will likely show up any failings of the lens, and that with an UWA lens some corner softness is to be expected, and coupled with CA and possibly field curvature as well...... I usually shoot af F/8 but still struggle to get corner to corner sharpness... at high magnification anyway. Fine detail certainly seems to become 'smeared' towards the corners though not consistently, particularly at infinity focus. Maybe that is partly down to focusing and the distance of subjects from the camera, and maybe even my technique. I have also noticed some noise at low ISO in blue/dark sky areas.

None of which takes away from the fact that I think the 7 is a great camera, and certainly not worthy of the 'piece of crap sensor' comments dished out. If I could afford a 5D I would probably go for it but not everybody has that kind of money to blow on a hobby.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 06:37:24 AM by insanitybeard »
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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2012, 06:22:06 AM »

insanitybeard

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2012, 07:51:19 AM »
I don't disagree that the 7D sensor could use some improvement and could the camera do with with an update?
Yes it probably could, but to be fair to it, the sensor technology is nigh on 3 years older compared to the 3200 sensor you mention.
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Bosman

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2012, 12:03:12 PM »
Lets be frank here, the 7d is a sports camera intended for that. The 5d is landscape and journalism. The d series are more all encompassing however the 1ds series was intended to render finer details while the 1d series does it all it was more intended for sports. I am not saying this is all they can do i am saying the combinations of sensor, build, Frames per second, iso range, detail rendering are all playing together to make up the optimum use for each camera. Every camera can manage all things but every camera handles optimally in what Canon intended them to be. In my opinion the 1dx falls short, while it is incredible it lacks resolution for those who do magazine shoots and such. Canon is going to send them to Nikon or to Phase one and Hasselblad and the likes. I realize many of those prob never use an SLR format but many SLR users want to just get another SLR body to use with their lenses for the high end shoots. Then again starting off in that vein using the Leica S system would accomplish that! The sensor is 60% larger than FF. Incredible system not for everyone even if it fit into most peoples budget, which it doesn't lol!
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jrista

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2012, 12:41:10 PM »

Any other competitor (for large sensors), except Sony ... which makes Full Frame, 1.5X APS-C, Micro 4/3rd, 1 inch (RX100), and several different Super35 and Super16 sensors for video. Guess who is the leader in sensor production :D ... Oh, and lets not forget the former Kodak digital sensor division (which is still active).

and that´s a part of sony that makes some money.
but not enough as it seems...


yep

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/12q1_sony.pdf

canon has to do nothing as it looks. ;)

thought... the camera biz at sony is making a profit.

In all honesty, I would put a sad face after:

canon has to do nothing as it looks.  :'(

Canon should HAVE to do SOMETHING...their sensor technology (both image and AF) is languishing and has become increasingly dated. There have been improvements, but minor evolutionary only. Canon needs a big hefty competitor to pressure them to get their ass in gear and design a better image sensor, and design an AF sensor that has solid f/8 performance.

wickidwombat

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2012, 09:04:49 PM »
i was hoping the 650D would be an indicator of fixing these issues however from looking on the internet it would appear not much has been done, i havent used one and more than likely wont bother unless someone i know buys one and i can have a quick look

maybe canon can just buy sony and integrate the sensor tech :P
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canon816

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2012, 07:10:25 AM »
Well I might get attacked calling 7D's sensor 'crap', but it is the fact comparing with other brand's crop sensors. 7D is a good camera EXCEPT the sensor

What!  I can't believe you said this.  *GASP*  :o

Oh wait.... I see, you said the 7D sensor is 'crap'.... I'll share a little of the 7D user's fury on this one.... as I agree with you.  At least my 7D's sensor was crap and the only reason I sold it.  Otherwise it was a great camera... just not at anything above ISO 400.

jrista

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #81 on: August 05, 2012, 12:55:34 PM »
jrista, thanks for your insights into some of the science behind the sensor properties/issues!

Apologies if this is slightly off the original topic but I suppose it does relate to the advantages/disadvantages of APS-C and pixel density against the larger sensor formats.

Regarding comments made by jrista on the softness:

I started to feel a little bit the same way after I had my 7D for a short while. The thing I've learned, as I've continued to use it, is that the 7D, with a far higher pixel density than most other cameras (particularly full frame cameras), is very succeptible to softening by optical aberrations (in other words, its a hell of a lot more demanding on lenses). Where a 5D II/1D III might be fine with a lens wide open, the same lens used on the 7D at the same aperture would appear somewhat soft...and one thing the 7D does NOT do well is control noise in areas of smoother detail (particularly bokeh, but softness from optical aberrations heightens the effect of noise in detail areas as well.)

I recently learned that stopping down just about all of my lenses just a bit results in far sharper photos, and noise in the areas where it matters...the key subject(s) and the detail within them, appears far less noisy. I will grant that the 7D seems to drop the ball a bit on lower-luminance smooth detail...particularly out of focus backgrounds...bokeh tends to exhibit noise fairly badly when other cameras do not at higher ISO. Not really sure why...perhaps the smaller pixel pitch and surface area heighten the effects of photon shot noise...either way, its an area where improved Q.E. and better SNR in a 7D II could really improve things.

It is interesting to hear your thoughts regarding the affect of optical aberrations on the detail and noise in an image. I have a 7D and use it for landscapes quite a bit and have noticed, particularly with the EF-S 10-22 lens that it does struggle with resolving detail towards the corners. Now I realise that the high pixel density sensor of the 7D will likely show up any failings of the lens, and that with an UWA lens some corner softness is to be expected, and coupled with CA and possibly field curvature as well...... I usually shoot af F/8 but still struggle to get corner to corner sharpness... at high magnification anyway. Fine detail certainly seems to become 'smeared' towards the corners though not consistently, particularly at infinity focus. Maybe that is partly down to focusing and the distance of subjects from the camera, and maybe even my technique. I have also noticed some noise at low ISO in blue/dark sky areas.

None of which takes away from the fact that I think the 7 is a great camera, and certainly not worthy of the 'piece of crap sensor' comments dished out. If I could afford a 5D I would probably go for it but not everybody has that kind of money to blow on a hobby.

The issues you are running into are probably more the lens design than anything. For one, regardless of the quality, a 10mm lens is REALLY WIDE. Thats the same as the 16-35mm L II on a FF...16mm is REALLY WIDE. Rectilinear lenses bend light more and more as you approach the corners in an effort to "fit a spherical world into a rectangular planar world." The wider you get, the more extreme that bending has to be, and the closer you get to the corners of the lens, the more pronounced "stretching" and "smearing" your going to experience. Not much you can really do about that, its more a matter of physics than anything. On top of the physical matters, the EF-s 10-22mm, while it is a great lens, is not an L-series lens. Its designed as a high quality consumer grade lens, but not a professional lens. The EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II, while its essentially the same FoV on a FF camera, is a better designed lens. It certainly has its fair share of distortion, however that distortion is better managed and controlled, and the softening effects as you approach the corners are lesser than with the 10-22. The 7D is probably enhancing this undesirable aspect of these two lenses, however there is more going on than just pixel density.

In your case, I would shoot at a smaller aperture. People are very afraid of "diffraction", however diffraction is only actually a problem once the airy pattern is more than twice the size of a single pixel (or, the airy disc, the central bright spot, is larger than a single pixel.) The 7D is diffraction limited at f/6.9. You could stop down to f/14 before you really start to experience visible softening due to diffraction. I would say an f/11 aperture would be ideal for landscapes, assuming you were using a strong, stable tripod, and would help improve the softness in the corners. You could probably stop right down to f/16 if you really wanted to increase DOF, and you would only experience minor diffraction softening. The key thing is that the softening from diffraction is less than the softening from defocus. You might experience diffraction softening that was stronger than defocus issues at f/16, but its a tradeoff range. I have quite a few f/22 landscape shots taken with my Canon 450D, which has a larger pixel pitch allowing for about 1/2 stop tighter apertures. Even printed out quite large (I think the largest I've printed...on canvas...is 40x30), the effects of diffraction are more desirable than a soft ridgeline or OOF near-depth trees and flora. I think f/16 was the ideal landscape aperture on the 450D, and I would say f/11-f/14 is the ideal range on the 7D (if there is no wind, your using mirror lockup/liveview, and a cable release, you could probably get superbly short, deep DOF f/14 shots without issue.)

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #81 on: August 05, 2012, 12:55:34 PM »

jrista

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #82 on: August 05, 2012, 01:02:11 PM »
Well I might get attacked calling 7D's sensor 'crap', but it is the fact comparing with other brand's crop sensors. 7D is a good camera EXCEPT the sensor, if you only have 7D you might not realize, but take a look at other sensors, it will be very obvious that the Canon's 18MP APS-C sensor is bad, very noisy, low DR, bad colors, you name it.

I think there is no need to go to any larger format for 7D, because:
1. There are some quality EF-s lenses, like 10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro, also as a back up body, 'you gain reach' sort of stuff.
2. Crop sensor can be made better, it's just Canon can't do it right now. Look at D3200, THAT is a good APS-C sensor.

If only 7D II can at least match D3200's sensor performance, I will be happy.

7D users try to defend your gear? Come on, if the only thing you want to do on the forum is to promote your gear, there is no need to discuss.

In the grand scheme of current-generation, modern sensors, I would say the Canon 18mp APS-C is on the bottom rung, for sure. But we are incredibly spoiled these days as well. The IQ of the Canon 7D is still stellar compared to what we had less than a decade ago, and outside of a few specialty films with ungodly grain and color characteristics, the 7D is vastly superior to film as well. Once you hit ISO 3200, the 7D really kind of falls off a cliff, and its ISO 100 performance is lackluster due to that nasty pattern noise Canon just can't seem to get rid of. But in general, the 7D's 18mp APS-C is most assuredly a USABLE sensor for the kinds of things it was meant for...action.

I wouldn't call it a crap sensor...its just not the cream-of-the-crop sensor. The technological problems with Canon sensors are also not that unique. Most medium format sensors, the bulk of P&S and Mirrorless sensors, all experience color noise and a variety of forms of electronic noise. This was particularly evident in one of the MF vs. D800 videos I watched that was linked on this site a couple months ago...the D800 did well against the MF, although the MF still ultimately won out. But when they started pushing shadows, the MF (a Hassy 40mp, IIRC) quickly started exhibiting the same kind of unsightly, unwanted FPN, banding, and even a little color noise that Canon sensors do.

The 7D sensor, nor any other Canon sensor, is "crap". The fact of the matter is Sony and Nikon found a competitive edge, and right now they are slashing and burning their way to the top with it. Thats entirely to be expected in a competitive marketplace, and it doesn't mean the competition is crap...the competition is the same as it was before the SoNikon breakthrough. Its just that the upper bar has ratcheted up a few notches, and now the previous cream of the crop is no longer cream.

AprilForever

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #83 on: August 05, 2012, 11:50:25 PM »
If Canon nixes Flagship APS-C, Nikon, Sony, or even Pentax will gladly eat the empty market. Case closed.
What is truth?

Bosman

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2012, 08:02:30 PM »
If Canon nixes Flagship APS-C, Nikon, Sony, or even Pentax will gladly eat the empty market. Case closed.
Post closed thanks to AprilForever :D 
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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2012, 08:02:30 PM »