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Author Topic: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H  (Read 20082 times)

bdunbar79

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2012, 09:49:52 PM »
You are a wedding photographer. If you feel strongly about APS-H, then explain how it would be superior for your profession to the 5DIII which Canon targeted specifically to wedding photographers (among others). If you can build a compelling case as to why APS-H would give you something you can't get and need with the 5DIII, then that would add to the conversation.

An APS-H body is a great complementary body to shoot with full frame
I would much rather shoot a 16-35 f2.8L II on an APS-H body (20mm to 46mm) than the current 24-70 on full frame coupled with a full frame body and 85 f1.4 you can shoot pretty much everything
I cant wait to see the new 24-70 to see if it can make this reason for using APS-H at weddings redundant
even though sometimes i find the 24mm wide end a little tight however now I have the 20mm voigtlander pancake this can be quite easily solved for those select shots where I want to go to 20mm

IMO I would not pay someone to shoot my wedding with an APS-C camera

My 1D Mark IV is fantastic at outdoor track and field.  I can take a 300mm lens and put it on and get 390mm.  Too far?  Unscrew the camera and slap on a 5D Mark III.  It's great.
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Rocky

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2012, 12:25:29 AM »
If Canon can build a "Entry level FF" for $2000. Canon can build a "APS-H entry level" cheaper than $2000 and smaller. Building APS-H does not mean to abandon the EF_S lenses, as long as APS-H co-exists with APS-C.  Just like the FF co-exist with APS-C now. Did any body complain about FF is abandoning EF-S lenses???

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2012, 02:01:43 PM »
I apologize if i don't feel the need to pander to Mr Unfocussed's requests for more specific detailed reasons why i feel this is a logical move. However, i will say this. I have been shooting aps-h and FF since 2007. My 24 lives on the 1dm3 and the 50L lives on the 5dm3. I will switch them back and forth at times. I posted and many agree with me and some disagree, However a dissertation for a person who slaps me at every pass is not of interest to me.
Put an APS-h on a 7dm2 and many will buy the increased resolution as well as newest sensor tech, myself included. No need for a 1dx with that setup.
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briansquibb

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2012, 02:36:40 PM »
I apologize if i don't feel the need to pander to Mr Unfocussed's requests for more specific detailed reasons why i feel this is a logical move. However, i will say this. I have been shooting aps-h and FF since 2007. My 24 lives on the 1dm3 and the 50L lives on the 5dm3. I will switch them back and forth at times. I posted and many agree with me and some disagree, However a dissertation for a person who slaps me at every pass is not of interest to me.
Put an APS-h on a 7dm2 and many will buy the increased resolution as well as newest sensor tech, myself included. No need for a 1dx with that setup.

I read the original post as suggesting APS-H to go alongside FF not dump APS-C

I think Bosman is correct, 1.3 crop + f/8 + high mps would knock the others for six.

After all the others are using either a 1.5 crop or ff - to get a 1.3 crop with ff IQ has to be a winner

jrista

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2012, 03:13:54 PM »
The next 7D with an aps-h sensor like the 1dm4 would kill! I'd buy it. Sensor size has always been one of the largest points of any camera. Bigger sensored cameras have more photo-site space and with gapless lens technology on the 1DX and 5DM3 its a big win over the Nikons non-D series sports cameras. Its also a win over Sony and others that are 1.5 or 1.6 crop. This would separate the 7d from the two digit series cameras like the 60d. It would kind of take the old helm of the sports camera but in the middle spot the 1dm2/3/4 held.

Agreed. It would rape aps-c. Now if canon could retro-fit EF-S to aps-h... ::)

I've never understood this sentiment. There are distinct reasons to choose a given sensor form factor. In the case of APS-C and the 7D, I EXPLICITLY chose it because it was APS-C, which offers a 1.62x crop factor. That offers the benefit of additional reach, when comparing on a megapixel-normal basis (i.e. all 18mp sensors for any given format, the smaller the sensor the greater the reach.) I think FF, APS-H, and APS-C all have their place, and I do not believe Canon is "killing off" APS-H based on their own words. APS-H offers a nice balance between larger sensor area and therefor thinner DOF, without completely eliminating the crop factor and therefor reach benefit.

I'd love to have an APS-H option again from Canon, however I do not believe that the next 7D will be it...that would affect too many owners who already have EF-S lenses...it would be a more stupid move on Canon's part to break the 7D line by introducing a new sensor type. I could see either a new type of 1D X that uses an APS-H, although given the effort Canon went through to merge the previous 1D/1Ds lines, I imagine a new line would come out...9D? 5Ds? I believe 3 and 4 have superstitious connotations in Japan, so maybe we'll get a 6D out of the mix. Either way...I highly doubt that the 7D's form factor will change, ever...APS-C has a lot of value for those of us who need additional reach...and I would be extremely dismayed if it was changed to APS-H with the next version.

If I had to pick one single thing that would make me buy a 7D II the day it came out was a sensor with better high-ISO DR and greater SNR. I'm not as concerned about low-ISO DR for this type of camera...its geared for action shooting, which generally necessitates higher ISO settings unless you have unbelievably fantastic light. The nasty thing about the 7D is its noise...in two respects. One, noise in background blur areas can be really atrocious...even in the high midtones and low highlights, you still get a lot of noise (which is curious and confusing...shouldn't be that way). Second, fixed pattern noise shows through on a fairly frequent basis, often right up through the midtones. I can take noise in general, but the quality of Canon's noise has gotten pretty bad recently...or perhaps not improved at all over previous sensor designs. Both Nikon-made and Sony-made sensors have offered a better quality of noise than Canon for some time, and I think that could be the single greatest area for improvement in the 7D that Canon can make.

Reduce noise, and make what noise there is more pleasing, and keep the APS-C...do that, and I'm already a 7D II customer. Add f/8 AF in an APS-C body, and Canon will keep me as a customer for life.
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aznable

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2012, 03:25:54 PM »
The next 7D with an aps-h sensor like the 1dm4 would kill! I'd buy it. Sensor size has always been one of the largest points of any camera. Bigger sensored cameras have more photo-site space and with gapless lens technology on the 1DX and 5DM3 its a big win over the Nikons non-D series sports cameras. Its also a win over Sony and others that are 1.5 or 1.6 crop. This would separate the 7d from the two digit series cameras like the 60d. It would kind of take the old helm of the sports camera but in the middle spot the 1dm2/3/4 held.

so the next 7d mk2 specs

10 fps dual digic 5
aps-h sensor 22 mpix
autofocus from 1dx/5dmk3 improved (focusing with f/8 lenses)
sealed body
price around 2000 usd/1700 eur

pratically a camera better than 1d mark 4 at a fraction of the price...bvery unlikely
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dtaylor

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2012, 05:48:11 PM »
What is with the APS-H lust?

* It doesn't work with crop lenses but doesn't match FF lenses (i.e. limited WA options).

* In bright light it's "short" relative to crop bodies for sports.

* In dim light the sensor is noisy relative to FF bodies.

Know what I want to see? A Canon work around or license for the Sony patent that is killing them on noise/DR. Sony sensors convert the analog signal sooner which is why you can push shadow detail so hard. I would much rather see a 7D mkII that's APS-C but with early signal conversion than a 7D mkII that's APS-H.

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2012, 06:07:41 PM »
Make it a 6d then. :D
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briansquibb

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2012, 10:24:23 PM »
What is with the APS-H lust?

* It doesn't work with crop lenses but doesn't match FF lenses (i.e. limited WA options).

* In bright light it's "short" relative to crop bodies for sports.

* In dim light the sensor is noisy relative to FF bodies.

Know what I want to see? A Canon work around or license for the Sony patent that is killing them on noise/DR. Sony sensors convert the analog signal sooner which is why you can push shadow detail so hard. I would much rather see a 7D mkII that's APS-C but with early signal conversion than a 7D mkII that's APS-H.

I guess you just have to compare the pro sports usage of the 7D vs the 1D4 to understand what is being said here.

I have both the 7D and the 1D4 - the 7D just does not compete.

For every improvement that is made to APS-C can be reflected in the APS-H and the APS-H will always be better.

The 1D4 is not designed as a low light camera - but is happy to iso6400 - well beyond APS-C. With the 1.3 crop more of the lens is in the sweet spot so the lens perform better than on a ff.

The 1D4 is not designed as a landscape body - so to say that it doesn't do uwa is a red herring - it delivers the longest reach of all Canon bodies - so what you lose(duh!) at the uwa you more than gain at the long end.

I can only assume that the APS-C supporters have not had the pleasure of using a 1D3/4.

unfocused

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2012, 11:19:30 PM »
I guess you just have to compare the pro sports usage of the 7D vs the 1D4 to understand what is being said here.

I have both the 7D and the 1D4 - the 7D just does not compete.

For every improvement that is made to APS-C can be reflected in the APS-H and the APS-H will always be better.

The 1D4 is not designed as a low light camera - but is happy to iso6400 - well beyond APS-C. With the 1.3 crop more of the lens is in the sweet spot so the lens perform better than on a ff.

The 1D4 is not designed as a landscape body - so to say that it doesn't do uwa is a red herring - it delivers the longest reach of all Canon bodies - so what you lose(duh!) at the uwa you more than gain at the long end.

I can only assume that the APS-C supporters have not had the pleasure of using a 1D3/4.

I don't know why I do this to myself. But, here we go again.

Brian, as you know, I have never disputed the quality of the 1D4. My issue has always been with the economic viability of the format. Or perhaps more accurately, with what I perceive to be Canon's view of the continued economic viability of the camera.

I cannot find any indication from Canon that they intend to retain the format in their stills DSLRs. They have, in contrast, taken actions and made statements that lead myself and many others to believe that they have dropped the format.

My problem with this particular thread was that the OP titled the thread and wrote an initial post that made a very bold claim. A claim that lacked any supporting evidence. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is certainly no law against starting new threads that rehash the same topic over and over again. This forum has plenty of them.

But, this is a discussion forum and having made a bold statement, it seemed logical to me that the OP would expect others to challenge his claim. Why start a discussion thread if you don't want to discuss the topic?

Mt Spokane quickly and effectively responded. I seconded that opinion. And, yes I was a bit of a smart ass about it. Feeling a bit badly about that, I decided to expand upon my opinion and challenged the OP to defend his position using some real world examples from his own profession as a wedding photographer (and from his website, he appears to be quite good at his craft).

The challenge was met with a snide post. Okay. Fair enough.

Brian, you know I have great respect for the work you do. I have defended your work when others attacked it. I also appreciate Wicked's comments and sense of humor about this whole debate. He adds a nice perspective and does it without being offensive.

If quality alone were the criteria, the APS-H format might be around forever. Unfortunately, companies have to turn a profit and it appears Canon has determined that the APS-H format doesn't currently fit into its business plan. They know their business better than any of us. So, if we are going to dispute their analysis, shouldn't we do so on some basis other than just making unsubstantiated statements?

The title of this thread is: "If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and go APS-H"

All I am suggesting is that no one has offered the slightest defense of the original premise. 

Now, I realize this isn't your thread so you don't have to defend it. In fact, I give you and Wicked credit, the two of you have always pretty much argued the superiority of the quality of APS-H, without pretending to know the profitability or lack thereof for the format.

So, I ask just this: somebody make a business case for APS-H, because I haven't heard a valid one yet.
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briansquibb

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2012, 11:37:03 PM »
Strangely enough I am a ff fan - I have 3 ff bodies with a 1DX on the way. I also have 4 APS-C bodies too.

However my comment is really about the way that APS-H is being dismissed in favour of APS-C. I have read the Canon comments and the way they have been written definitely dont write off APS-H - rather that the 1D4 line is now ff.

If they can move the well established range 1 series (which has been around longer than APS-C) from APS-H to ff at a drop of a hat then there is no reason why they couldn't re-intoduce it

The business case is easy to understand - the 5DIII   is currently about £2800 in the UK whereas the 1D4 was about £3400 at the same time. Now by putting the APS-H in a 5DIII body then the price would be no more than the 5DIII (all the other costs would be the same except that the sensor would be cheaper).

I wouldn't advocate the dumping of APS-C - however it is clear that the future of APS-C is in the smaller cameras, which means that there would be no requirement to develop APS-C to extreme levels. Even a move to APS-C+ (1.5 crop like Nikon) would give a big improvement in performance.

The 1D4 gives very good IQ plus the 1.3 crop and 10fps with good low light performance to iso6400- this is what makes it still a highly desirable body. There is still nothing on the market (including the 1DX) which can match the sports/wildlife all round package.





« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:45:33 PM by briansquibb »

funkboy

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2012, 04:31:50 AM »
Sorry to rain on everyone's APS-H parade, but in all likelyhood Canon's fabs used to make these sensors have been repurposed to make Super35-sized sensors for the Cinema EOS line (they're very close to the same size).  Put another way, future APS-H(ish) sized sensors will only be in cameras with a red "C" on the front.

As Neuro said, they can make FF sensors in one pass now & churn them out in sufficient volume to be competitive.  Why would they mess with a smaller niche format viewed as inferior to full-frame by everyone except Canon fans?  The 1DIV was inevitably compared to the D3S & D700...

 I'm not trying to preach a preference one way or the other (there are technical merits for both, & personally I'd love a small APS-H body), but now that the 1DX & 5D have shown that the technical reasons for APS-H to exist have been surmounted, the realities of marketing & manufacturing dictate that Canon has decided that two DSLR sensor sizes is enough.

& if you think about it, they have four large sensor sizes in production at the moment:

  • FF
  • APS-C
  • Super35
  • the G1X sensor

That's already two more than any competitor...
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 04:56:55 AM by funkboy »

kapanak

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2012, 05:05:18 AM »
if you think about it, they have four large sensor sizes in production at the moment:

  • FF
  • APS-C
  • Super35
  • the G1X sensor

That's already two more than any competitor...

Any other competitor (for large sensors), except Sony ... which makes Full Frame, 1.5X APS-C, Micro 4/3rd, 1 inch (RX100), and several different Super35 and Super16 sensors for video. Guess who is the leader in sensor production :D ... Oh, and lets not forget the former Kodak digital sensor division (which is still active).

Gothmoth

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2012, 07:33:22 AM »

Any other competitor (for large sensors), except Sony ... which makes Full Frame, 1.5X APS-C, Micro 4/3rd, 1 inch (RX100), and several different Super35 and Super16 sensors for video. Guess who is the leader in sensor production :D ... Oh, and lets not forget the former Kodak digital sensor division (which is still active).

and that´s a part of sony that makes some money.
but not enough as it seems...

dtaylor

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2012, 08:24:06 AM »

I guess you just have to compare the pro sports usage of the 7D vs the 1D4 to understand what is being said here.

Looking at just the sensor, the 1D4 is a "short" 7D. Sorry, that's how I see it. (And even looking at everything the 7D is 90% of the capability for a fraction of the price.) The question everybody asked when comparing the 1D4 to Nikon's offerings was why isn't it full frame? Canon got the hint.

If you're going to crop the sensor from FF to gain reach, might as well go 1.6x.

Quote
I have both the 7D and the 1D4 - the 7D just does not compete.

Yes it does. The 1D4 gets about one more stop in low light.

Quote
The 1D4 is not designed as a landscape body - so to say that it doesn't do uwa is a red herring - it delivers the longest reach of all Canon bodies

Except for all the 1.6x bodies which have more reach.

Quote
I can only assume that the APS-C supporters have not had the pleasure of using a 1D3/4.

I have, and I would actually pick up a 7D over a 1D3 for most tasks.

APS-H has no place in the market. The closest option will be cinema cameras with Super35. Canon's 1 series sports body will be FF to compete with the Nikon Dx series. If Canon continues the 7D line (I certainly hope they do, it has been a best seller) it will continue to be a pro level APS-C. And if Canon could just work around that stupid patent it would probably have better low light performance than a 1D4.