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Author Topic: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]  (Read 35515 times)

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2012, 07:34:42 PM »

Everyone goes on about the D800 - excluding mps it is barely to the 2007 1Ds3 standard as an all-round camera


You made my day!

Resolution and DR have direct impact on IQ and yet you compare D800 with 1Ds Mark III.



Even my 2004 1Ds2 is still churning out impressive pictures at 16x12.


My 2001 Fiat Coupé still runs very smooth, you think I should compare it to a 2012 Mercedes-Benz?

Resolution beyond those pixels needed have no impact on IQ. a 10mp picture when printed contains no extra detail whether it comes from a 21mp camera or a 36mp camera. It is the colour rendition and clarity that really counts.

DR on the 1DS3 is very close that on the D800 - particularly in normal shooting where DR requirements rarely get above 10. The 1Ds3 matches the noise of the D800 at 50-200iso

I would be very surprised indeed if there was any visible improvement on a 16x12 from a D800 rather than the 1Ds3 - particularly when the Canons superior lens are taken into account.

Have to start off saying that I completely agree with you regarding Canon lenses. In recent years, the quality of Canon optics has shot to the top of the charts. They are sharper, with better lens coating (SWC, or SubWavelength Coating, is a nanocoating technology not related to multicoating), and lighter in weight than pretty much anything from the competition. Not even Zeiss compares to a Canon lens these days when you factor in lens flare, which is FAR better controlled on Canon lenses (many Zeiss lenses flare very badly, despite the use of their much-vaunted T* multicoating.)

Lenses aside, I think we need to clear up the facts behind some of your other arguments. First off, color rendition. This is a VERY OLD argument that dates well back to the early days of color film, and color film in general. It meant a lot when you found a color film that produced the kind of color you really liked. I am not a big film shooter myself, however I've seen quite a few photos shot with film. Most of my favorite landscape photographers who still use or have heavily used film in the past all seem to use Velvia 50, and for good reason. A few have chosen other types of film, such as Provia, for the types of work they do...such as winter landscapes taken at the poles...the cooler tone of Provia suits those regions better than Velvia in many cases.

The idea that a digital sensor and particular camera can produce better digital color than any other camera is an odd idea. For one, digital sensors don't see in color at all, for all intents and purposes. The pixel values read out of any given photodiode are simply a scalar value representing a luminance reading. In a bayer sensor, each pixel has a color filter over it to restrict the wavelengths of light that actually reach the photodiode, but it doesn't make the raw value read out of that pixel more blue, red, or green by any measure of the word...its still just a luminance value, albeit linked to a certain (relatively broad) wavelength range. What makes those raw pixel values have color is the algorithmic demosaicing process performed by a computer. A key component of such algorithms is the RGB tone curve applied to each channel during demosaicing. Apply the same exact tone curves of the 1Ds III to any other Canon camera, and the results will be nearly identical. If there are any discrepancies, its not a difficult process to tweak some RGB curves in ACR, Lightroom 4.1, or any variety of other RAW processor to normalize the results. You could even save those tweaks as import or camera profiles that are then automatically applied to every photo you import from any number of cameras, and achieve the exact color rendition you want every time you import any photos from any camera.

To put it in simpler terms: Color rendition is a SOFTWARE MATTER, not a hardware matter. The notion that any particular camera is solely capable of producing the kind of final output color you want is archaic, and really needs to be eliminated from discussions about digital photography and camera gear. It applied to film because of the largely immutable nature of any given film (excluding what you could do with chemicals and projectors in a dark room)...but just about EVERYTHING is mutable with a RAW file.

The next point about the downscaled results of a D800 not looking any better than the native results from a 1Ds III, I strongly dispute. Printed at a high PPI and at maximum DPI, such as 600ppi at 4800x2400 or 720ppi at 2880x1440/5760x1440 will easily demonstrate either the inferiority of the 1D III or the superiority of the D800. Downscaling such a large native image by so much is a far better approach to sharpening the photo, as you have more source data to work with than if you simply apply a sharpen filter to the 1Ds III. As someone who has spent about three years printing my own work, I can attest to the benefits of printing at 600ppi rather than 300ppi, even for photos that you wouldn't think could benefit from it (See my article here: http://photo.stackexchange.com/a/2737/124). The improvements are subtle but meaningful to anything more than a basic cursory glance. In my experience, at least for fans of my work, a high quality, 600ppi print will draw most viewers in closer than a 300ppi print is suitable for, and I always get exclamations about the fine, sharp detail. And these are 8x10, 8.5x11, 12x18, 13x19 prints...nothing exceptionally large. For the larger prints I do have, such as 24x36" and 30x40" canvas prints, the difference between a 150ppi print and a 300ppi print are also noticeable, even to eyes less trained than my own. The more source data you have to work with, regardless of whether you are printing huge or printing small, can and does have an impact on the final results. I'd take a 36mp sensor any day for my 8x10 and 13x19 inch prints, if solely to provide the crisp, sharp, clear results I want without the need to apply a halo-creating sharpening filter that inevitably shows up in print regardless my efforts.

To say that the D800's resolution advantage has NOTHING to offer whatsover over the 1DsIII is somewhat naive. If nothing than for the intrinsic "sharpening" you gain when downscaling a huge image to nearly half its size, and the ability to avoid having to apply a halo-generating sharpening filter, is valueable. Not to mention the quality of those sharper edges...sharpening tends to enhance undesirable artifacts, increases microcontrast in undesirable ways at times, etc. Downscaling absorbs undesirable artifacts and doesn't unduly increase microcontrast where it doesn't belong, nor overdo acutance along strong edges, producing a cleaner result. Printed at high PPI (600/720), I'd take the D800 (or a high-MP EOS) over the 1DsIII every time.

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2012, 07:34:42 PM »

Lawliet

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2012, 07:57:25 PM »
  If there are any discrepancies, its not a difficult process to tweak some RGB curves in ACR, Lightroom 4.1, or any variety of other RAW processor to normalize the results.

To put it in simpler terms: Color rendition is a SOFTWARE MATTER, not a hardware matter. T

That assumes an analogue signal sans noise, once quantified you can run into banding problems. With a filter array that requires less manipulation you're less likely to run into problems caused by  the realities of data processing.

bdunbar79

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2012, 07:57:28 PM »
I read your post jrista and one minor question I had regarding your images you are observing for your arguments, what exactly do you do when you "downsize" say, a 21mp photo out of camera?  What exactly do you mean by this?  I think I know, but I wanted to be clear.  Thanks.
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jrista

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2012, 09:48:02 PM »
I read your post jrista and one minor question I had regarding your images you are observing for your arguments, what exactly do you do when you "downsize" say, a 21mp photo out of camera?  What exactly do you mean by this?  I think I know, but I wanted to be clear.  Thanks.

Downsize, downscale, sorry if I'm using confusing terms. The D800, with a 36.3mp sensor, produces images 7360x4912 pixels in size. The 1DsIII, with a 21.1mp sensor, produces images 5616x3744 pixels in size. The D800 images are 72% larger in terms of area than the 1DsIII images. If you scale down the D800 images from their native size to the size of the 1DsIII images, you are effectively producing an enriched image compared to the 1DsIII. Its the same size, but it was produced from more source information, which has the dual effect of normalizing noise (I wouldn't say it necessarily reduces the noise floor, just makes the difference between each pixel due to noise less), and theoretically producing more accurate output pixels relative to a native 1DsIII image of the exact same thing.

  If there are any discrepancies, its not a difficult process to tweak some RGB curves in ACR, Lightroom 4.1, or any variety of other RAW processor to normalize the results.

To put it in simpler terms: Color rendition is a SOFTWARE MATTER, not a hardware matter. T

That assumes an analogue signal sans noise, once quantified you can run into banding problems. With a filter array that requires less manipulation you're less likely to run into problems caused by  the realities of data processing.

If you were making significant changes to each color channel with custom RGB curves, you might enhance noise in any given channel. But you would have to be making some very significant changes. The degree of changes you would need to make to normalize the color output of, say, a 5D II to a 1DsIII is very minor in the grand scheme of things...no where near enough to actually affect noise on any meaningful level. Granted...not having to do any fiddling at all is still a benefit, and if you are unwilling to spend an hour ONCE per camera to create a camera or import profile to produce the kind of color tone you want, then spending a lot of money on a top-tier camera like the 1DsIII might indeed be worth it. Generally speaking, though, I wouldn't say color quality is really a solid reason to spend thousands of dollars more for a camera. I think there are FAR more compelling reasons to spend that money, such as better weather sealing, better metering, and usually a better AF system.

Back to noise, namely at low ISO (where electronic noise has the potential to dominate.) If the D800 had the same amount of electronic noise as the 1DsIII, scaling its images down to to 5616x3744 pixels would mitigate about 72% of that noise relative to the 1DsIII, but you wouldn't actually completely normalize the results. Seeing as the D800 has considerably less electronic noise (over 600% LESS in relative terms!!!), scaling down by 58% should have the effect of producing images that are far cleaner and clearer than the 1DsIII...without any post-process noise reduction or sharpening.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:52:35 PM by jrista »

bdunbar79

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #94 on: August 07, 2012, 09:54:59 PM »
Thanks, I understand now.
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kirillica

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #95 on: August 08, 2012, 03:56:23 AM »
briansquibb & kirillica; here's a good read for you...

Quote
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2009/02/why-80-megapixels-just-wont-be-enough.html
:)))) that's so funny to read and compare to this link: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml

btw, resolving power of the newest lenses is equal or below 60Mpix. and they are dreaming about 400Mpix sensors :D

Woody

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2012, 05:27:41 AM »
Ok. more megapixels. That was always going to happen.

But will the sensor be any better?
Will it still have vertical banding up the wazoo in dark areas?
Will the read noise be the same?
Will the dynamic response be about the same?

What was so good about the D800 wasn't just the increase in number of pixels but the quality of those pixels.

You'll probably receive many +1 for your post. Count me in. ;D

If... if Canon can somehow nail this low ISO DR thing, and if they also release a 14-24 f/2.8L lens with killer resolution like the Nikkor equivalent, they'll have no fear of losing their status as market leader.

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2012, 05:27:41 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2012, 05:43:32 AM »
Apparent sharpness due to downsizing is a software issue - and therefore can be made equal

Colour rendition in digital can be replicated - however it is extremely difficult to match the curves. Each channel has different sensitivity - which is why the colours vary.

I still stand by my original proposition in that the prints from a 5d2/5d3/1DS3 are probably indistinguishable from a D800 until the  native pixel size is exceeeded - about 16x12

The 1Ds3 excels because of the lack of noise and banding upto iso400, add the better Canon lens and the print IQ will match the D800

Where mps really helps is for very large images or in cropping. The cons of large mps is the ability to save the images fast enough - which is where the D800 is limited.

I am looking forward to compare low iso images from the 1DX and 1Ds3  - 18mps vs 21 mps 



 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 05:53:25 AM by briansquibb »

Bosman

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #98 on: August 08, 2012, 08:00:52 PM »
I want a 1dx! I'll just live thru you guys experiences. :D
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paulrossjones

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #99 on: August 14, 2012, 04:39:02 AM »
I would love:
  • A 36+ Mp camera body from Canon
  • In a 1Dx-style body
  • The best dynamic range delivered at the lowest ISO values
  • Deliver more pixels rather than higher frame rates
  • Provide the best Live View focus/framing possible, in lieu of 60-point autofocus tech
  • Target the still-life/landscape/studio photographer, not the PJ or sports guy
  • Eventually eliminate the flapping mirror and provide an eye level HD video finder

exactly what i am wanting. i have tested a d800 along side my 5dmk3 quite a lot, and the d800 files eat the canons files both in latitude in the darks and sharpness. I need more file size, every job i shoot have multiple croppings.
the 5dmk3 has been very disappointing- hardly any improvement for stills over the mk2 except better focus.

but i have a lot of canon glass, and i really like the canon lenses over nikon. i would like to keep with canon, but i am in the situation that i might have to buy a d800.

one feature i would love is wider placement of the focus points. i went through my portfolio and 60% of the shots that subject matter is outside the focus points.

i would happily pay more for the camera over the 1dx. i just want a camera that can finally retire my contax/p65+ .

paul

Lawliet

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #100 on: August 14, 2012, 05:18:03 AM »
I would love:
  • The best dynamic range delivered at the lowest ISO values

Combine that with a higher sync speed and I'm happy - the D800 can go to 1/320 via custom setting, the 1Dx with dumb triggers or FlexTT syncs a full stop faster then the 5D3. Outdoors that not only cuts the amount auf packs and their batteries/gas generators in half, but also helps with blur from ambient light.
And don't be cheap on the light meter... :)
That was an interesting revelation when I realized that compensating for the 5D3s shutter costs more then a D800 plus the bread and butter lenses :o

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2012, 06:45:57 AM »
It´s true that the 5D Mark III is only better in speed and AF.

But I don´t like the image quality from the D800E. In my opinion it´s not advisable to put more than 30 megapixels on a FF chip.

If you compare the image quality from the D800E with the image quality of a medium format camera the D800E loose, because the image is totally unsharp. But it´s all a question what are you willing to pay for the best image quality.

rumorzmonger

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2012, 08:34:36 AM »
It´s true that the 5D Mark III is only better in speed and AF.

But I don´t like the image quality from the D800E. In my opinion it´s not advisable to put more than 30 megapixels on a FF chip.

If you compare the image quality from the D800E with the image quality of a medium format camera the D800E loose, because the image is totally unsharp. But it´s all a question what are you willing to pay for the best image quality.

My images from the D800E were extremely sharp, when the camera was used with a good lens (14-24mm f2.8G) and when the camera could manage to get the focus right.

If Nikon were ever to come clean and admit the problems this camera has, and come up with fixes for their AF problems, crippled Live View, and clean up their wide-spread QC issues, I would switch back in a heartbeat.
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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2012, 08:34:36 AM »

bdunbar79

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #103 on: August 14, 2012, 09:27:27 AM »
I want to see the REAL 1Ds Mark IV.
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paulrossjones

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2012, 03:42:15 PM »
It´s true that the 5D Mark III is only better in speed and AF.

But I don´t like the image quality from the D800E. In my opinion it´s not advisable to put more than 30 megapixels on a FF chip.

If you compare the image quality from the D800E with the image quality of a medium format camera the D800E loose, because the image is totally unsharp. But it´s all a question what are you willing to pay for the best image quality.


in what way are the d800 files lacking?

in all my tests the d800 absolutely leaves my 5dmk3 files for dead. far better dynamic range, especially in the darks. when the darks are lifted, the file just lightens, doesn't have any of the ugly clumping canon grain.
I have only tested up to 1000 iso (the most i ever need) , and the d800 looks better then as well- more film like in the grain. The 5dmk3 has a terrible low light quality- especially when the light has a colour cast.
the resolution is a lot more, upsizes better.

if you test the cameras- you will see that more than 30mp does hold up with sensor. the files are sharper, the graduations are smoother. have you actually shots both cameras side by side?

i also have a 60mp phase back on a contax, and although this is sharper than the nikon, i think i prefer the d800 files for the look over the phase (that has the same horrible low dark grain as the canon).

also, the tethering into a macbookpro retina with usb3 is a lot faster than the 5dmk3/usb2 - even though the files are almost twice the size.

I have tested a rented d800 for 2 days now side by side with my mk3, and file wise i can honestly sat the nikon eats the canon.

i dont really like the handling or the lenses of the nikon, so im holding out for canon to come up with an answer to the d800.

paul

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2012, 03:42:15 PM »