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Author Topic: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]  (Read 35459 times)

DzPhotography

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2012, 10:45:50 AM »
So it would have a higher res than the 1Dx and just 2fps less?  That is the part I don't get.  I think the 7D is due for replacement, and these maybe the specs, but if they are, I don't see it getting here till mid next year.  1DX supply is tight still, eh?
We're talking entirely different sensors though. For outdoor sports shooters who get bright sunlight, sure, there might not be a big difference. But then again, the current 7D would probably be fine for them (though the AF upgrade would be nice)

But for anyone working inside or in lower light, the 1DX sensor can shoot comfortably at ISO 12,800 and even 25,600, and the current 7D struggles at ISO 1600. Even assuming they get an extra stop out of the 7D sensor, its still well behind.
The current 7D is still usable at 3200 ISO, if you use raw and some NR in f.i. LR afterwards imho...
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2012, 10:45:50 AM »

crasher8

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2012, 10:47:04 AM »
I have a 7D, for the moment(as I await the release of a new FF or a 5D2) I wouldn't really care if they did away with this lonesome model, it seems it's little brother the XXD line is creeping up and will swallow the 7D. Most likely with T4i features and better ISO performance. The notion that the next aps-c body should have 1DX and 5D3 features is ridiculous.
To remain in a certain price point, <$2k, there will have to be compromises. Since the current 7D already has some pro level features tells me to design and tool a new body with at least those said features and a sensor with better low light IQ it would be creeping into 5D3 pricing so a 70D without the weather sealing and  magnesium body would make much more sense for a flagship prosumer APS-C body with better ISO and IQ than the 7D. I think the firmware update was a 'gift' to 7D users and we may not see the line continue. Too many crops in Canon's line anyway iyam.

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2012, 10:47:16 AM »
If I were Mr. Canon Inc. and I wanted to bring out a new model crop sensor body with improved AF, faster fps, better DR and lower noise, plus retain existing products within the product line whilst selling the Mark 2 for $1,000 more....

........ then I'd introduce a 7D2 with 24MP APS-H sensor (thus larger pixel size, so better DR) using dual-DIGIC5+ processors, thus improving both noise & ISO performance and bumping the fps up from 8 to 10.......

.... but then again, I'm not in charge of Canon Inc., so this is pure speculation.... but it would allow them them to introduce a new APS-C Flagship (the 70D), at the same time it would keep the 5D3 as a FF upgrade from the 7D2 at a cost of $750-$1,000 more.

Think about it, most serious photographers have 2 or more bodies, with many opting for the 7D for additional reach. The IDIV is no longer in production, so for many pro's and enthusiasts, the 7D is a logical choice, but a 7D2 would entice many 1DX and 5D3 owners to purchase a 7D2 as a 2nd body.

It would also allow Canon to keep the xD series as the Professional line, then the xxD would be for the serious enthusiast/Semi-Pro, the xxxD bodies for the hobbyist and the xxxxD for the Noobs.

crasher8

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2012, 10:53:37 AM »
Anyone else see the rumor floating around about an August 27/28th announcement from Canon on the 7D2/70D? Folks at dpreview forum have been tossing it around. No substantial  info so far but was wondering if anyone here has heard a thing. Hell that's next week!

dlleno

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2012, 11:05:50 AM »
Maybe it's the Sony 24MP APS-C sensor  ;D

Or it's rumored by Sony:
1. Start making people dream about 24MP APS-C from Canon
2. Wait for Canon making people dissapointed
3. Advertising: "Come to daddy..."

 ;D

thats hilarious, and maybe even true, lol!   after all, this is a CR1 rumor and no more credible than those before it. I suspect the purpose is to keep the flame alive. 

That said,  the content in this one for the first time mentions noise with an oblique reference to the shortcomings of the 7D in that regard.  Its as if someone is reading the forums and putting stuff out there known to generate lots of activity :D

Anyway unless Canon really strikes with a new and disruptive "C" sensor technology  there's seriously no way these rumored specs will come to life without going to an H sensor, which of course re-hashes all the same chatter again on that topic, for example how horrible it would be to force 7D upgraders to sell their S lenses to 70D owners, how the integer "7" and the letter "C" can never be separated, etc..  Alternatively, if they do have such a disruptive crop sensor, capable of pushing the pixel density limit while at the same time reducing noise, then they already have, "in hand",  successor technology to the 5D3 and 1DX, requiring only the migration to the FF production. 




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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2012, 11:34:49 AM »
The 7D will be replaced eventually, but until then I still love mine. 8)

zrz2005101

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2012, 12:56:59 PM »
If this spec list is true, I'm in, getting rid of the 1D4 and the 7D for this new one.
As long as it has what it promised on this spec list :) and by noticeably lower noise, I hope, it will be on par with the current 1D4...
AF...well, if it's as good as the 1D4 or even 1D3, that's good
others I don't really care that much
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2012, 12:56:59 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2012, 01:09:02 PM »

Late to the thread, but my two bits are below.

I agree on a few things:

  • Must have higher frame rate than 5D3 (which is 6 fps), given it's sports / length heritage.  10 fps is reasonable, but the current 8 fps is probably more than most need, right?
  • APS-C for certain.  Other folks online are saying the new 7D will be their entry FF camera, and that's absurd, IMHO.  The name 7D means 'top end APS-C', and any entry FF camera they offer will likely be stripped down for features.  (I'm buying that the new entry level FF will be called the 6D.  Just makes sense.)
  • Higher than 18 MP for certain, as the current 7D sensor is somewhat long in the tooth, and is in the current T3i and T4i cameras, right?  24MP seems a logical number, but perhaps there is a 5D3 video scalability that makes 22 the right number.  (Whatever.)

Dubious on others:

  • Highly doubt it gets the 1DX/5D3 AF system.  1Ds III and 1D4 owners were furious when the 5D3 got the best-in-the-world AF system -- they prefer each and every aspect of their 1D cameras to be best in class and not offered in other cameras.  That's how you consistently get $7k for a camera.

No fricken way:

  • This year.  Not a chance.  I read the recent firmware update (really, a big upgrade) as a stiff-arm for offering a new 7D for at least another year.

Interesting stuff.  I'm curious to see (per my AF comments) just how best-in-class this camera will be. 

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willis

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2012, 01:11:28 PM »
No way that's going to happen, 7D would be better than 5D3 in specs but without FF sensor.
But if it so, definitely going to upgrade.
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2012, 01:25:10 PM »
A 7D successor is coming. I am convinced. Especially after seeing that Camerashops are offering the current 7D with a present (like a Wacom tablet) I do believe they do that to get rid of their stock samples.

I hope the 7D MKII will inherit the 61-AF
- 61-point AF with up to 41 cross-type AF points
- ISO up to 25600 and Less high ISO noise at 6400 (would be great if that would be even 12800)
- dual slots

I don't mind keeping 18 megapixels and same framerate as now.

I think that at the end , the 7D MKII willl be positioned where the 1D MKIV is now and replace this camera. So no more x1.3 but only x1.0 and x1.6 (as where the 7D MKII is the top of the APS-C line)

preppyak

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2012, 01:37:56 PM »
The current 7D is still usable at 3200 ISO, if you use raw and some NR in f.i. LR afterwards imho...
[/quote]Oh, I agree, but, the 1DX gets about the same results at 25600; it basically is a full 4 stops better than the 7D sensor. Which is understandable when you consider one is a 3yr old APS-C sensor and the other is the top of the line full-frame sensor.

My point was that I don't expect Canon to have any worries about whether a 7DII has 1DX features, because its low light ability will never be able to match it.
If Canon were listening to what photographers want, how near is this specification to what 7D users have been asking for in a MkII ?
Well, if it does video at 1080/60fps, it'd be more than most users were expecting. The fps and AF are about what most expect, and the sensor sort of goes either way. I think most wanted an improved 18mp, while others wanted more or APS-H.

If that spec list is true, it'd be a well embraced camera.

I hope the 7D MKII will inherit the 61-AF
- 61-point AF with up to 41 cross-type AF points
- ISO up to 25600 and Less high ISO noise at 6400 (would be great if that would be even 12800)
- dual slots
I do think they will have to reconfigure the whole 61pt AF system, since its a smaller image circle they are dealing with. It may well end up as a 41pt AF system (removing all the outside points), but with all cross-point or mainly cross-point. A stop improvement on the sensor would be nice as well.

Give it the same build quality, a better sensor, faster, better AF, and it sounds like a win. And maybe a nice option when fall 2013 comes around

DMITPHOTO

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2012, 01:48:33 PM »
With Canon I guess you should always wait for a camera! I bought the 5d3 when it first came out but come on canon, this is pretty much the 5d3 with 10fps and 2 more mp.... And I'm guessing this camera will be in the 2,000-2,500$ range :(! If the 7d and below are supposed to be more entry/mid level pro dslr's why are they making them just like the 1dx etc??? And their usually way cheaper in price :((

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2012, 01:52:14 PM »
The current 7D is still usable at 3200 ISO, if you use raw and some NR in f.i. LR afterwards imho...
Oh, I agree, but, the 1DX gets about the same results at 25600; it basically is a full 4 stops better than the 7D sensor. Which is understandable when you consider one is a 3yr old APS-C sensor and the other is the top of the line full-frame sensor.

The 7D is only usable at ISO 3200 if you have enough light...in the kind of light you would normally use it under, ISO 3200 is where the 7D falls off the cliff (or, perhaps better put...climbs the "Cliffs of Noise" with gusto). Its barely usable under good circumstances, but generally speaking if you have to take a shot at ISO 3200, it requires more than just a bit of NR in LR to really clean up properly...and it has the tendency to eat useful detail for breakfast. I've resorted to using a negative sharpness and positive NR brush in LR to paint away background noise in my photographs when I have to use ISO 3200 (and ISO 2000, which is also pretty bad due to the insane way Canon handles ISO settings.)

There isn't much Canon can really do about this in the grand scheme of things.  I think the 7D has a Q.E. of 41%. Canon would need to do something to bring that number above 50% to get competitive and start to reduce noise problems at high ISO. The 5D III reached 49% Q.E., but it has a larger pixel, and on top of that Canon had to cheat to achieve that (with weaker blue and red filters in the sensor CFA ). A backilluminated sensor design might be able to bring Q.E. up to 55% or more, in which case Canon might actually be able to make ISO 3200 and possibly even 6400 usable on a 7D II, with 12800 and 25600 behaving much like 3200 and 6400 to on the 7D I today. Assuming they can actually improve Q.E. enough to realize some worthwhile gains.



Regardless, a 7D II with the listed specs will never compete with the 1D X. There are many significant differences, not the least of which is frame rate (the big selling point of Canon's high-end line). On that front, the 7D was released against the 1D III and 1D IV models, which had 10fps where as the 7D had 8fps. Thats a difference of two FPS, which is the same difference between a 10fps 7D and the 12fps 1D X (or, for those who are able to use mirror lockup, 14fps). The 1D X has a far superior metering system that is tied in with the AF system. It has superior weathersealing. The list goes on. Megapixels is only one of many factors, and the 1D X sensor will have FAR larger pixels than a 24mp APS-C, giving it a significant Q.E. edge...which is why it performs so well up to ISO 51200.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 01:54:06 PM by jrista »

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2012, 01:52:14 PM »

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2012, 01:58:34 PM »
I agree with everything you said.  In real life, though, is ISO 25600 REALLY useable on the 1DX?  I was shooting soccer Saturday night and images where I used that setting are not useable at all.  In fact, I noticed on the 1DX the higher the ISO from 10,000 and above, the worse the highlights got blown out.  However, I agree with your assessment regarding the 7D.  THAT for sure needs improvement.
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2012, 02:19:50 PM »
I agree with everything you said.  In real life, though, is ISO 25600 REALLY useable on the 1DX?  I was shooting soccer Saturday night and images where I used that setting are not useable at all.  In fact, I noticed on the 1DX the higher the ISO from 10,000 and above, the worse the highlights got blown out.  However, I agree with your assessment regarding the 7D.  THAT for sure needs improvement.

Well, I am not sure how one might define "usable". ;P You lose about 1 stop of dynamic range for every stop of higher ISO. If at ISO 100 the 1D X gets the same 11.7 stops as the 5D III...then you lose as much as 8 stops of DR by the time you ready ISO 25600 (lets say 7.5 stops, as its not always a full stop depending on exactly where the "real" ISO level falls.) If you start with 11.7 at ISO 100, then you have a mere 4.2 stops on average (and 3.7 at worst) by the time you hit ISO 25600. As far as I know, thats simply a matter of physics, and not much you can really do about it.

However, read noise at that high of an ISO setting is going to be pretty much nil (its around 2.5-3 electrons worth in most Canon cameras at ISO settings above ISO 400). At that level, its the same as Sony Exmor sensors at ISO 100 (which fall around 3e- read noise). As such, you should be able to underexpose slightly to preserve the highlights, and have the ability to recover whatever shadow detail there is without experiencing pattern noise introduced by the electronics...unless your lifting by several stops. Again, as a matter of physics, the shadows at such a high ISO setting will contain low, "shotty" detail...in that the physical nature of light will dominate, and its pretty much random hit or miss whether a pixel actually receives enough photons to even register a minimal signal or not.

It wouldn't matter if it was a Sony Exmor sensor either...at this level, your battling physics. The results will be roughly the same. The only way to really improve the performance of such high ISO settings is to radically improve quantum efficiency (Q.E.). An increase of 10% is barely going to do much, so were talking some radical improvements....backillumnated full-frame sensors, thermal cooling to -80C, and more precise manufacturing with higher-grade materials (copper wiring, silver interconnects, etc.) At 80%+ Q.E., ISO 25600 might actually become "really usable" as you put it...but you would be paying in first born children (AND the gold spun from straw that you got in return for the child), a few arms & legs, and perhaps an organ or two to own such a gem in the first place (at least, until full-frame backilluminated sensor design and thermoelectric cooling efficient enough to achieve -80C in a consumer device became "cost effective"...) ;)

All things being equal, 4+ stops of DR at ISO 25600 seems fairly usable to me, considering that you have the option in the first place to cover your ass in the event that you actually need it. In the sample photos I've seen of ISO 3200, 6400, and even 12800 from the 1D X, the results are phenomenal, and contain far less noise than my 7D does at 1600!!

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2012, 02:19:50 PM »