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Author Topic: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?  (Read 14789 times)

unfocused

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2012, 03:15:28 PM »
BXL:

Great Post. Probably because I agree with almost everything you said and you said it very well.

Lately I've been trying to figure out how Canon might handle the 70D and 7D upgrades, given that the newly announced 7D firmware upgrade probably means we won't see a new 7D until 2013.

I wonder if Canon feels they might be able to get away without a major new sensor in the 70D. Add the video focusing features of the M-Series and T4i but keep the sensor at 18 mp with no major improvements in ISO, dynamic range, etc.

 I know that would be highly unusual for Canon to keep essentially the same sensor across two generations of a camera, but they may feel that putting most of the 7D features, plus a touch-screen control and live-view focusing for video, will offer sufficient improvements to justify an upgrade. They can still market it as a "new" sensor since it has on the new on-sensor auto-focusing. This would buy them six months or so to implement a new sensor for the 7DII and avoid having the 70D leapfrog over the 7D in sensor technology.

Admittedly, this is unlikely and would be controversial, but not outside the realm of possibility.
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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2012, 03:15:28 PM »

mathino

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2012, 03:55:45 PM »
BXL:

Great Post. Probably because I agree with almost everything you said and you said it very well.

Lately I've been trying to figure out how Canon might handle the 70D and 7D upgrades, given that the newly announced 7D firmware upgrade probably means we won't see a new 7D until 2013.

I wonder if Canon feels they might be able to get away without a major new sensor in the 70D. Add the video focusing features of the M-Series and T4i but keep the sensor at 18 mp with no major improvements in ISO, dynamic range, etc.

 I know that would be highly unusual for Canon to keep essentially the same sensor across two generations of a camera, but they may feel that putting most of the 7D features, plus a touch-screen control and live-view focusing for video, will offer sufficient improvements to justify an upgrade. They can still market it as a "new" sensor since it has on the new on-sensor auto-focusing. This would buy them six months or so to implement a new sensor for the 7DII and avoid having the 70D leapfrog over the 7D in sensor technology.

Admittedly, this is unlikely and would be controversial, but not outside the realm of possibility.

I agree with you. New xxD series aka 70D could look like this:

  • sensor - same as 650D with fancy new video autofocus
  • AF - fit 7D AF here to make it more appealing and to make difference from 650D AF (they are same now 60D and 650D)
  • ISO - same as 650D
  • body - definitely plastic body and articulating screen with touch sensitivity
  • FPS - keep it around 6 (or make it 8 if 7D Mk II gets 10 fps)

As for later (2013) announcement of 7D Mk II:
  • sensor - new 22 or 24 MPx sensor
  • ISO - better ISO at least 1 stop in RAW then current APS-C sensors
  • AF - 61-point AF like 5D Mk III
  • body - sealed magnesium alloy body without articulating screen, external mic and phones connection
  • FPS - make it to 10 or 11 fps
  • f/8 focus - maybe somehow tweak it to achive f/8 focus

With this, they could get away now with upgraded 60D and announce harder, better, faster, stronger ( ;D) 7D Mk II next year.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 04:07:45 PM by mathino »
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Rodknee

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2012, 05:21:22 PM »
the eos-m has the 18mp sensor of the 650d but reports say it has a 31 point af system - surely that might be part of a 70d set up as it excedes the 650d's 9point cross type?

BXL

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2012, 07:07:44 PM »
@unfocused

Maybe the 70D gets a new sensor... Remember the 450D? The 40D only had 10 MP, the 450D got a new sensor with  12 MP and the 50D a new sensor with 15 MP. The 70D is going to be around for the next two years thus the "old" sensor with 18 MP makes no sense to me. Maybe we see 20 or 22 MP.

@Rodknee

Haven't realized that until you mentioned it... the EOS-M has 31 points with 9 cross type focus points. It seems that canon is finally upgrading it's AF to compete with Nikon. Hopefully we see something like that in the 70D as well (maybe 45 AF points of which 19 are cross type AF points). I don't know but I think Canon used such an AF for the 1D III, thus the technology is developed (at least for APS-H). Since the 1D X and the 5D III are using the new 61 point AF system (and it is rumored that the next 7D will use it as well) there is enough room for an advanced AF for the 70D.

This means there are even more reasons why Canon had to release the firmware update for the 7D.

Coming back to the rumor of an entry level FF DSLR - IMO the "EOS 9D" ;) - why should it get the AF of the 7D or 70D? An AF with 9 cross type AF points would be an improvement over the AF of the 5D II and it would be cheaper as well. Don't forget that the gap between the entry level FF and the 5D III must be big enough, otherwise this new FF DSLR will cannibalize the sales of the 5D too much (remember the effect the 5D II had on the sales of the 1Ds III).

This camera would be a cash cow, using cheap materials and parts of other DSLRs to maximize profits:
  • 18 MP sensor of the 1D X
  • Improved AF of the 5D II with 9 instead of only one central cross type AF point
  • The firmware will limit the ISO range to 25600 (ISO boost to 51200)
  • Polycarbonate Body with articulating screen (great for macro and when using a tripod)
  • 4 fps and a burst of 15 raw images
  • maybe not even a top-panel LCD display to further reduce costs
  • SD/SDHC/SDXC instead of CompactFlash

Just speculation...  ;)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 07:15:13 PM by BXL »
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mathino

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2012, 04:27:25 AM »
This camera would be a cash cow - I agree on this, but it should have 7D-like body construction (at least 5D Mk II-like body construction). Many of current 7D, 5Dc, 5D Mk II users would skip plastic body.

  • 18 MP sensor of the 1D X - agreed
  • Improved AF of the 5D II with 9 instead of only one central cross type AF point - I see your point, but in that case 7D AF is also available for re-use. 7D AF would tease a lot of xxD, xxxD, 5Dc and 5D mk II users.
  • The firmware will limit the ISO range to 25600 (ISO boost to 51200) - agreed
  • Polycarbonate Body with articulating screen (great for macro and when using a tripod) - as I stated above, plastic body would not attract 7D, 5Dc or 5D Mk II users. I guess that articulating screen costs more than build-in.
  • 4 fps and a burst of 15 raw images - agreed
  • maybe not even a top-panel LCD display to further reduce costs - again, this would cost many possible customers not to go for it. I see them saying "even 60D has top LCD and FF does not ?!"
  • SD/SDHC/SDXC instead of CompactFlash - agreed, but it depends on video capabilities and needs for higher transfer speeds. Also 7D, 5Dc and 5D Mk II has CFs.

Well, these are my notes - not specs I want but specs that would attract many possible buyers/upgraders. With a price in 1800-2000 USD it could take place of current 5D Mk II.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 04:31:57 AM by mathino »
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dilbert

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2012, 06:14:44 AM »
...
I agree with you. New xxD series aka 70D could look like this:

  • sensor - same as 650D with fancy new video autofocus
...
[/list]

18MP isn't enough MP for a 70D unless it is FF and then only "maybe".

People that are shopping at that price point need and want more MP.

nicku

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2012, 06:39:44 AM »
My prediction are:

Body: Plastic combined with magnesium alloy, dimension, something like Canon 50D ( same BG-E2N battery grip compatible)

Sensor: 21 MP (the sensor from 5D2) or 22 MP from 5D3. The reason in my opinion is very simple: i don't believe canon will put in a cheap FF body (combined with the digic 5 or 5+  processor ) a sensor better than 5D3 in terms of noise at high ISO capabilities.

Specs:

- 7D AF
- 3,9 - 4,5 fps
- no serious weather sealing
- 96-97% viewfinder frame coverage
- 3'' LCD
- Video same as 5D2
- same other features like 5D2

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2012, 06:39:44 AM »

mathino

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2012, 07:03:35 AM »
...
I agree with you. New xxD series aka 70D could look like this:

  • sensor - same as 650D with fancy new video autofocus
...


18MP isn't enough MP for a 70D unless it is FF and then only "maybe".

People that are shopping at that price point need and want more MP.

Ok, so in that case Canon would need to put new APS-C sensor sensor in it  with 22 or 24 MPx. And later 7D Mk II would use the same sensor.

Hmm, more and more I doubt that 70D gets FF sensor. Looks to me like a new line/label is coming.
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BXL

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2012, 07:16:38 AM »
This camera would be a cash cow - I agree on this, but it should have 7D-like body construction (at least 5D Mk II-like body construction). Many of current 7D, 5Dc, 5D Mk II users would skip plastic body.
IMO those users are not the target market of that DSLR. And Canon will do something to prevent 5D owners from downgrading. For Canon the preferable way to upgrade is 5D -> 5D II -> 5D III but definitely not 5D -> 5D II -> "entry level ff". And owners of a XX0D or the 60D are used to a polycarbonate body, so I see no problem with that kind of material.

Quote
I see your point, but in that case 7D AF is also available for re-use. 7D AF would tease a lot of xxD, xxxD, 5Dc and 5D mk II users.
I remember how many people had difficulties with the 19 point AF of the 7D (mainly due to misconfiguration of the AF). Also, the 19 point AF is more useful for sport and action photography. Finally, the gap between this rumored entry level FF and the 5D III needs to be big enough. To choose between 9 and 41 cross-type AF points is easier than between 19 and 41 cross-type AF points. Maybe this FF gets a 31 AF point system, similar to the one used for the EOS M.

  • Obsolete: 9 AF points with a central cross type AF point (600D & 5D II)
  • Entry level 1: 9 cross type AF points (650D & 60D)
  • Entry level 2: 31 AF points with 9 cross type AF points (EOS M)
  • Advanced: 19 cross type AF points (7D)
  • Pro: 61 AF points with 41 cross type AF points (1D X & 5D III)

Quote
I guess that articulating screen costs more than build-in.
It's a mass product due to the numbers build for the 600D, 650D and 60D.

Quote
SD/SDHC/SDXC instead of CompactFlash - agreed, but it depends on video capabilities and needs for higher transfer speeds.
SDXC is fast enough for video and it's just an entry level consumer cam.

Quote
Also 7D, 5Dc and 5D Mk II has CFs.
The 400D and 50D also had CFs and Canon switched to SD.

Quote
Well, these are my notes - not specs I want but specs that would attract many possible buyers/upgraders. With a price in 1800-2000 USD it could take place of current 5D Mk II.
The street price might even drop to 1.500 USD/Euro after some months ;)
450D | EF 50 f/1.8 | EF 100 f/2 | 17-50mm f/2.8 VC

mathino

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2012, 08:22:47 AM »
IMO those users are not the target market of that DSLR. And Canon will do something to prevent 5D owners from downgrading. For Canon the preferable way to upgrade is 5D -> 5D II -> 5D III but definitely not 5D -> 5D II -> "entry level ff". And owners of a XX0D or the 60D are used to a polycarbonate body, so I see no problem with that kind of material.

I agree. Naturally the upgrade path is 5D - 5D Mk II - 5D Mk III. Its the way how Canon wants it. But many people complain about Mk III price. Sure it will go down. But 5D Mk III is rather a new cam then 5D Mk II successor. The way I think is that Canon needs camera that would take 5D Mk II place - FF for enthusiasts. As a 450D user I had no problems with polycarbonate but I would like to have thougher body - as many of xxxD and 60D users would have. But we will see how this comes out  ;)

Quote
I remember how many people had difficulties with the 19 point AF of the 7D (mainly due to misconfiguration of the AF). Also, the 19 point AF is more useful for sport and action photography. Finally, the gap between this rumored entry level FF and the 5D III needs to be big enough. To choose between 9 and 41 cross-type AF points is easier than between 19 and 41 cross-type AF points. Maybe this FF gets a 31 AF point system, similar to the one used for the EOS M.

Yes, I know about difficulties with 7D AF - but it is configurable. I can see either your configuration - 9 cross-type, 31 point AF - or 7D AF in this new FF. I would be happy with both but would prefer 7D AF (my personal choice/point of view).

Quote
It's a mass product due to the numbers build for the 600D, 650D and 60D.

True. As, for example, 7D AF module is  ;) 

Quote
SDXC is fast enough for video and it's just an entry level consumer cam.

Ive got plenty of storage in SDs so its a plus for me  :)

Quote
The street price might even drop to 1.500 USD/Euro after some months ;)

2000 USD/Euro at start, 1500 USD/Euro after couple of months - I like it  ;)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 08:26:07 AM by mathino »
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unfocused

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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2012, 10:39:56 AM »
I think everyone has this "upgrade path" thing wrong.

Obviously, for Canon the ideal upgrade path ends at a couple of 1Dx bodies. But they know that isn't going to happen for a majority of consumers.

Instead they are trying to offer multiple choices to take people as far up the path as possible. But, it's not necessarily a simple progression from Rebel to 60D to 7D to 5D to 1D. With a lower cost full frame, it's more likely to be from one DSLR body to two DSLR bodies. Two 7Ds, Two 5Ds, One 7D and one entry level full frame, One 5D and one 70 D...etc. etc.

Give the consumer as many choices as possible and convince people you have to have at least one each full frame and APS-C. That's the ideal "upgrade path" for Canon.
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Re: New, cheaper, Canon FF DSLR... 70D?
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2012, 10:39:56 AM »