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Author Topic: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons  (Read 18134 times)

mchubi

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 02:24:01 AM »
Well, some people will call this a "blasphemie". But if Canon could adapt Nokias pureview technology (http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/849564/data/2/-/Download1.pdf) to increase image-quality, especially high-iso would get quite a leap. Yes, first I thought "41mp cam in a smartphone. They're gone nuts!". But if you look at the taken images, well, at least in the p+s segment Canon could set up new fires.

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 02:24:01 AM »

paul13walnut5

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2012, 03:07:13 AM »
@awinphoto
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So they are upset that the president of the company in 1996-2006, (when canon ruled the digital world and was on top of the game)

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He helped canon get out of the struggling Film SLR market where they were seen as second violin to Nikon

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Of course, 2007 to present is when most view canon's fall to nikon

Directly contradictory post there... 

kdsand

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2012, 03:44:36 AM »
My esteemed colleagues I would like to thank you for all the valuable insight offered thus far.....
 :o

Any whooo.  ::)

I totally agree - go rob a bank if you want short term pay out. An executive should be compensated based on long term performance for crying out loud even regular employees have to go years to gain modest benifits such as being vested or being able to retire with a pension. Bring back some soul to business, pride in branding & reliability.

Certain markets are seemingly fairly predictable such as DSLR's and optics, though they seem to have been coasting by in the last several years. For example the 7D has been known as a great solid tool for years now so figure with how long the r&d & development took - its inception could potentially trace back around ten years. In the last several years the rebels & 60D have in a sense been offshoots of the 7D. I'm not so sure the 5DIII can claim a rock solid title but canon sure needs something to do so.

As far as cell phones vs point & shoots
Dont even try to compeat. Give people access with their cell phones & tablets to their cameras. Heck leave the screen off the camera for all I care I'm rubbing my nose against it anyway. I like and need a nice screen but I already carry several anyway. Imagine having the new M linked wireless to your phone then you would have room for a view finder. Regardless cell phones & tablets will soon be linked to our cameras. Its already happening. 

If other Canon divisions are floundering I doubt they dare rock the boat much in the consumer optical arena but they can't stagnate and loose much more ground to Nikon either. It will be interesting.

2¢ here and 2¢ there.
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4D

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2012, 04:42:51 AM »
He has a tough task ahead. Some financial insight from Bloomberg news:

"Canon Inc., the world's largest camera maker, plunged the most in more than three years in Tokyo after cutting its full-year profit forecast because of a stronger yen and expectations for weaker global growth.The shares declined 7.8 percent to close at 2,470 yen, the most since November 2008.

The company kept the sales target for single-lens reflex cameras, used by professionals, unchanged at 9.2 million units. Appreciating YenThe maker of EOS models said earlier this week the company is introducing its first mirrorless model in September, joining Nikon Corp. in tapping growing demand for lightweight cameras with interchangeable lenses.

“Even as the worsening macro economy and a stronger yen were expected to damage Canon's earnings, an intensifying competition in laser printers was unexpected,” Tetsuya Wadaki, an analyst at Nomura Securities Co., said in a report yesterday. It was also a surprise that sales estimates weren't improved after a new mirrorless camera model was unveiled on July 23, he said."

Canon-F1

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2012, 04:52:47 AM »
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Less reliance on Japanese Manufacturing and labour costs.

as long as he will not outsource everything to crappy china im ok with a 70+ chairman.

outsourcing camera production to china would be a moronic thing to do.
china has no real digital camera producion yet.. but that would change very fast.

china steals every idea and comes up with a cost reduced cheaper product.
they build a factory to produce outsourced stuff for you and 500m away they build a second factory to copy your ideas.

the end result you can see when looking at studio strobes and studio accessories.
a zillion of cheap clones.
not bad for the customers at first sight.. but sure bad for the companys who outsourced to china....
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 05:02:12 AM by Canon-F1 »

Canon-F1

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2012, 04:57:07 AM »
He has a tough task ahead. Some financial insight from Bloomberg news:

"Canon Inc., the world's largest camera maker, plunged the most in more than three years in Tokyo after cutting its full-year profit forecast because of a stronger yen and expectations for weaker global growth.The shares declined 7.8 percent to close at 2,470 yen, the most since November 2008.

well bad fo shareholders but that´s the problem with stocks.
you can make a profit but as long as you don´t make MORE profit then last year every shareholder will scream and whine... 


i think he will maybe have a though task to keep shareholders happy (they are a bunch of greedy morons anyway) ... but not to keep canon profitable.
 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 05:01:22 AM by Canon-F1 »

4D

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 05:28:15 AM »
He has a tough task ahead. Some financial insight from Bloomberg news:

"Canon Inc., the world's largest camera maker, plunged the most in more than three years in Tokyo after cutting its full-year profit forecast because of a stronger yen and expectations for weaker global growth.The shares declined 7.8 percent to close at 2,470 yen, the most since November 2008.

well bad fo shareholders but that´s the problem with stocks.
you can make a profit but as long as you don´t make MORE profit then last year every shareholder will scream and whine... 


i think he will maybe have a though task to keep shareholders happy (they are a bunch of greedy morons anyway) ... but not to keep canon profitable.
 

I agree about the stock price, but if cashflow is drying up as suggested by the analysts, the global economy is slowing rapidly,  then the incentive to spend big on R&D is low, better to sweat some more return out of existing lines and work already done.

That's why it is tough. Balancing keeping shareholders and tough crowds of users wanting state of the art equipment happy.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 05:32:21 AM by 4D »

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 05:28:15 AM »

marekjoz

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2012, 06:06:48 AM »
Maybe a solution at least in the DSLR area would be a killer FF, a cashcow like 5d2, was? They have really good profit margin on it. If they put 1dx sensor in a 5d3 body, reduce iso and fps, they may collect enough to survive and get ready for next year.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 07:56:15 AM by marekjoz »
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Canon-F1

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2012, 07:29:27 AM »
If they put 1dx sensor in a 5d3 body, reduce iso and fps, they may collecti enough to survive and get ready for next year.

survive?

well.. thats some sort of word i would expect at fox news headline.

canon is making less PROFIT.... that´s not the same as making billions of loss like sony.



paul13walnut5

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2012, 07:53:30 AM »
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survive?

well.. thats some sort of word i would expect at fox news headline.

That made me LOL.

Until recently I was genuinely of the firmly held opinion that Fox News was a really subtle satire along the lines of the 'The Day Today' or 'Brass Eye'....

marekjoz

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2012, 08:28:17 AM »
If they put 1dx sensor in a 5d3 body, reduce iso and fps, they may collecti enough to survive and get ready for next year.

survive?

well.. thats some sort of word i would expect at fox news headline.

canon is making less PROFIT.... that´s not the same as making billions of loss like sony.

yes, survive. If shareholders are unhappy, many stupid things can occur. Of course I didn't mean they are about to close the business. What I mean't for survive was: "running business as usually and evolve without any revolution as it might be too risky."
What I should mention before is, that I don't think that revolutionary changing the way they work and manage would be safe. I'd rather see putting some fresh air but without sending old guys out. Revolution in their case might happen bad. The whole organisation is rather very conservative and it of course causes a problem with innovation.
 Some of you require more revolutionary and groundbreaking solutions and I don't see them achieving it the way, I guess you might expect. Let them do their job and follow the market innovations first (but without being closed with patents).
For the company it is important to invest in R&D, because this is the way they can be technologically competive on the market and this is their asset. It requires time and efforts and doesn't give results right now. The other way to be innovative is an incident, like accidently following some fresh idea and getting good results (ie - there is a guy, who got his 100k for development his idea and he succedeed, but they gave him like 5% chance for success).
You might run R&D evolutionary step by step providing feedback from the market with laboratory and scientific work or get 20 young yuppies, give them 100k each and wait for the results - maybe someone gets something interesting. I simply don't see it in their case the other way, so the very important thing for them in a long horizon time is collecting money for long term R&D, without making shareholders angry with these - from their point of view - unneccessery spendings. It's safe to collect money for R&D with such a cashcow. Let fhem flow the market with cheaper and good FF with much less profit margin than currently.
Do they miss innovations because they have not enough money for it? Most probably.I wouldn't like to get know that they follow the path: "If there is no solution so there is no problem". The other look on this sounds: "If the problem can be solved with money, then this is not a problem, this is a cost". In their case in fact this is an investment, which they need as a water and air, because without R&D they will not survive as company we know them today. This company maybe doesn't react what you would like, but still most of us like their products. Without money, they will not invest in R&D. With shareholders demanding higher stock prices and larger sales number so the more profit for them, they can cut money for R&D which would bring money back is some time.
     
           Cashcow -> money -> R&D -> Survive

Making such a cashcow is currently the best way to collect money for R&D and survive in a longer term. That's what I wanted to say and this is the only revolution, they could afford.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 08:33:32 AM by marekjoz »
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Neeneko

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2012, 08:59:04 AM »
Wow... A bunch of whining here.  Canon produces camera after camera that continues to push ISO quality and resolution at the same time while packing them with mind blowing features like 6, 10, 14FPS!!! Do you pixel peepers even use your cameras anymore?

I think comments like this are why we can't have nice discussions.

This pretty much reduces to 'features I find important are improving, anyone who says otherwise does not matter because they are a pixel peeper'.

Yes, Canon has pushed forward in certain domains.  They have been flagging in others.  One of the classical problems when you have stagnant leadership is you tend to get a culture of tunnel vision, increasingly singular criteria that they optimize for because the group think says that is the set of metrics that 'matter', which can leave a company blind to shifts or emerging markets.

In order to continue to be successful on the scale Canon is, you have to address as many profitable market segments as possible, not narrow down to a smaller segment(s) that 'matter(s)' and hope brand loyalty and 'good enough' carry the others.

Then there was their mirrorless entry.  A lackluster clone in a new market which already has some serious contenders in it.  For the moment there is no good reason to buy the Canon mirrorless over others outside the brand, and brand can only take you so far when your primary target is new customers.

marekjoz

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2012, 09:10:05 AM »
Wow... A bunch of whining here.  Canon produces camera after camera that continues to push ISO quality and resolution at the same time while packing them with mind blowing features like 6, 10, 14FPS!!! Do you pixel peepers even use your cameras anymore?

I think comments like this are why we can't have nice discussions.

This pretty much reduces to 'features I find important are improving, anyone who says otherwise does not matter because they are a pixel peeper'.


Yes, there is a whining, because for many people 5d3 didn't give significant value to go for it. Could it give more for the same money? I think it could without canibalizing other products. Why didn't it give? Only three reason I see:
1. They couldn't offer anything better because they didn't have it. Solution -> better R&D.
2. They could offer but didn't want to. Why? Do they have something else for collecting money from the market or they didn't evaluate the market demand and needs properly? Solution -> give us something else, or don't loose a contact with the market.
3. They couldn't offer anything better because their profit margin would fall down. Solution -> decide: more outsourcing, less control, better product value, more profit or worse product, better control, own manufacturing and less profit in total because of the gross sales.
If they are satisfied with the value they've built with 5d3, then there is no reason to look for reasons in falling global economy or exchange rates because it means in the end, that the value built with 5d3 was not good enough.
Maybe it is the similar situation with their other products?
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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2012, 09:10:05 AM »

paul13walnut5

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2012, 09:17:37 AM »
@marekjoz
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Yes, there is a whining, because for many people 5d3 didn't give significant value to go for it.

Don't go for it then.

Next.

marekjoz

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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2012, 09:23:22 AM »
@marekjoz
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Yes, there is a whining, because for many people 5d3 didn't give significant value to go for it.

Don't go for it then.

Next.

Welcome to adult people discussion.... Everything's fine, Canon is great and they don't make mistakes knowing what they will do in ten years ahead.
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Re: "Time for a Change at Canon?" -Barons
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2012, 09:23:22 AM »