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Author Topic: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]  (Read 34451 times)

Bosman

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2012, 04:52:21 PM »
No way that's going to happen, 7D would be better than 5D3 in specs but without FF sensor.
But if it so, definitely going to upgrade.

Well, the 7D was better than the 5D2 except for its sensor. No reason the 7D2 couldn't be better than the 5D3 in the same way.
I can only imagine the only thing it will be better at is FPS and possibly tracking...Maybe give it 1dx af system but with fewer points. Else, it won't touch a 5dm3 in my opinion but then we shall see.
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2012, 04:52:21 PM »

funkboy

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2012, 05:56:38 PM »
You lose about 1 stop of dynamic range for every stop of higher ISO.

DXOMark indicates that that's a bit of an oversimplification... Taking the example of the humble G1X (the most recent non-FF Canon for which DXO has measurements), after ISO1600 it does indeed lose a little less than a stop of DR per stop of ISO, but below that the ratio is far from linear (the DR at ISO1600 is only a little over a stop less than the DR at ISO100).

If the 4/3ish G1X has almost 10 EV of DR at ISO1600 then an APS-C 7D replacement should fare far better...

jrista

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #77 on: August 20, 2012, 06:43:29 PM »
Okay, that makes sense.  However, these were field shots at a soccer game under lights and ISO 25,600 is so grainy and noisy that when you apply sufficient NR, the faces and soccer ball are blurry, which I cannot have.  That's why I was saying in this case that the photos were unusable.  I suppose when you have more, even lighting it is different.  The shadows are actually really, really bad.  I think the problem is that this "ISO advantage" is based more upon specs and even lit situations, vs. real-life harsh situations.

I don't think you would need to open wide up to f/2.8 though. You should only need to open up one more stop to f/4.5, and drop to ISO 12800. You would have over 5 stops of DR at that point, and less noise, without a huge loss to DOF, which should change things considerably.

I'm curious what the full camera settings were. I've browsed through quite a few sample shots from the 1D X at high ISO, and what your describing is rather surprising. The only thing that I can think of is that you were shooting at REALLY high shutter speeds, and were simply not getting enough light down the lens. And, if that were the case, I would actually recommend using ISO 51200 for better results. If you can't get enough light down the lens, a higher ISO setting, even if its the maximum, will almost always be better than shooting with the wrong settings, as photon shot noise will completely dominate. Also, keep in mind, "noise" at ISO settings as high as this is all relative. The noise on the 1D X at ISO 25600 is only going to be "relatively less" than noise on an older Canon one to two stops lower. For example, the noise on the 1D X at 25600 is probably similar to noise on the 5D II or 1Ds III at ISO 6400...thats still a lot of noise, its just that relatively speaking, its lower than the noise would be if either of those two cameras were actually capable of ISO 25600.

That's exactly it.  I was shooting at 1/640s and for soccer, that was still a bit slow.  Next time I will accept the low light and open up the aperture, and just realize that I'll have to go for specific player shots, as DOF will be limited.  I was 1/640s at f/6.3, ISO 25,600.  In the future, when it gets that dark, I'll use wider aperture values, and I'm not afraid to go all the way to f/2.8.  The point is, in my kitchen shooting at ISO 25,600 I could clean up, but out in real life on the field, it didn't work out so nicely.

In your kitchen, your subjects are probably only a few feet away. Out on a soccer field, your subjects are probably ten times as far away. Remember, light has an inverse square falloff...even if its a bright light source, on the field that light has to travel from the bulb to the subject, then from the subject to the camera. Our eyes adjust automatically, however cameras are fixed devices. A soccer field is not a particularly bright place in the grand scheme of things. The difference between f/2.8 and f/6.3 is more than two stops, or more than a four-fold difference in light let down the lens. If you simply double your aperture to f/4.5, that alone would probably do wonders (either you could drop to ISO 12800 and get more DR, or keep using 25600 and get a more saturated shot.)

I agree that all of this is true.  Which simply bolsters my point about shooting night soccer at ISO 25600 with a 1DX.  It's beyond lab tests and spec sheets.

You might actually benefit from ISO 51200 if your having so much trouble. I was wrong before about DR...I forgot that Canon sensors are actually chopping off about two stops on the low ISO end, so you would have around 6 stops at ISO 25600, and 5 stops at ISO 51200. When you can't get enough light down the lens, the best thing to do is increase ISO and maximize exposure (without blowing highlights...something the 1D X with its RGB metering sensor should be able to handle with ease, and possibly a -1/3rd stop EC when your photographing white jerseys and the like.)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 08:29:43 PM by jrista »
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jrista

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #78 on: August 20, 2012, 06:46:57 PM »
You lose about 1 stop of dynamic range for every stop of higher ISO.

DXOMark indicates that that's a bit of an oversimplification... Taking the example of the humble G1X (the most recent non-FF Canon for which DXO has measurements), after ISO1600 it does indeed lose a little less than a stop of DR per stop of ISO, but below that the ratio is far from linear (the DR at ISO1600 is only a little over a stop less than the DR at ISO100).

If the 4/3ish G1X has almost 10 EV of DR at ISO1600 then an APS-C 7D replacement should fare far better...

Actually, its a bit different with Canon's, and I forgot to take the issue into account. Canon sensors become read-noise bound by ISO 400, and at ISO 200 and 100 they don't really gain any additional DR. So you actually start losing about 1 stop from ISO 400, meaning 1 stop at ISO 800, 2 at 1600, 3/3200, 4/6400, 5/12800, 6/25600. That would leave you with about 6 stops of DR at ISO 25600, not 4.2 stops. Apologies for the confusion.
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hmmm

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« Reply #79 on: August 20, 2012, 07:25:21 PM »
Got to thinking about this -- maybe the 70D will be an announcement for a product shipping the 4th quarter, and the 7D mkII will be announced at the same time but will ship in 1Q13.  The 7D firmware upgrade would then serve as a bit of a bridge to help the 7D upgrader hold out for the more expensive 7D mkII.    From that point of view the  7D firmware upgrade and the 7D mkII sooner rather than later make sense.

Here's to a dual announcement for the 70D and 7D mk II !


bdunbar79

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #80 on: August 20, 2012, 07:27:02 PM »
jrista,

I got ya now.  I'm willing to avoid that high of an ISO value, now that we know it's limitations in that particular setting.  I'm totally comfortable shooting at f/4 down to f/3.2 if need be.  I'd rather open up than raise the ISO for sure.  Thanks for your explanations.

Sorry I seemed to have changed the thread :)
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pj1974

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #81 on: August 20, 2012, 07:48:50 PM »
Ok... quote from the original post:

1) 24MP – an all new sensor with phase AF on chip and noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP.
2) 1Dx/5D3 based AF system.
3) 10 FPS.
4) ISO 100-25600.
5) High speed video, with still capture.
6) Improved durability and sealing.
7) Available this year.


My reflection and take on the above, using the numbering I've given:
1) 18MP is great for me. I'd rather have lower noise than more MP. Phase AF on chip sounds good!
2) The current 19pt AF system works very well for me. Ok - extra AF points = handy (I like wide frame coverage)
3) 10FPS. Nice. As long as I can choose eg 3fps, 5fps, 8fps and 10fps. But 8fps is enough.
4) I rarely go above ISO3200 if I can help it, due to current noise levels @ high ISOs.
5) Handy for some, but something I would only use it once in a blue moon.
6) I'm really happy with the current build quality. If shutter can be more durable, that's good!
7) Nice... so by the time I want to replace my current 7D, the price might be lower.

I think it's clear from the above that I think the current 7D is already an awesome camera. If they can improve on it in some of the ways (particularly IQ) - that would be a bonus. I bought the 7D soon after it was announced and available.

Over several years I have enjoyed taking lots of photos - mainly landscape, wildlife (including birds) and macro- while also doing ad-hoc event photography (eg camps, church events, family occasions, etc).  I aim to keep doing so with whatever camera/s and lens/es I own and use! Roll on improvements - all the more benefit for us photographers!

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #81 on: August 20, 2012, 07:48:50 PM »

jrista

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #82 on: August 20, 2012, 08:41:01 PM »
1) 18MP is great for me. I'd rather have lower noise than more MP. Phase AF on chip sounds good!

Just out of curiosity, how would you use FPPD (Focal Plane Phase Detection) AF with a 7D-type camera? The value of FPPD is in Live View and Video...however if your shooting things through the viewfinder, a dedicated AF sensor is not only essential, its also probably going to be more accurate as it can be fine tuned to various apertures (such as the center five double cross type points at f/2.8, and the cross type points nearer to the edge of the AF grid that are sensitive down to f/5.6, of Canon's new 61pt AF sensor.) If you shoot a lot of video with the 7D (which I find curious...I'd definitely prefer something in the 5D line myself for video) then I could understand the value of FPPD in a DSLR...but its rather immature technology and due for a lot of refinement and perfection before I would trust it for full blown low-light AF acquisition and tracking like a dedicated AF sensor is capable of.

2) The current 19pt AF system works very well for me. Ok - extra AF points = handy (I like wide frame coverage)

As for the current 19 AF points of the 7D, they are certainly better than Canon's ubiquitous 9pt systems, but rather vastly inferior to a reticular AF system...either the Nikon 51pt system or Canon's 61pt system are so much better, particularly for multi-point tracking, than the 19pt system with all the unused space between each point. Its not just about frame coverage, although that is certainly nice...its about density...and the 7D is certainly lacking against both the new entries in Canons pro line as well as quite a few bodies from Nikon's cameras released over the last few years.


3) 10FPS. Nice. As long as I can choose eg 3fps, 5fps, 8fps and 10fps. But 8fps is enough.

Not sure I agree 8fps is enough...there are plenty of times that I've shot BIF and other bird moments (and even wildlife) in action and missed the best moment, as it was between frames. Wouldn't have that problem with 10fps, at least not as much. Totally agree about being able to configure the low speed AF mode.
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bdunbar79

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2012, 11:18:27 PM »
A 7D successor is coming. I am convinced. Especially after seeing that Camerashops are offering the current 7D with a present (like a Wacom tablet) I do believe they do that to get rid of their stock samples.

I hope the 7D MKII will inherit the 61-AF
- 61-point AF with up to 41 cross-type AF points
- ISO up to 25600 and Less high ISO noise at 6400 (would be great if that would be even 12800)
- dual slots

I don't mind keeping 18 megapixels and same framerate as now.

I think that at the end , the 7D MKII willl be positioned where the 1D MKIV is now and replace this camera. So no more x1.3 but only x1.0 and x1.6 (as where the 7D MKII is the top of the APS-C line)

I can't make any sense of this whatsoever.
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dlleno

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2012, 11:38:29 PM »
No way that's going to happen, 7D would be better than 5D3 in specs but without FF sensor.
But if it so, definitely going to upgrade.

Well, the 7D was better than the 5D2 except for its sensor. No reason the 7D2 couldn't be better than the 5D3 in the same way.
I can only imagine the only thing it will be better at is FPS and possibly tracking...Maybe give it 1dx af system but with fewer points. Else, it won't touch a 5dm3 in my opinion but then we shall see.

yea, and the 5d3 AF ,by itself, is no slouch and a reasonably capable sports body in its own right.   to avoid being a yawn, 7d2 will have to improve upon the 7D in a way similar to the 5D3/5D2. theres no way, imho, Canon can meet the rumored specs in this thread without an H sensor... oh dear did I just open that can again?

Richard8971

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2012, 12:29:39 AM »
Seems logical to me, even if the camera will come out next year. These specs lend themself to the fact that even IF the 70D is released, it will surpass the 70D and remain the king of ASP-C! The 70D will likely be 20-22 MP and 6-8 FPS, if Canon makes the 70D! :)

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2012, 12:42:55 AM »
Sounds good to me...   I'll believe the "noticeably lower noise than the current 18MP," when I see the RAW files, and not a moment sooner.   ::)

I'd believe it without seeing the RAW files. I can't stand the noise levels of the 18MP sensor. I've mentioned that before on CR, and the 7D fanboy brigade got sand in their crevices and claimed that the 7D was the equal of the 5D Mark II, and really the noise was due to my lack of photo taking abilities and understanding of the gear, irrespective of the fact that I was talking about base ISO in ideal conditions for the 7D (lots of light, high quality glass, tripod, perfectly sharp aperture). I pity the fools.

candyman

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2012, 01:00:02 AM »
A 7D successor is coming. I am convinced. Especially after seeing that Camerashops are offering the current 7D with a present (like a Wacom tablet) I do believe they do that to get rid of their stock samples.

I hope the 7D MKII will inherit the 61-AF
- 61-point AF with up to 41 cross-type AF points
- ISO up to 25600 and Less high ISO noise at 6400 (would be great if that would be even 12800)
- dual slots

I don't mind keeping 18 megapixels and same framerate as now.

I think that at the end , the 7D MKII willl be positioned where the 1D MKIV is now and replace this camera. So no more x1.3 but only x1.0 and x1.6 (as where the 7D MKII is the top of the APS-C line)

I can't make any sense of this whatsoever.

Neither can I, so help me here....
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 01:22:52 AM by candyman »
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2012, 01:00:02 AM »

anselwannab

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2012, 01:35:25 AM »
A 7D successor is coming. I am convinced. Especially after seeing that Camerashops are offering the current 7D with a present (like a Wacom tablet) I do believe they do that to get rid of their stock samples.

I hope the 7D MKII will inherit the 61-AF
- 61-point AF with up to 41 cross-type AF points
- ISO up to 25600 and Less high ISO noise at 6400 (would be great if that would be even 12800)
- dual slots

I don't mind keeping 18 megapixels and same framerate as now.

I think that at the end , the 7D MKII willl be positioned where the 1D MKIV is now and replace this camera. So no more x1.3 but only x1.0 and x1.6 (as where the 7D MKII is the top of the APS-C line)

I can't make any sense of this whatsoever.

Neither can I, so help me here....

I think what you are saying is that just as people compare rough feature sets of the 7D and the MKIII, the 7DII will have a feature set that is close to the MkIV.  Those two camera sets also seem to have similar price points to the comparable cameras.  $1500 for the 7D and MKIII and the IV seems to be moving towards the probably intro price of a 7DII.

Forgive me if I have mistranslated, the I see the concept of a symmetry in Canon's movements, so I might not be correct.

candyman

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2012, 01:43:31 AM »
On the other hand, Canon (and Nikon) seems to be reshuffling line-ups all over, so perhaps the 7Dmk2 will instead be targeted at landscape and macro photographers? :-)

-h

I hope not. I like to have a sports/BIF camera in the APS-C segment.
 
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specs? [CR1]
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2012, 01:43:31 AM »