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Author Topic: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]  (Read 22566 times)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: August 06, 2012, 10:16:56 PM »
I partly agree but the differences can be a bit more apparent than you imply IMO even for non-cropped 19" prints. And once you crop and moreso when you are distance limited, I mean just look at how much more detail a 7D can toss on a bird than a 5D2.

I must admit, this really doesn't excite me all that much.

There's more resolution to be had in the 135 format, yes. Probably even up into the 80 megapickle range.

But we're well past the 80/20 rule and firmly into the realm of diminishing returns.

Even theoretically, if you never print bigger than 24" x 36", even if you crop heavily, today's top-end full-frame cameras are more than enough. And, in the real world, those same cameras are just fine up to as wide as you can print on an iPF8100. Yes, a side-by-side comparison with such a print between a 5DIII and a D800 might maybe possibly reveal a bit more sharpness perhaps in the print from the D800...but only if you stand so close to the print that you can't even see the whole thing even if you turn your head.

...which is where the larger formats come into play. If a 5DIII or even a 1DX ain't gonna cut the mustard, then, really, neither is the D800 nor anything else in the 135 format. You'll need at least 645 format, if not all the way to large format, for the kinds of prints where the 5DIII is inadequate.

And let's not forget the cost, in terms of both performance and storage capacity. The new camera sure as Hell won't be 12 FPS, and it ain't gonna be 6 FPS, either. And you better plan on getting bigger and faster cards as well as a new RAID array to support it.

All for...what? 40" x 60" prints that look as sharp as today's 36" x 54" prints? Is that really worth it?

I'm sure, assuming the trend continues, that I'll eventually wind up owning a camera with more megapickles than my 5DIII. But, in all honesty, I don't see that happening until said camera has the non-sensor camera specs of the 1DX. Because, when it comes right down to it, it's not the sensor that's the weak link in today's cameras -- not by a long shot, and it hasn't been for quite some time.

Indeed, it's been that way ever since digital surpassed film, for that matter...which was somewhere around the dawn of the modern DSLR era, as I recall....

Cheers,

b&

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: August 06, 2012, 10:16:56 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #91 on: August 06, 2012, 10:18:24 PM »
Ok. more megapixels. That was always going to happen.

But will the sensor be any better?
Will it still have vertical banding up the wazoo in dark areas?
Will the read noise be the same?
Will the dynamic response be about the same?

What was so good about the D800 wasn't just the increase in number of pixels but the quality of those pixels.

yeah it's low ISO DR that was even more impressive
(and ability to still hit 5-6fps under certain circumstances)

briansquibb

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2012, 01:05:29 AM »
Ok. more megapixels. That was always going to happen.

But will the sensor be any better?
Will it still have vertical banding up the wazoo in dark areas?
Will the read noise be the same?
Will the dynamic response be about the same?

What was so good about the D800 wasn't just the increase in number of pixels but the quality of those pixels.

yeah it's low ISO DR that was even more impressive
(and ability to still hit 5-6fps under certain circumstances)

Everyone goes on about the D800 - excluding mps it is barely to the 2007 1Ds3 standard as an all-round camera

Even my 2004 1Ds2 is still churning out impressive pictures at 16x12.

I have found that modern sensors are so good that the critical factor is the lens. Comparing an image from a 24-105 with one from a 200 f/2  on the same body shows up on larger print with better detail definition as well as improved contrast and colour rendition. The 70-200 f/2.8 II is very good as well.

If you are only taking for the web then a 5Dc plus top lens is as good as anything (as it gives that unique 5Dc colour rendition)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:42:53 AM by briansquibb »

Bosman

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2012, 01:21:42 AM »
Buy the camera and brand that works for what you do and be happy but wait if you have one or the other that doesn't fit your upgrade path. People don't need to switch. I switched from Nikon in 2007 and i kicked myself in 2008 when the Nikon d3 came around. I wasted $3000 on switching. Did i get more work or more amazing results, not that i recall. Its really sad when i see people switching because those who do buy into the BS behind it. Buy your camera learn everything about it and love it! If you need more mp from Canon then wait, it won't be long. I truly believe that and i know its even a rumor but its just logical since the 1dx only fits 60% of the Canon pro body photographer purchasers out there since the mp havent been upped. If however you needed the mp, then D800 it is. Its really not as political as it seems. Does a tool fit your workflow? That is the question that you need to ask. For me, the D800 is outside my workflow as like the d800 is so slow to begin with that Nikon would make people hate them with a med raw option since it would take a decade to write it. Also, I have prob 15 or more Hard drives and i can tell you the D800 would make me need 5 more this year alone if I had one. No thanks.
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lola

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #94 on: August 07, 2012, 04:08:48 AM »

Everyone goes on about the D800 - excluding mps it is barely to the 2007 1Ds3 standard as an all-round camera


You made my day!

Resolution and DR have direct impact on IQ and yet you compare D800 with 1Ds Mark III.



Even my 2004 1Ds2 is still churning out impressive pictures at 16x12.


My 2001 Fiat Coupé still runs very smooth, you think I should compare it to a 2012 Mercedes-Benz?
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briansquibb

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #95 on: August 07, 2012, 04:35:49 AM »

Everyone goes on about the D800 - excluding mps it is barely to the 2007 1Ds3 standard as an all-round camera


You made my day!

Resolution and DR have direct impact on IQ and yet you compare D800 with 1Ds Mark III.



Even my 2004 1Ds2 is still churning out impressive pictures at 16x12.


My 2001 Fiat Coupé still runs very smooth, you think I should compare it to a 2012 Mercedes-Benz?

Resolution beyond those pixels needed have no impact on IQ. a 10mp picture when printed contains no extra detail whether it comes from a 21mp camera or a 36mp camera. It is the colour rendition and clarity that really counts.

DR on the 1DS3 is very close that on the D800 - particularly in normal shooting where DR requirements rarely get above 10. The 1Ds3 matches the noise of the D800 at 50-200iso

I would be very surprised indeed if there was any visible improvement on a 16x12 from a D800 rather than the 1Ds3 - particularly when the Canons superior lens are taken into account.

kirillica

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: August 07, 2012, 08:47:33 AM »
My 2001 Fiat Coupé still runs very smooth, you think I should compare it to a 2012 Mercedes-Benz?
It's not a correct comparison, if you take it in general. Yes, old gear cannot produce large prints on, let's say, 300DPI. but for web or 10*15cm - you won't see the difference. I even saw some test pictures from Hassy and some mirrorless camera: on 10*15cm 300dpi print-size even professionals can't distinguish which belongs to which camera ;)

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: August 07, 2012, 08:47:33 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #97 on: August 07, 2012, 11:08:58 AM »
My 2001 Fiat Coupé still runs very smooth, you think I should compare it to a 2012 Mercedes-Benz?
It's not a correct comparison, if you take it in general. Yes, old gear cannot produce large prints on, let's say, 300DPI. but for web or 10*15cm - you won't see the difference. I even saw some test pictures from Hassy and some mirrorless camera: on 10*15cm 300dpi print-size even professionals can't distinguish which belongs to which camera ;)

10 x 8  @300dpi is about 8mp

16 x 12 @300dpi is 4800 x 3600 which the 5D2/5D3/1Ds3 manages natively - you wont tell that from a D800 except by colour rendition (maybe)

Bosman

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2012, 02:08:24 PM »
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml


Quote
The Results

In every case no one could reliably tell the difference between 13X19" prints shot with the $40,000 Hasselblad and Phase One 39 Megapixel back, and the new $500 Canon G10. In the end no one got more than 60% right, and overall the split was about 50 / 50, with no clear differentiator. In other words, no better than chance.


:D
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lola

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2012, 02:17:32 PM »
20D, 40D, 5D, 5D Mark II, 1DX, D800 EF 17-40mm. f/4.0 L USM, EF 70-200mm. f/2.8 L USM, EF 24-105mm. f/4 L IS USM, EF 100mm. f/2.8 L IS USM Macro, AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm. f/2.8 G ED VR II, AF Micro Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #100 on: August 07, 2012, 07:34:42 PM »

Everyone goes on about the D800 - excluding mps it is barely to the 2007 1Ds3 standard as an all-round camera



You made my day!

Resolution and DR have direct impact on IQ and yet you compare D800 with 1Ds Mark III.



Even my 2004 1Ds2 is still churning out impressive pictures at 16x12.



My 2001 Fiat Coupé still runs very smooth, you think I should compare it to a 2012 Mercedes-Benz?


Resolution beyond those pixels needed have no impact on IQ. a 10mp picture when printed contains no extra detail whether it comes from a 21mp camera or a 36mp camera. It is the colour rendition and clarity that really counts.

DR on the 1DS3 is very close that on the D800 - particularly in normal shooting where DR requirements rarely get above 10. The 1Ds3 matches the noise of the D800 at 50-200iso

I would be very surprised indeed if there was any visible improvement on a 16x12 from a D800 rather than the 1Ds3 - particularly when the Canons superior lens are taken into account.


Have to start off saying that I completely agree with you regarding Canon lenses. In recent years, the quality of Canon optics has shot to the top of the charts. They are sharper, with better lens coating (SWC, or SubWavelength Coating, is a nanocoating technology not related to multicoating), and lighter in weight than pretty much anything from the competition. Not even Zeiss compares to a Canon lens these days when you factor in lens flare, which is FAR better controlled on Canon lenses (many Zeiss lenses flare very badly, despite the use of their much-vaunted T* multicoating.)

Lenses aside, I think we need to clear up the facts behind some of your other arguments. First off, color rendition. This is a VERY OLD argument that dates well back to the early days of color film, and color film in general. It meant a lot when you found a color film that produced the kind of color you really liked. I am not a big film shooter myself, however I've seen quite a few photos shot with film. Most of my favorite landscape photographers who still use or have heavily used film in the past all seem to use Velvia 50, and for good reason. A few have chosen other types of film, such as Provia, for the types of work they do...such as winter landscapes taken at the poles...the cooler tone of Provia suits those regions better than Velvia in many cases.

The idea that a digital sensor and particular camera can produce better digital color than any other camera is an odd idea. For one, digital sensors don't see in color at all, for all intents and purposes. The pixel values read out of any given photodiode are simply a scalar value representing a luminance reading. In a bayer sensor, each pixel has a color filter over it to restrict the wavelengths of light that actually reach the photodiode, but it doesn't make the raw value read out of that pixel more blue, red, or green by any measure of the word...its still just a luminance value, albeit linked to a certain (relatively broad) wavelength range. What makes those raw pixel values have color is the algorithmic demosaicing process performed by a computer. A key component of such algorithms is the RGB tone curve applied to each channel during demosaicing. Apply the same exact tone curves of the 1Ds III to any other Canon camera, and the results will be nearly identical. If there are any discrepancies, its not a difficult process to tweak some RGB curves in ACR, Lightroom 4.1, or any variety of other RAW processor to normalize the results. You could even save those tweaks as import or camera profiles that are then automatically applied to every photo you import from any number of cameras, and achieve the exact color rendition you want every time you import any photos from any camera.

To put it in simpler terms: Color rendition is a SOFTWARE MATTER, not a hardware matter. The notion that any particular camera is solely capable of producing the kind of final output color you want is archaic, and really needs to be eliminated from discussions about digital photography and camera gear. It applied to film because of the largely immutable nature of any given film (excluding what you could do with chemicals and projectors in a dark room)...but just about EVERYTHING is mutable with a RAW file.

The next point about the downscaled results of a D800 not looking any better than the native results from a 1Ds III, I strongly dispute. Printed at a high PPI and at maximum DPI, such as 600ppi at 4800x2400 or 720ppi at 2880x1440/5760x1440 will easily demonstrate either the inferiority of the 1D III or the superiority of the D800. Downscaling such a large native image by so much is a far better approach to sharpening the photo, as you have more source data to work with than if you simply apply a sharpen filter to the 1Ds III. As someone who has spent about three years printing my own work, I can attest to the benefits of printing at 600ppi rather than 300ppi, even for photos that you wouldn't think could benefit from it (See my article here: http://photo.stackexchange.com/a/2737/124). The improvements are subtle but meaningful to anything more than a basic cursory glance. In my experience, at least for fans of my work, a high quality, 600ppi print will draw most viewers in closer than a 300ppi print is suitable for, and I always get exclamations about the fine, sharp detail. And these are 8x10, 8.5x11, 12x18, 13x19 prints...nothing exceptionally large. For the larger prints I do have, such as 24x36" and 30x40" canvas prints, the difference between a 150ppi print and a 300ppi print are also noticeable, even to eyes less trained than my own. The more source data you have to work with, regardless of whether you are printing huge or printing small, can and does have an impact on the final results. I'd take a 36mp sensor any day for my 8x10 and 13x19 inch prints, if solely to provide the crisp, sharp, clear results I want without the need to apply a halo-creating sharpening filter that inevitably shows up in print regardless my efforts.

To say that the D800's resolution advantage has NOTHING to offer whatsover over the 1DsIII is somewhat naive. If nothing than for the intrinsic "sharpening" you gain when downscaling a huge image to nearly half its size, and the ability to avoid having to apply a halo-generating sharpening filter, is valueable. Not to mention the quality of those sharper edges...sharpening tends to enhance undesirable artifacts, increases microcontrast in undesirable ways at times, etc. Downscaling absorbs undesirable artifacts and doesn't unduly increase microcontrast where it doesn't belong, nor overdo acutance along strong edges, producing a cleaner result. Printed at high PPI (600/720), I'd take the D800 (or a high-MP EOS) over the 1DsIII every time.
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Lawliet

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #101 on: August 07, 2012, 07:57:25 PM »
  If there are any discrepancies, its not a difficult process to tweak some RGB curves in ACR, Lightroom 4.1, or any variety of other RAW processor to normalize the results.

To put it in simpler terms: Color rendition is a SOFTWARE MATTER, not a hardware matter. T

That assumes an analogue signal sans noise, once quantified you can run into banding problems. With a filter array that requires less manipulation you're less likely to run into problems caused by  the realities of data processing.

bdunbar79

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: August 07, 2012, 07:57:28 PM »
I read your post jrista and one minor question I had regarding your images you are observing for your arguments, what exactly do you do when you "downsize" say, a 21mp photo out of camera?  What exactly do you mean by this?  I think I know, but I wanted to be clear.  Thanks.

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: August 07, 2012, 07:57:28 PM »

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #103 on: August 07, 2012, 09:48:02 PM »
I read your post jrista and one minor question I had regarding your images you are observing for your arguments, what exactly do you do when you "downsize" say, a 21mp photo out of camera?  What exactly do you mean by this?  I think I know, but I wanted to be clear.  Thanks.

Downsize, downscale, sorry if I'm using confusing terms. The D800, with a 36.3mp sensor, produces images 7360x4912 pixels in size. The 1DsIII, with a 21.1mp sensor, produces images 5616x3744 pixels in size. The D800 images are 72% larger in terms of area than the 1DsIII images. If you scale down the D800 images from their native size to the size of the 1DsIII images, you are effectively producing an enriched image compared to the 1DsIII. Its the same size, but it was produced from more source information, which has the dual effect of normalizing noise (I wouldn't say it necessarily reduces the noise floor, just makes the difference between each pixel due to noise less), and theoretically producing more accurate output pixels relative to a native 1DsIII image of the exact same thing.

  If there are any discrepancies, its not a difficult process to tweak some RGB curves in ACR, Lightroom 4.1, or any variety of other RAW processor to normalize the results.

To put it in simpler terms: Color rendition is a SOFTWARE MATTER, not a hardware matter. T

That assumes an analogue signal sans noise, once quantified you can run into banding problems. With a filter array that requires less manipulation you're less likely to run into problems caused by  the realities of data processing.

If you were making significant changes to each color channel with custom RGB curves, you might enhance noise in any given channel. But you would have to be making some very significant changes. The degree of changes you would need to make to normalize the color output of, say, a 5D II to a 1DsIII is very minor in the grand scheme of things...no where near enough to actually affect noise on any meaningful level. Granted...not having to do any fiddling at all is still a benefit, and if you are unwilling to spend an hour ONCE per camera to create a camera or import profile to produce the kind of color tone you want, then spending a lot of money on a top-tier camera like the 1DsIII might indeed be worth it. Generally speaking, though, I wouldn't say color quality is really a solid reason to spend thousands of dollars more for a camera. I think there are FAR more compelling reasons to spend that money, such as better weather sealing, better metering, and usually a better AF system.

Back to noise, namely at low ISO (where electronic noise has the potential to dominate.) If the D800 had the same amount of electronic noise as the 1DsIII, scaling its images down to to 5616x3744 pixels would mitigate about 72% of that noise relative to the 1DsIII, but you wouldn't actually completely normalize the results. Seeing as the D800 has considerably less electronic noise (over 600% LESS in relative terms!!!), scaling down by 58% should have the effect of producing images that are far cleaner and clearer than the 1DsIII...without any post-process noise reduction or sharpening.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:52:35 PM by jrista »
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bdunbar79

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2012, 09:54:59 PM »
Thanks, I understand now.

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2012, 09:54:59 PM »