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Author Topic: could the new EF-M mount support FF sensors too?  (Read 11314 times)

mitchell3417

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M Lens Mount Full Frame?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2012, 07:33:48 PM »
One question. Can a full frame sensor fit within the M-mount? I don't care if their going to make a camera with FF anytime soon. I just want to know if it's even possible to have a mirrorless FF camera from canon.

To me it looks like a FF sensor won't fit in the mount because of where the electrical contacts are located. Not enough circumference.
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M Lens Mount Full Frame?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2012, 07:33:48 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: M Lens Mount Full Frame?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2012, 07:37:40 PM »
Based on the images, I think you're right - a FF sensor isn't compatible with the EF-M mount.
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Don Haines

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Re: could the new EF-M mount support FF sensors too?
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2012, 07:54:13 PM »
People! You are getting two very different things confused.

First, on the EOS-M, the size of a full frame sensor is larger than the ROUND hole that the light has to enter the camera through. As long as a round hole is used, you will vignette the corners of a full frame sensor. you might be able to get away with making a rectangular hole, but this is not the way they have chosen to go with the EOS-M mount. This camera is designed to be small and to constrain it with a full frame sensor would be to negate that criteria.

Second, you can not say that this means that Canon will not design a FF mirrorless. This is the first try at mirrorless, not the final answer. You can bet that at some point in the future there will be far more capable mirrorless Canons out there, ones with tilt screens, viewfinders, and advanced wireless features that will make the current crop of FF's seem primitive by comparison... and yes, they will operate on the big glass.... why do you think Canon continues to put so much effort into thier prime lenses?

A digital camera is not a film camera. They have different strenghts and different weaknesses. To think that digital cameras should be designed like a film camera is to cheat yourself out of the future.
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TrumpetPower!

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Re: could the new EF-M mount support FF sensors too?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2012, 09:35:49 PM »
Eh, sorry. Looked like a 24-105 at first.
nope it does not :)

The one is 3.3" x 4.2" with a red ring, a wide focus ring at the front, a focus distance window, and uses a petal hood. The other is 3.1" x 3.4" with a red ring, a wide focus ring at the front, a focus distance window, and uses a petal hood. And one is the kit lens for the camera. And the picture of the lens is all of a few hundred pixels tall. Yes, at quick glance it's really not that hard to mistrake the one for the other in such circumstances.

Quote
Quote
But, again. An f/1.4 lens has an aperture twice the size as an f/2 lens, so is it any surprise that it's also substantially bigger?


he wrote that a EF 35mm f2 would make it look a bit better for the 5D.
but the body is still larger.

The bodies are essentially the same size, except the 5DIII has the housing for the pentaprism and the grip on the right-hand side.

and the 35mm f1.4 summilux is not that much bigger then the f2 summicron mounted on the leica in the picture.
Quote

Both Leicas have 2.1" diameters. The f/1.4 is a half-inch longer than the f/2. The Canon f/2 is bigger than the Leica f/2 but smaller than the Leica f/1.4. The Canon f/1.4 is larger, yes, but it's internal focus, it's got great autofocus, and it focusses down to 1' as opposed to the Leica's 2'. It's an entirely different lens intended for an entirely different function.

And, once again: if it's small and discreet that you want from a Canon camera, that's exactly what the Shorty McForty is for.
 
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You do know that that type of distinction exists solely in your own head, don't you?

i guess that´s why so many professionell photographers LOVE the leicas for street portraiture.
they all don´t know what they are doing.   :D

have you ever used a leica?

And what on Earth does any of that have to do with the general public's perception of a camera?

Just because the Leica is popular for street portraiture doesn't at all mean that people think that somebody using a Leica isn't using a serious camera. Quite the contrary: people who don't know about cameras will think you're a real photographer because you're obviously using an antique, and people who do know about cameras will know you've got lots of money to burn. With a 5DIII with a Shorty McForty, people who don't know about cameras will at most notice that yours is a little bit bigger than the typical G-series-style prosumer P&S, while those who do know about cameras will know you've got the trendy new toy.

Look, I'm not trying to say that Leicas are bad cameras. I'm just pointing out that many of the reasons people put forth for why Leicas are superior really don't have a whole lot of bearing in reality.

If you like a Leica because you actually like the user interface, because you prefer rangefinders to the 100% view from a 5DIII viewfinder, because you like the sound the shutter makes when it clicks, whatever -- fantastic. By all means, use your Leica and enjoy it.

Just don't kid yourself that you're getting something that takes better pictures (it doesn't, not by a long shot) or that's more inconspicuous (it isn't).

Cheers,

b&

EchoLocation

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No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2012, 11:36:03 PM »
"The EF-M mount is 58mm in diameter, with a flange distance of 18mm from the bayonet to the sensor. As the image above clearly shows it's matched specifically to the APS-C sensor size. So don't expect a future full frame EF-M mount camera - it's not going to happen."
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-m

Haven't seen much discussion of this, but for me this is a huge let down.....
Why would Canon wait so long to enter the game, make a new mount(EOS-M) and then restrict that to only one sensor size, with no hope for future upgrades to the line?
Is DPreview wrong?
The APS-C sensor gave me hope for a FF Leica killer coming someday soon, but now, it seems that this hope is dashed forever. I am a serious traveler and always travel as light as possible(and hopefully without $10k worth of Leica gear,) so I have been eagerly awaiting a smaller than DSLR full frame option....
Who will be the first to make a Full Frame Mirrorless, Sony, Fuji, Nikon?
Whoever does it, I will seriously look in to pre ordering.... but at the moment, all I have to look forward to is the new entry level FF DSLR(D600, or whatever Canon is making.) I really don't want to carry around a 24-70 and DSLR all the way from Asia to Africa(my next trip.)
ugh....
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Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2012, 11:37:28 PM »
Read some of the other EOS M threads.  its been discussed already, and DPR is not wrong.

mitchell3417

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Re: M Lens Mount Full Frame?
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2012, 11:42:39 PM »
a whopping one reply. no one disagrees then. good.
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Re: M Lens Mount Full Frame?
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2012, 11:42:39 PM »

EchoLocation

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Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2012, 11:45:27 PM »
Read some of the other EOS M threads.  its been discussed already, and DPR is not wrong.
i've read all the other threads.... but no one seemed to care very much...
I was considering pre ordering this one and upgrading later to the FF model. But this totally killed it for me. I love Canon and want to be their customer, but they are either pricing me out of the market(5DIII, 24-70 II) or just disappointing me lately. I don't understand how you can create a whole new system and lens mount with no room for upgrading the sensor at all. APS-C is great, but it isn't the pinnacle of photography.
I am really disheartened as it seems that Canon expects anyone who wants top quality images to be willing to spend 5k on gear.
I don't think is a reasonable price in this day and age. If I was a professional photgrapher i'm sure i'd feel different.
I will wait and hopefully the NEX system will drop a FF soon.
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Hillsilly

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Re: could the new EF-M mount support FF sensors too?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2012, 12:02:40 AM »
I'll preface this by saying I have no idea what I'm talking about, but....

The image size only has to be FF in size at the sensor.  The image could come out in a pyramidal shape from the lens (ie very narrow at the base of the lens and then expand to cover the FF sensor).  Most lenses work this way. It's pretty easy from a design perspective and I'd like to think EF-M lenses work this way, too.

Existing EF lenses might have their images come out in a different way (they might be "fatter" at the point of the mount - leading to loss of image / vignetting at the edges.  They might not be 100% compatible with a FF EF-M mount.  But they would still work in crop mode.

I learnt all of this in wishful thinking 101.

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neuroanatomist

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Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2012, 12:07:43 AM »
I will wait and hopefully the NEX system will drop a FF soon.

Don't hold your breath.  E-mount lenses for the NEX series are all APS-C image circle lenses.  Alpha lenses have too big a flange focal distance to be attractive on mirrorless. Sony is coming out with several more APS-C sized E-mount lenses, but for a FF NEX they'd have to create yet another whole series of lenses.  Unlikely.
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Ricku

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Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2012, 12:51:51 AM »
I'm with you.

This is downright depressing. I already knew that Canons first mirrorless would be non FF (in the growing sea of non FF mirrorless), but I still had high hopes for a future model with FF - something to rival the Leica M9 and the upcoming M10.

But no, instead Canon goes all out to please the soccer moms and casual hikers.

Yet another boring step by Canon.





« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 12:57:57 AM by Ricku »

preppyak

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Re: could the new EF-M mount support FF sensors too?
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2012, 12:58:58 AM »
Existing EF lenses might have their images come out in a different way (they might be "fatter" at the point of the mount - leading to loss of image / vignetting at the edges.  They might not be 100% compatible with a FF EF-M mount.  But they would still work in crop mode.
Except you've now destroyed the point of a full-frame mirrorless camera. Who is spending $1500-2000 (or more) on a camera that can't even work with their existing EF lenses with an adapter? Where they can still only get APS-C quality out of their L lenses.

It would require Canon to create at least a dozen L quality EF-M lenses, comparable to the EF versions, releasing before or at the same time as the full frame mirrorless...and customers that wantt to spend the extra money for all new lenses as well. By that point, it might not even be genuinely cheaper than a Leica system, because it'd be such a niche product they'd have to charge a premium.

It's why I'm not sure I see a full-frame mirrorless anytime soon. The current systems don't quite match DSLR usability, and the only way Canon could really pull it off would be to make it EF mount, which means the size advantage would be fairly limited as well.

preppyak

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Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2012, 01:02:26 AM »
Sony is coming out with several more APS-C sized E-mount lenses, but for a FF NEX they'd have to create yet another whole series of lenses.  Unlikely.
Yep, like I said in one of the other threads, to pull off a full-frame mirrorless, companies either would have to use their DSLR mounts (meaning the camera's aren't much smaller, negating size advantages), or they'd have to release an entire system of lenses that can match the current DSLR offerings. And since it's taken decades for Canon and Nikon to do that DSLR wise, I can't see anyone nailing that side of things in the immediate future.

I do think Sony would be the first to make a full-frame mirrorless, because they have a reason to innovate that Canon/Nikon don't, but they'd have some really tough choices to make to get there

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Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2012, 01:02:26 AM »

Ricku

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Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2012, 01:08:14 AM »
^ I guess you are right. Now that both Nikon and Canon screwed up their mirrorless debutes, I too think that Sony will be the first to go head to head with Leica. If they can pull it off..

Anyway, whoever makes the next sub-$4000 FF-mirrorless camera, gets my money.


EchoLocation

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Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2012, 01:26:32 AM »
depressing is right....
If Sony needs a whole new lens system for a FF NEX, why are there so many rumors about Pro Nex 9 or Nex11? I guess there's just a lot of uninformed people out there.
Perhaps Fuji is the best bet. Any chance of a FF Xpro? or would that need a new mount too?
I just don't understand the point of creating a whole new mount/system which will be constrained by one sensor size for eternity.
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Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2012, 01:26:32 AM »