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Author Topic: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H  (Read 20927 times)

briansquibb

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2012, 08:41:36 AM »

I guess you just have to compare the pro sports usage of the 7D vs the 1D4 to understand what is being said here.

Looking at just the sensor, the 1D4 is a "short" 7D. Sorry, that's how I see it. (And even looking at everything the 7D is 90% of the capability for a fraction of the price.) The question everybody asked when comparing the 1D4 to Nikon's offerings was why isn't it full frame? Canon got the hint.

If you're going to crop the sensor from FF to gain reach, might as well go 1.6x.

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I have both the 7D and the 1D4 - the 7D just does not compete.

Yes it does. The 1D4 gets about one more stop in low light.

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The 1D4 is not designed as a landscape body - so to say that it doesn't do uwa is a red herring - it delivers the longest reach of all Canon bodies

Except for all the 1.6x bodies which have more reach.

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I can only assume that the APS-C supporters have not had the pleasure of using a 1D3/4.

I have, and I would actually pick up a 7D over a 1D3 for most tasks.

APS-H has no place in the market. The closest option will be cinema cameras with Super35. Canon's 1 series sports body will be FF to compete with the Nikon Dx series. If Canon continues the 7D line (I certainly hope they do, it has been a best seller) it will continue to be a pro level APS-C. And if Canon could just work around that stupid patent it would probably have better low light performance than a 1D4.

No APS-C has AF at f/8 which the 1D4 does

So 600 * 1.6 *1.4 for the 7D = 1344mm
Whereas 600 *1.3 * 2 for the 1D4 = 1560mm

So the 1D4 has the longest reach

From experience the 1D4 has 2 stops of usable iso - 1600 for the 7D, 6400 for the 1D4

The IQ of a cropped 7D picture soon gets ugly, whereas it doesn't on the 1D4

I could never consider the 7D as a pro camera, just a good hobbyists camera.

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2012, 08:41:36 AM »

match14

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2012, 10:22:12 AM »
The next 7D with an aps-h sensor like the 1dm4 would kill! I'd buy it. Sensor size has always been one of the largest points of any camera. Bigger sensored cameras have more photo-site space and with gapless lens technology on the 1DX and 5DM3 its a big win over the Nikons non-D series sports cameras. Its also a win over Sony and others that are 1.5 or 1.6 crop. This would separate the 7d from the two digit series cameras like the 60d. It would kind of take the old helm of the sports camera but in the middle spot the 1dm2/3/4 held.

Whats the point to buying a 7D Mark II with an APS-H sensor when you can already buy a 7D with a full frame sensor?

Thats right you can currently buy a 7D with a 22MP full frame sensor it's called the 5D Mark III.

A 7D Mark II with an APS-H sensor is not going to be much cheaper that the current 5D Mark III IMHO.

Meh

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2012, 10:27:44 AM »
No APS-C has AF at f/8 which the 1D4 does

So 600 * 1.6 *1.4 for the 7D = 1344mm
Whereas 600 *1.3 * 2 for the 1D4 = 1560mm

So the 1D4 has the longest reach

From experience the 1D4 has 2 stops of usable iso - 1600 for the 7D, 6400 for the 1D4

The IQ of a cropped 7D picture soon gets ugly, whereas it doesn't on the 1D4

I could never consider the 7D as a pro camera, just a good hobbyists camera.

Do you not have to account for the 18MP vs. 16MP in your reach calculation?   So multiplying 1344mm x 18/16 gives 1512mm which is still less but much closer.  However, you're using a 2X TC vs. a 1.4X TC... any IQ difference there?

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2012, 10:40:51 AM »
The next 7D with an aps-h sensor like the 1dm4 would kill! I'd buy it. Sensor size has always been one of the largest points of any camera. Bigger sensored cameras have more photo-site space and with gapless lens technology on the 1DX and 5DM3 its a big win over the Nikons non-D series sports cameras. Its also a win over Sony and others that are 1.5 or 1.6 crop. This would separate the 7d from the two digit series cameras like the 60d. It would kind of take the old helm of the sports camera but in the middle spot the 1dm2/3/4 held.

Whats the point to buying a 7D Mark II with an APS-H sensor when you can already buy a 7D with a full frame sensor?

Pixel density

match14

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2012, 10:43:54 AM »
Put an APS-h on a 7dm2 and many will buy the increased resolution as well as newest sensor tech, myself included. No need for a 1dx with that setup.

Thats another reason why Canon won't put APS-H in 7D Mark II, they will not kill off the 1DX flagship from within their own product line up.

match14

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2012, 10:58:05 AM »
The next 7D with an aps-h sensor like the 1dm4 would kill! I'd buy it. Sensor size has always been one of the largest points of any camera. Bigger sensored cameras have more photo-site space and with gapless lens technology on the 1DX and 5DM3 its a big win over the Nikons non-D series sports cameras. Its also a win over Sony and others that are 1.5 or 1.6 crop. This would separate the 7d from the two digit series cameras like the 60d. It would kind of take the old helm of the sports camera but in the middle spot the 1dm2/3/4 held.

Whats the point to buying a 7D Mark II with an APS-H sensor when you can already buy a 7D with a full frame sensor?

Pixel density

True but the point I was getting at is Bosman is saying replace APS-C with APS-H because a bigger sensor is better and he is right, therefore Fullframe is better than APS-H because it is bigger.  I think the real problem here is that Canon should have put 36MP into the 5D Mark III then you would have the best of both, fullframe sensor with the ability to crop to APS-H or APS-C in post without the loss of pixel density.

briansquibb

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2012, 11:05:59 AM »
True but the point I was getting at is Bosman is saying replace APS-C with APS-H because a bigger sensor is better and he is right, therefore Fullframe is better than APS-H because it is bigger.  I think the real problem here is that Canon should have put 36MP into the 5D Mark III then you would have the best of both, fullframe sensor with the ability to crop to APS-H or APS-C in post without the loss of pixel density.

A 7dII with a ff sensor would be a 5DIII

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2012, 11:05:59 AM »

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2012, 11:10:15 AM »
True but the point I was getting at is Bosman is saying replace APS-C with APS-H because a bigger sensor is better and he is right, therefore Fullframe is better than APS-H because it is bigger.  I think the real problem here is that Canon should have put 36MP into the 5D Mark III then you would have the best of both, fullframe sensor with the ability to crop to APS-H or APS-C in post without the loss of pixel density.

A 7dII with a ff sensor would be a 5DIII

Except your're missing a boatload of features and improvements.  So, not really Brian.  If you say that, then you're simply saying all else is equal between the 7D and 5D3 except the sensor.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.
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briansquibb

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2012, 11:13:41 AM »
True but the point I was getting at is Bosman is saying replace APS-C with APS-H because a bigger sensor is better and he is right, therefore Fullframe is better than APS-H because it is bigger.  I think the real problem here is that Canon should have put 36MP into the 5D Mark III then you would have the best of both, fullframe sensor with the ability to crop to APS-H or APS-C in post without the loss of pixel density.

A 7dII with a ff sensor would be a 5DIII

Except your're missing a boatload of features and improvements.  So, not really Brian.  If you say that, then you're simply saying all else is equal between the 7D and 5D3 except the sensor.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Note I said 7DII not 7D  ;D

bdunbar79

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2012, 11:26:02 AM »
How about a 1Ds3 with the ISO capabilities?  :)
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match14

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2012, 11:32:50 AM »
True but the point I was getting at is Bosman is saying replace APS-C with APS-H because a bigger sensor is better and he is right, therefore Fullframe is better than APS-H because it is bigger.  I think the real problem here is that Canon should have put 36MP into the 5D Mark III then you would have the best of both, fullframe sensor with the ability to crop to APS-H or APS-C in post without the loss of pixel density.

A 7dII with a ff sensor would be a 5DIII

Yeah I already said that further up in reply #31
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=8057.msg152769#msg152769
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 11:34:49 AM by match14 »

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2012, 01:17:36 PM »
I have a simple solution for the OPs problem. Carry two 5D MKIII and tack on a 1.4X converter onto one for the extra reach. You'll get slightly more reach than the APS-H's 1.3X and a better sensor. As far as losing the one stop of light, you'd roughly lose that anyway with the slightly worse ISO performance of an APS-H. That way you'll have consistency between the two bodies and Canon won't have to develop a camera for such a niche market.
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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2012, 01:58:49 PM »
I shoot sports too. A sports body like the 7d with a better sensor than what you can squeak out of an aps-c, plus the frame rate is a perfect matchup for what i do. The 7d sensor is seriously lacking but the focus system is tops. Some people don't understand dreamers, dreamers come up with ideas that may not fit but when something is done with those ideas companies like Apple become successful. I am not here to give stats, show evidence or make a case. For the reasons i have stated these are my dreams. I really am ok with people having their differing views. I encourage the discussion, but no one is going to demand or make me prove my idea lol. Who does that? I just don't appreciate that because i throw an idea or a concept out there that i need to prove its a good idea, i mean really, that doesn't encourage great discussion...
I realize the aps-h is probably done but i will say if it were my decision i'd either upgrade the 7d with better sensor tech beyond the limits of aps-c, possibly even FF or create a new camera model. If people say its a 1dx killer then its probably the perfect idea because we all know thru history with Canon and Nikon that there is plenty of market for both to exist no matter what people are saying about one killing the other. Every d series body should have a smaller cousin that has a few less features and are built well but obviously not a d series level of build i mean my camera has fallen to the concrete a few times thanks to my R Strap malfunctioning (by the way i don't use the Rapid strap anymore its all about the spiderpro holster) and i pick it up and it just works. I have shot in in rain for hours with my 1dm3 and the only issue really was a foggy eye piece. The D series gets the heavy duty parts for extreme environments. Canon knows what people buy and why. A person won't buy a 1d series unless they want it or their jobs require it be able to handle extreme environments. Everyone on a budget or just wants to work with lighter gear will buy the smaller alternatives. Now that they merged the lines there has to be a viable alternative to the 1dx. The 5dm3 doesn't have the frame rate required for that in my opinion, the 7d does its just that it is lacking sensor capability.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 02:18:12 PM by Bosman »
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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2012, 01:58:49 PM »

pdirestajr

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2012, 02:06:12 PM »
Hey if we are gonna dream, how about we make that sensor square too?! Then we are really cooking :D

I'll buy that.
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Bosman

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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2012, 02:13:23 PM »
Hey if we are gonna dream, how about we make that sensor square too?! Then we are really cooking :D

I'll buy that.
I like that idea as well. I would want it to frame like a normal camera in camera but on the computer the area that wasn't in the view finder is greyed out like what you see in photoshop or LR when you are cropping. That way your composition is what you see in camera but the file is recording the whole square allowing for diff crops to be made if so desired. Or you could just choose in camera what crop shape you want and have a square viewfinder allowing you to see everything but the greyed out area that you didn't choose to be in the composition.
I know i have taken photos where if only i could have gotten a little more in there you would see more of the story of the picture. I am curious how the lens situation would work. I would suppose you need to buy specialty lenses for that type sensor if you chose the whole image to be square format. Its fun to think about.
Back to 7d with larger sensor, make it a 7dx and have a 7dm2 with aps-c for those who don't want to give that up.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 02:22:19 PM by Bosman »
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Re: If Canon wants to kill off Nikon/Sony/Pentax drop APS-C and Go APS-H
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2012, 02:13:23 PM »