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Author Topic: first pic of canon mirrorless?  (Read 51072 times)

AvTvM

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #255 on: July 21, 2012, 08:45:25 PM »
@AvTvM
I don't have low aspirations.  Just I already have great cameras. The Mirrorless EOS is only adding to my party.

Somewhat different take here. I am an amateur. I only have a 7D which I like a lot. Plus a Powershot S-95 as "smaller, go everywhere/family cam".  Unfortunately I hate the S-95 in almost every aspect, although I know, it is still one of the better compact cams on the market. I do not like to use a LCD-only cam in stretched-out hands.   
On the other hand, the 7D (plus lens) is not huge, but still too bulky in many situations. Currently I mostly use the 7D unless size is a real problem, if it is, I take the iPhone ... rather than the S-95.  And I never take videos (except occasionally casual 5sec-clips with the iphone) and will never do so. Stills only for me.

So I am keenly interested in a hi-end compact FF-cam that matches or beats a DSLR like the 5D3 in every way [except OVF] and has additional benefits of a mirrorless cam [no noise, no vibration] on top. At a price not higher than a 5D3. I would use it to complement my 7D and possibly even replace it.

Much less desirable to me would be a compact APS-C mirrorless with a max. 7D-ish price tag. If it  matches or beats (in terms of IQ and control) my 7D, I might buy it as second body or even as replacement. It still needs to have a TTL viewfinder.

I am totally uninterested in a consumer-mirrorless and/or in a sensor smaller than APS-C and/or with 4:3 or 16:9 native sensor format and/or with insufficient responsiveness/controls/ergonomics.



* sizewise: I know, the Minolta CLE was a rangefinder cam. But at 124.5 x 77.5 x 32 mm it is significantly smaller  than a Leica M9 [139 x 80 x 37 mm]. And a lot lighter at 380g (CLE) vs. 600g (M9P). And still a FF camera. And compatible with most M-mount lenses from any maker. That's why I keep using it as a reference point. Because some people mistakenly believe, a FF mirrorless would have to be "bigger / too big".
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 08:53:02 PM by AvTvM »

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #255 on: July 21, 2012, 08:45:25 PM »

paul13walnut5

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #256 on: July 21, 2012, 08:57:17 PM »
Quote
So I am keenly interested in a hi-end compact FF-cam that matches or beats a DSLR like the 5D3 in every way [except OVF] and has additional benefits of a mirrorless cam [no noise, no vibration] on top. At a price not higher than a 5D3. I would use it to complement my 7D and possibly even replace it.

Why then haven't you got a 5D3?  You want full frame?  You want 5D3 performance?  And yet you presently settle for a scabby auld 7D (as do I)

Quote
* sizewise: I know, the Minolta CLE was a rangefinder cam. But at 124.5 x 77.5 x 32 mm it is significantly smaller  than a Leica M9 [139 x 80 x 37 mm]. And a lot lighter at 380g (CLE) vs. 600g (M9P). And still a FF camera. And compatible with most M-mount lenses from any maker. That's why I keep using it as a reference point. Because some people mistakenly believe, a FF mirrorless would have to be "bigger / too big".

I Never compared the CLE to an M9.  I compared it to an M6.
The CLE had many caveats to compatability and was best used within the 28-90 range, not exclusively with the minolta lenses, but certainly within that range. Purely for the brightscreen etchings. The CLE was different from the CL in that it wasn't so much a colaboration as a competitor.

Try using any rangefinder with anything below a 28mm and above a 135mm.  Not quite so appealing.

It can be done.  Just it can be done better without an M mount.

AvTvM

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #257 on: July 21, 2012, 08:58:55 PM »
I'm certainly with you on that. Not so sure about the M mount, but the rest of the specs are dead on to what I would also like to see from a large optical company like Canon. Especially since they had years to evaluate the market and produce something truly fantastic. This camera is just ridiculous as an entry to an already well established market.

Exactly! It is really about time, Canon comes out with a truly innovative and absolutely amazing camera. 

It is beyond me, why they are coming last to the mirrorless market and then still with only a dumbed-down Rebel T4i/650D in a smaller box without mirror and viewfinder and even more severly limited photographic controls. That will NOT cut it. At least not with me.

DarkKnightNine

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #258 on: July 21, 2012, 09:07:03 PM »
@DarkKnightNine
Quote
There is no reason Canon (or even Nikon) can't give us a Leica M9 killer:

Other than it's not their established market segment, and that the folk who would already buy rangefinders already buy leica rangefinders.

They are as different as chalk and cheese.

I want a mirrorless that is as versatile as a DSLR.

Quote
Apple skates to where the puck is going and waits for the market to catch up (which is why they charge a premium for their products).

No. they charge a premium for unique exclusive OS and user experience.  Quite often they get it wrong.  Quite often they dumb down.  I'm an FCP user and will never be an FCPX user.   So my next NLE is Adobe Premiere.  My next platform, unless Apple GROW THE 'PUCK' UP is a PC.  If apple don't want to give me a decent FCP, or a mac that can run Production suite decently, then they become the weakest link in my chain.

Adobe are doing great things.  Flash is dead. But  Apple have smelt smart device gold.  Apple will not be relevant in production terms in 5 years.  Apple will have went from equipment for creators to equipment for consumers,
Quote
Canon skates over the lines that other players have already skated in search for the puck, yet they want to charge a premium because they simply stamped a Canon badge on retreaded tech.

USM lenses.  Best AF for last 20 years?  First affordable DSLR.  First Affordable FF?  First affordable 20MP+ camera? 

Quote
This camera is just a useless waste of time and R&D.

Nah, it will sell to loads of folk who trust canon but who aren't that into the specifics of working a camera.

It might not be what the enthusisast want. But they are a small segment already served well by the EOS range.

The PRo's wont want it. (No grip)

Lets face it.  A mirrorless camera that respects legacy users.  Olympus PEN (not OM)  Nikon 1(Not F)  Sony NEX (Not MAF) Samsung (Not K) Pentax Q (not K)   if the canon can take a fully functional EF lens, even via an adaptor then it is ahead of everybody else (Sony get close, but no cigar)


There is so much wrong with your arguments that I won't even bother to pick them a part one-by-one because we could be here all day. I will just say two things to sum it all up.

1. There are many people here (who like me) feel this camera is crap as a first entry into a market from a company like Canon so you seem to be in a minority.

2. You also seem to pick up your paychecks from Canon. Blind fanboyism has never helped any company make better products.

And I know what you're thinking....
So before we even go down that road, NO I AM NOT an Apple fanboy but at least I see them trying to innovate (even today). You keep mentioning Canon innovations of the past as a basis of your arguments. My counter-argument would be Canon "What have you done for me lately?"

Overcharge me for 5D Mark III and subsequent lens updates. Overcharge me for the C300 and C500 that are really no better that other cinema cameras of equal quality that came before them (or even after them) at more reasonable prices.

I directed multimillion dollar musicals like Cats, Lion King etc... when I audition dancers, actors, singers I don't rely on videos of past work, I want to see what they can do for me today. I suppose you live in a Canon past and shroud yourself with Canon goodness. I live in the now and tomorrow and want to see them shock and amaze me. We just have different perspectives. Let's just leave it at that. Canon of late has done very little to amaze anyone (with the exception of outrageous pricing).
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AvTvM

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #259 on: July 21, 2012, 09:15:51 PM »
Why then haven't you got a 5D3?  You want full frame?  You want 5D3 performance?  And yet you presently settle for a scabby auld 7D (as do I)
3 simple reasons: 
1. I am more often reach-limited than IQ-limited.
2. I will rather drop dead than pay even one cent more for a 5D3 than what a Nikon D800 costs.
3. Even more importantly, I am very hesitant to buy another bulky DSLR if tomorrow I might get the same goodies in a Minolta-CLE sized package.
:-)

I Never compared the CLE to an M9.  I compared it to an M6.
Yes, I saw that. But I do not care in the least for the M6 ... its just another old manual, mechanical, overpriced Leica rangefinder cam. I am only looking at digital cams, therefore the M9, which is a FF-.sensored digital cam ... albeit a very unappealing and weirdo one to me.

Try using any rangefinder with anything below a 28mm and above a 135mm.  Not quite so appealing.
This is one of many reasons why I never even considered using a rangefinder. I loathe them. Except for the compact size of the cams and many of the fixed focal lenses. :-)

It can be done.  Just it can be done better without an M mount.
the beauty of using the Leica M-mount and add the necessary wiring and chip to it to be 100% compatible with Canon's EOS/EF-lens protocol would be that we could use all/many of those wonderful M-mount lenses in addition to any wonderful AF-lenses [EF-M] Canon might eventually bring to market.  And of course even in case of an M-mount I would still have liked to see a Canon EF-to-EM adapter ["electrified extension tube, of approx. 22mm width] so we could also use all EF-lenses.   But again, using "M" will not happen. It was just an idea. I would also buy a hi-end Canon FF mirrorless meeting all my other criteria if it had any lens mount ... as long as there is an EF-adapter.   

DarkKnightNine

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #260 on: July 21, 2012, 09:18:30 PM »
Quote
So I am keenly interested in a hi-end compact FF-cam that matches or beats a DSLR like the 5D3 in every way [except OVF] and has additional benefits of a mirrorless cam [no noise, no vibration] on top. At a price not higher than a 5D3. I would use it to complement my 7D and possibly even replace it.

Why then haven't you got a 5D3?  You want full frame?  You want 5D3 performance?  And yet you presently settle for a scabby auld 7D (as do I)

Quote
* sizewise: I know, the Minolta CLE was a rangefinder cam. But at 124.5 x 77.5 x 32 mm it is significantly smaller  than a Leica M9 [139 x 80 x 37 mm]. And a lot lighter at 380g (CLE) vs. 600g (M9P). And still a FF camera. And compatible with most M-mount lenses from any maker. That's why I keep using it as a reference point. Because some people mistakenly believe, a FF mirrorless would have to be "bigger / too big".

I Never compared the CLE to an M9.  I compared it to an M6.
The CLE had many caveats to compatability and was best used within the 28-90 range, not exclusively with the minolta lenses, but certainly within that range. Purely for the brightscreen etchings. The CLE was different from the CL in that it wasn't so much a colaboration as a competitor.

Try using any rangefinder with anything below a 28mm and above a 135mm.  Not quite so appealing.

It can be done.  Just it can be done better without an M mount.

Dude are you just here to pick on anyone who doesn't like this camera?
It sure seems like it.
People wanted and expected more from Canon's entry. It's as simple as that. Don't know why you can't seem to get your thick head wrapped around that concept. Stop picking on people, you're becoming very annoying, even trollish.

Hell it doesn't even have to be Canon. In this day and age, I think it's reasonable for people to expect more bang for their buck. There is stiff competition in any market and we as consumers have a right to demand more from any company entering a market to compete for our VERY hard earned money.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 09:23:19 PM by DarkKnightNine »
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itsnotmeyouknow

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Re: Useless waste of R&D!
« Reply #261 on: July 21, 2012, 09:35:58 PM »
I hate that Canon seems to lack any innovation of late yet they want to charge high premiums for giving us something that the rest of the industry has already provided except with a Canon badge. The entire concept is insulting to us as their loyal fan base. If it weren't for the fact that I love Canon lenses, I would have moved on years ago as there definitely better bodies on the market.

I hate everything about this camera because I imagine what it could have been. There is no reason Canon (or even Nikon) can't give us a Leica M9 killer (a FF mirrorless camera, with a complete lens system) at a decent price. It may cannibalize their low end DSLR market, but their higher end models like the 5D Mark III and 1DX would still sell well. Besides the industry is moving toward mirrorless anyways so lower end DSLRs have a short life span if market indicators are so be believed.

Canon tries so hard to be like Apple (with secrecy etc...), but they are a far cry from it. Apple skates to where the puck is going and waits for the market to catch up (which is why they charge a premium for their products). Canon skates over the lines that other players have already skated in search for the puck, yet they want to charge a premium because they simply stamped a Canon badge on retreaded tech.

This camera is fugly and it looks like the specs and usability won't be anything spectacular either. I could probably get better pictures out of a 60D with a kit lens, so this camera IMO is useless. If Canon wanted to enter the mirrorless market, they should have done in a way that they could have added something to it or reinvent it. That's what Apple would have done. A FF M9 killer would have made sense. This camera is just a useless waste of time and R&D.

If Lion is anything to go by, Apple would have disabled all the useful things and added extra steps to things.  I have recently upgraded to Lion and apart from one or two things, I'm regretting it.  Apple would also have auto everything so don't imagine for a second that Apple doing it would be any better.  Apple are great at PR above all else.

If you think that Canon is going to sacrifice the lower end DSLR for high performance you are barking up the wrong tree altogether.  It's biggest market of DSLR is the low end DSLR, not the semi pro/pro models.  I think too many people are expecting way too much.  I too would love a FF mirror less with all bells and whistles.  If you put the full-size full resolution sensor in it, and use a smaller lens, then you are going to be sacrificing image quality or having to use a large lens against a small body which will be unwieldy and unbalanced. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the sensor is the G1X sensor.  A bonus if its a 18mp APS-C. I agree with those that say the G1X is overpriced - Even more so in the UK where it is £700 (about $1100).  I have to wonder where Canon are going to price these.  It has to be better than the Sony NEX 5 if it is to price it similarly. 

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Re: Useless waste of R&D!
« Reply #261 on: July 21, 2012, 09:35:58 PM »

gmrza

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #262 on: July 21, 2012, 11:02:20 PM »

Lets face it.  A mirrorless camera that respects legacy users.  Olympus PEN (not OM)  Nikon 1(Not F)  Sony NEX (Not MAF) Samsung (Not K) Pentax Q (not K)   if the canon can take a fully functional EF lens, even via an adaptor then it is ahead of everybody else (Sony get close, but no cigar)

That summarises what I'd like - I'm looking for something compact, that can act as a second body to a 5DII/III or 7D, and also is an option for traveling light, which I can mount on a gorillapod.  My wishlist is: manual mode, RAW, connection for cable release, EF/EF-S adapter, compatibility with E-TTL II Speedlites.  A GPS would be a nice-to-have feature.  The lack of external controls is a little bit of a concern, but I can probably live with that - given that this camera would always play second fiddle to a DSLR.  I'm still in two minds about the apparent lack of an optional EVF.

I have come to terms with the fact that the sensor will be no better than what the current crop of APS-C Canons can offer.  I think Canon is holding back its new sensor technology.
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mjbehnke

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #263 on: July 21, 2012, 11:47:15 PM »
I do see one thing I like about the lens that I wish Canon would do to all the lenses...... Did you notice the Lens cap? Has the squeeze grips like Tamron. :)
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kapanak

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #264 on: July 22, 2012, 12:43:17 AM »
Lets face it.  A mirrorless camera that respects legacy users.  Olympus PEN (not OM)  Nikon 1(Not F)  Sony NEX (Not MAF) Samsung (Not K) Pentax Q (not K)   if the canon can take a fully functional EF lens, even via an adaptor then it is ahead of everybody else (Sony get close, but no cigar)

Could you clarify what is wrong with Sony's solution to adapting A-mount lenses?
They providers adapters, the second of which comes with PDAF SLT.

c.d.embrey

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #265 on: July 22, 2012, 01:05:40 AM »
I do see one thing I like about the lens that I wish Canon would do to all the lenses...... Did you notice the Lens cap? Has the squeeze grips like Tamron. :)

Don't you mean like Nikon and Sony ??? All the lenses I've bought for my Nikon and Sony cameras have come with squeeze grips :)


Hillsilly

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #266 on: July 22, 2012, 02:54:59 AM »
Who is this camera geared towards? Point and shooters that want to feel like they have a small dsrl?

If the pricing is acceptable, it autofocuses with EF lenses and it has an EVF, I bet most buyers will be current Canon DSLR users who want something smaller and unobtrusive (but high IQ) when going to parties, the beach, pubs, mountain biking etc etc.  It will be the people on this forum that snap them up. 

And I think Canon got it right by releasing the budget model first.  Right now, few people are going to drop $2500 for a mirrorless FF when they've just bought (or are saving up towards) a feature packed 5Diii.  But if there's an APS-C one for around $400-$600, most of us will consider it very tempting. Very, very tempting.

I currently use a Olympus PEN when my Mamiya medium format or 1Ds aren't really appropriate. (And I know many other use Sony's for the same reason).  I love my little Olympus, but I'd drop it in a flash if the new Canon satisfies my criteria (reasonable price, EF compatibility and EVF).
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peederj

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #267 on: July 22, 2012, 03:05:03 AM »
I am fully in agreement with those (e.g. Mr. Reid) that say that mirrorless is a strictly high-end opportunity and is not something for the consumer crowd. Because it is not pocketable, and changing lenses is just a pain and expense...for what? The consumer can't tell the difference in image quality, and if they did care so much about that, they would...go high end.

So the whole experiment with "prosumer" mirrorless compacts has run its course and what would be interesting is high-end offerings that are a bit lighter and more compact than the full-on DSLRs without sacrificing too much in the way of IQ. Canon did not grasp this in time it is clear. I doubt they will sell many EOS M's or EF-M lenses; the entire R&D investment might not even be recouped. The Sony RX100 already is far more interesting to me, and if it did 24p I would have ordered one already (especially if it was waterproof). I may order one yet just for slo-mo. But the expense stops there...no more lenses or anything else, it just is what it is.

So scrap the compact mount, scrap STM, just focus on getting high-end IQ and video features down in size and price running off EF and EF-S native mounts. Give this peanut gallery a camera it will genuinely love...price included...from day 1. Give away razors, sell blades...a camera that's truly great will generate a lot of high-end lens sales to pay off its R&D. Hoping for us to be so stupid as to buy a bunch of redundant cheapo lenses to run on a new mini mount ain't gonna work.

At least they can tell the shareholders they tried to climb on the sputtering bandwagon (albeit late and half-heartedly).

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #267 on: July 22, 2012, 03:05:03 AM »

dilbert

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #268 on: July 22, 2012, 04:13:30 AM »
I'm certainly with you on that. Not so sure about the M mount, but the rest of the specs are dead on to what I would also like to see from a large optical company like Canon. Especially since they had years to evaluate the market and produce something truly fantastic. This camera is just ridiculous as an entry to an already well established market.

Exactly! It is really about time, Canon comes out with a truly innovative and absolutely amazing camera.

Not gong to happen.

Canon is a/the market leader.

All that Canon is interested in doing is the minimum required to stay on top.

Flake

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #269 on: July 22, 2012, 04:27:42 AM »
I have to agree that this camera is not going to be for enthusiasts of any sort, and those of us wanting such are going to have to wait for a later model which has been mentioned in the rumours.

This camera is going to have to be cheap to sell in any numbers, the G1X is a fine camera with a very good lens, it's highly doubtful that the M camera will better it, and as it requires accessories such as a flash it's not going to be as flexible.

Who will buy this camera?  The ignorant with too much money?  not many of them around now, and I can see a colossal flop A La Nikon V1 which alas they appear to have copied.  I would be waiting until a higher end model comes along, but Canon have made such a hash of this that they may well decide this market is not for them, and never release a better model.

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Re: first pic of canon mirrorless?
« Reply #269 on: July 22, 2012, 04:27:42 AM »