Portrait Lighting - Newbie

[Mike Ca]

The wealth of information that can be gathered from here is wonderful.  All of you had excellent tips, links and ideas  -thank you for this.  I've begun looking into some of this already however no conclusions.  Another pr Miss America photographer online recommended a Novotron V400D 3.   I didn't realize initially that mobile could indicate out doors without electricity.  As of the moment(but may in the future) I may have this need to shoot outdoors and did some reading about the key light and and fill lights. The mobile portrait studio (for now) will be for indoor use where electricity would be available and was planning on driving to the client's homes, doing a setup with a backdrop, etc.  Granted, it is possible, they may want shots in their backyard or at a park but I have the option of calling the shots here and client will follow.  So, to redefine for the moment, an indoor set up which would be expandable for outdoor would be a better description (my apologies for not being as descript as I should have been).  I would think backdrops (black,white,green), Key and fill light, all white umbrellas or black/silver and 1 white, light stands and anything else to be added here would be helpful.  Not sure of lighting wattage (?) needed for indoor (400 or 800 ?), I would presume 10x10 backdrops (?).  Good ideas on the clamps and tape..setup is useless without those I would gather

I believe since the 5D doesn't offer a trigger, some type of triggering system is needed ? I did see the note on the Canon vs. the Knockoff.   I do have access to a second 580 EX (not EX II).  I saw a fellow photographer put both his 580 EX's on stands and bounce them off soft white umbrellas - that's all he had (2 umbrellas, stands and 2 x 580 EX's).   Is this a good route for indoors to start (of course a backdrop is needed).  lastly, I have a 7D that has wireless trigger built in - is there a way to sync this with the 5D MKIII or is this only wishful thinking on my part?

You can do very well indoors with a couple of 580ex II. These do not put out as much light as big studio strobes, but they put out enough for portraits of 1 or 2 people with modifiers like umbrellas. You can get f/8 at ISO 200 or f/11 ISO 400 with just 2 580Exs. If you like portraits at f/2.8 or f/4, then you have plenty of light.

You can certainly get started with 2 lights. In fact one light and a reflector for fill works just fine too. I mostly use 3 to 5 lights (all flashes), main, fill, hair or separation, and zero to 2 lights on the background. It all depends on what style of portraits you want to do. Actually, with white backgrounds 2 lights is not enough to blow the background out. I really need 4 lights on the background.

Shoot through umbrellas are the least expensive and most portable modifiers.  A softbox gives you more control of where the light goes. When you are shooting in a home with light colored walls and ceilings, you will get reflected light bouncing off the walls and ceilings. This actually helps soften the light, but you also get a color cast from the walls and ceilings. You get more reflected light off walls and celings with umbrellas than you do with a softbox. This difference is small and if you shoot raw you can correct the color cast in post processing, so it is not a big deal.  Most photo studios have dark colored walls and ceilings so they do not get reflected light.

For triggering off camera flash, the cheapest way to go is get a 30ft E-TTL cable from Flash Zebra or OCF Gear. This allows you to run a the cable from you 5D to one of the 580Ex that you can use as a master to control the other one. I have used this indoors and it works just fine with 580EX flashes on umbrellas.  I also have PW+II radio triggers that I sometimes use indoors and always use outdoors.

[Drizzt321]

I've been starting to work with remote speedlites via Oden Phottix II (works great), with a 580 EX II I got a while ago, and a Yongnuo YN-560 which is manual only, but pretty good for non-TTL work. 2 light stands, 2 umbrellas, 2 hotshoe to lightstand mounts which include an umbrella holder. I just got my Eneloops in so haven't had a chance to use it with them, but at least on the YN-560 the refresh time is supposed to be much faster than with Alkaline.

How are they with the 5d3?  Heard the yongnuo wont work with the 5d3 but will work with the 5d2?

Well, it should work just fine. The YN-560 is manual only, so there's no TTL/ETTL at all. Set the power on the head, and fire. I haven't actually mounted it directly on my 5d3, only used it through the Starto II RF triggers, but works just fine.

If you're talking about some of the other Yongnuo speedlites with TTL/ETTL support, I have no clue. I'm probably going to buy another 2-4 of these 560's sometime along with a couple dual hotshoe brackets so I can double the power per 'head', or keep the power the same but have faster refresh by lowering the power on each of the speedlites. It's kinda too bad that these don't do HSS, but for $60 on Amazon, they're a good buy for what they are.

[Halfrack]

If you're going to have a power source, it may be worth looking at constant CFL lighting as an option as well - youtube has a few build it yourself lights with off the shelf parts.  You'd setup the scene with lights, then shoot freely within the space. 

Look at some of the manual flash options, and dumb wireless triggers do work.  Just know that you'll spend more time getting things 'set' with power settings and such.

[awinphoto]

I've been starting to work with remote speedlites via Oden Phottix II (works great), with a 580 EX II I got a while ago, and a Yongnuo YN-560 which is manual only, but pretty good for non-TTL work. 2 light stands, 2 umbrellas, 2 hotshoe to lightstand mounts which include an umbrella holder. I just got my Eneloops in so haven't had a chance to use it with them, but at least on the YN-560 the refresh time is supposed to be much faster than with Alkaline.

How are they with the 5d3?  Heard the yongnuo wont work with the 5d3 but will work with the 5d2?

Well, it should work just fine. The YN-560 is manual only, so there's no TTL/ETTL at all. Set the power on the head, and fire. I haven't actually mounted it directly on my 5d3, only used it through the Starto II RF triggers, but works just fine.

If you're talking about some of the other Yongnuo speedlites with TTL/ETTL support, I have no clue. I'm probably going to buy another 2-4 of these 560's sometime along with a couple dual hotshoe brackets so I can double the power per 'head', or keep the power the same but have faster refresh by lowering the power on each of the speedlites. It's kinda too bad that these don't do HSS, but for $60 on Amazon, they're a good buy for what they are.

I'm talking about the yongnuo trigger that does the AF assist, triggering and ettl...  Heard all over the place the 5d3 wont work with it... but if it works with manual only, then maybe it's something to consider.

[Drizzt321]

I've been starting to work with remote speedlites via Oden Phottix II (works great), with a 580 EX II I got a while ago, and a Yongnuo YN-560 which is manual only, but pretty good for non-TTL work. 2 light stands, 2 umbrellas, 2 hotshoe to lightstand mounts which include an umbrella holder. I just got my Eneloops in so haven't had a chance to use it with them, but at least on the YN-560 the refresh time is supposed to be much faster than with Alkaline.

How are they with the 5d3?  Heard the yongnuo wont work with the 5d3 but will work with the 5d2?

Well, it should work just fine. The YN-560 is manual only, so there's no TTL/ETTL at all. Set the power on the head, and fire. I haven't actually mounted it directly on my 5d3, only used it through the Starto II RF triggers, but works just fine.

If you're talking about some of the other Yongnuo speedlites with TTL/ETTL support, I have no clue. I'm probably going to buy another 2-4 of these 560's sometime along with a couple dual hotshoe brackets so I can double the power per 'head', or keep the power the same but have faster refresh by lowering the power on each of the speedlites. It's kinda too bad that these don't do HSS, but for $60 on Amazon, they're a good buy for what they are.

I'm talking about the yongnuo trigger that does the AF assist, triggering and ettl...  Heard all over the place the 5d3 wont work with it... but if it works with manual only, then maybe it's something to consider.

Ah, I don't have that trigger. I have the Phottix Strato II RF triggers. The Yongnuo trigger you're talking about is something else, don't have any experience with it.

[TrumpetPower!]

You can do very well indoors with a couple of 580ex II.

The 580 is an excellent flash, but it only makes economic sense if you're mostly going to be using it in the hotshoe or in ultra-portable remote shooting scenarios. As soon as you take it off the camera, it becomes underpowered and overpriced.

It's about $500 at B&H. For that same $500, you can get Paul C. Buff's flagship Einstein studio flash, or you can get a pair of AilenBees B800 320 Ws heads -- any of which will put out <i>far</i> more light than the 580. Plus, the studio flashes are designed to work with any and every modifier imaginable, all the way from beauty dishes to seven-foot parabolic reflectors to even more massive arrays of octabanks to high-focus overhead stadium flashes for sports...with the 580, you're doing good to get decent results with a 10" softbox or an 18" umbrella.

Again, I'm not trying to put down the 580. It's an awesome hotshoe flash, and well worth every penny. It's just that it <i>is</i> a hotshoe flash, and it's no more a good idea to use it as a studio flash (or compare it with a studio flash) than it is to use a studio flash handheld at an event (or to do so and complain about the size, weight, and the length of the power cord). Horses for courses and all that....

Cheers,

b&

[paul13walnut5]

A used 580 mk1 is as good, or even a 430 or 420.  The TTL will sort it out, or use group ratios.

Maybe studio flashes are overpriced given they can't be used on the camera on location, or do stroboscopic?

[revup67]

Wow..after days of reading this thread, gathering ideas from all that have contributed from Trumpet, Paul, Wicki, etc, reading upon reading especially gained much insight from the blogspot.strobist site, I had to fine tune my needs at the moment which are portrait (1-4 persons), mobility, flexibility and sturdy.

I think what I may go with (please object and steer me back on course if need be) is the following:
Using the 580 EXII as a Master on camera and having it trigger the YongNuo 565IIs Flashes x 2 of them acting as slaves - they from the reviews appear excellent and at $135 ea will do the trick.  I believe (need help here) the 580 EXII can trigger both so I don't need a Strato II or King Wireless TTL Flash Trigger or ST-E2 (is this correct) that the 580 will be the transmitter.  Two umbrellas with stands that can mount the 565 II's, weights to hold down the stands (recommendations for good quality stands with sturdy strobe holders would be appreciated).  A back drop system such as http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/331732-REG/Interfit_COR756_Background_Support_System.html, clamps to hold the back drop, backdrop paper or muslin, gaffer tape.  Also thinking about the Pixel TD583 which helps recycle the flash in 1.24 seconds vs. built in. Wondering though if this will also aid off camera slave flashes?  Couldn't determine from tutorials or do I need one of these for each flash? 

If I have more control with Soft Boxes than Umbrellas and more versatility then I would prefer to get soft boxes.  Recommendation for brand, stands and strobe holders would be appreciated.  I think I will hold off on wattage kits at the moment as that appears to be more studio single to 4 person portraits are the immediate need.  Would like to generate business with the kit I assemble then migrate to a 800 w/s system that Wicki had recommended as my budget is around $500 - $750 for now.  Thank you in advance again for all of your kind assistance.

[wickidwombat]

For the stands umbrellas backdrops etc I suggest going to an ebay seller called selens they have good quality stuff are helpfull and will replace damaged items too I've bought a lot of stuff from them and can confidently recommend them. Also get some spare umbrellas as they arr easy to break so just buy cheap ones don't get uber e/pensive lastolite gear or anything. Yongnous will be fine just remember you won't have hss. I woukd recomend geting a set of ebay povety radio triggers I got a set caled dslrkit 1 trigger and 3 recievers with hot shoes and umbrella holders built in cost 40 bucks good for playing around with manual flash and handy if you can't always have line of sight

[revup67]

Yongnous will be fine just remember you won't have hss. I woukd recomend geting a set of ebay povety radio triggers I got a set caled dslrkit 1 trigger and 3 recievers with hot shoes and umbrella holders built in cost 40 bucks good for playing around with manual flash and handy if you can't always have line of sight

I am ok without HSS especially since most of my shots will be indoors.  I guess I still don't get the concept of how the 580 EXII can be a Master and trigger Slaves such as the YN 565 or even a pair of 430 II's yet I still need a triggering system.  Sorry for the mundane question on the triggering system vs what the 580 EX II does.  Have searched them out but unclear on the difference between the two as I thought if I have the 580 mounted on camera and enabled as a Master it would communicate with the the 565's or 430 ex's.

Update:  spoke with Canon support on the 580 EXII - when it acts as a master on camera with other flashes as slaves Infrared (not radio of course) it should be fine within the 15 foot - 20 foot perimeter (not great through walls where radio prevails).   Sounds like I might not need another trigger system (at least at this point) - thanks for the heads up on Selens - will check out their stuff

[wickidwombat]

The flashes use a built in ir system which needs line of sight so sometimes you can't or have difficukty getting that so having some cheap radio triggers as a backup is handy

[RLPhoto]

4x 600 EX RT's and accessories. Done.

[Drizzt321]

Yongnous will be fine just remember you won't have hss. I woukd recomend geting a set of ebay povety radio triggers I got a set caled dslrkit 1 trigger and 3 recievers with hot shoes and umbrella holders built in cost 40 bucks good for playing around with manual flash and handy if you can't always have line of sight

I am ok without HSS especially since most of my shots will be indoors.  I guess I still don't get the concept of how the 580 EXII can be a Master and trigger Slaves such as the YN 565 or even a pair of 430 II's yet I still need a triggering system.  Sorry for the mundane question on the triggering system vs what the 580 EX II does.  Have searched them out but unclear on the difference between the two as I thought if I have the 580 mounted on camera and enabled as a Master it would communicate with the the 565's or 430 ex's.

Update:  spoke with Canon support on the 580 EXII - when it acts as a master on camera with other flashes as slaves Infrared (not radio of course) it should be fine within the 15 foot - 20 foot perimeter (not great through walls where radio prevails).   Sounds like I might not need another trigger system (at least at this point) - thanks for the heads up on Selens - will check out their stuff

If you put umbrellas in between the slaves and the subject the master will be bouncing the IR off of, you might not get it to work. I never tried it, I just have been using the Strato II's. I'd go with the super cheap ebay RF triggers if you are going to use any light modifiers, they should work well enough most of the time.

[revup67]

Wicki and Drizz - thanks for the heads up on the radio triggers - the Strato II appear excellent by the reviews I have read.  Just need to confirm that (1) 580 EXII (own) (1) 580EX (can borrow anytime) and (1)430EXII (to buy) or a YongNuo 565 will all work off the Strato's

[Drizzt321]

Wicki and Drizz - thanks for the heads up on the radio triggers - the Strato II appear excellent by the reviews I have read.  Just need to confirm that (1) 580 EXII (own) (1) 580EX (can borrow anytime) and (1)430EXII (to buy) or a YongNuo 565 will all work off the Strato's

They will trigger (flash) with the Strato's, I'm certain of that, but you will not get ETTL, except if you have one mounted on the transmitter on top of your camera. You'll have to manually set the power on the remote speedlites, then shoot a shot to check exposures, and adjust as necessary. If you want wireless ETTL, that's a lot more expensive. You'll need to move up to the more expensive Phottix Odin's, or Pocket Wizards or one of the couple other brands out there.