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Author Topic: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond  (Read 8307 times)

motorhead

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2011, 07:28:23 AM »
The word "photography" covers an enormous range subjects, interests, disciplines and so depending on an individuals special interests, I well understand that there will be differences of emphasis (I was about to write opinion, but that in itself is argumentative). In fact that's one of the things I like about it, its sheer diversity.

My own thinking is based on the fact that digital photography is still at the nappy stage and growing fast. Nothing will stop that, it's inevitable. Come back in 50 years and we could have an informed discussion on where it goes from that point, but right now anyone trying to stop the technology maturing is on a hiding to nothing. The typical dSLR is still a direct descendant of the film SLR at the moment. While there are signs that this might be about to change it's still not certain.

Unlike a lot of others, I look forward to the day when I have image files of 1000mb or more with DR that is twice as good as film ever was. We are certainly not at a digital  "Golden Age" right now so even if it was possible I for one do not want to stop the clock and don't understand others who do.

Due to commercial realities Nikon have been at the mercy of a  third party sensor manufacture and despite having one hand tied behind their back have played the cards they have been dealt very well. But I am prepared to bet that in reality Nikon would give give their eye teeth to have Canons sensor design and manufacturing facilities at their disposal.       

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2011, 07:28:23 AM »

Orangutan

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2011, 09:59:33 AM »
J. McCabe:

According to Microsoft, you've got a few more years of "extended support" for Windows XP, so you won't be compelled to upgrade before the next body is released.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycle#section_2

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Nikon has lower resolution FF bodies

Their most most recent crop-sensor bodies seem to be trending closer to Canon's 18MP.

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the low res D3S was released *after* the high res D3X

Pure speculation on my part, but I've seen suggestions on various web sites that the CCD sensors Nikon uses take longer to read and clear than Canon's CMOS sensors.  It's possible they went lower res because the need for a sports-oriented, higher frame-rate body compelled them to.  We just won't know until the D4- series.

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What I have is...

That's a pretty solid computer, certainly more powerful than what I built for myself less than a year a go.  Of course, you can only use 3.25GB RAM under Windows XP/32-bit, but that's still pretty good.

DxO must really eat RAM if that's not enough for a 30MP sensor!  What I mean is that if you convert the RAW file to a full 16-bit per channel image it will take just 180MB to hold the full image.  Your current rig should be able to handle that easily.  If you've also got Photoshop open,well, that might be different...it does seem to be a memory pig.  Of course, you could test your system's performance by creating a stitched image to test its handling of 30MP and 50MP images.

Regarding PC costs: I tend to buy less expensive hardware so I can upgrade it more often.  If you look at the price/performance curve of various components, there tends to be a gentle grade until you hit the newer/high-performance/gamer-oriented products, at which point the curve heads sharply upward.  I tend to buy components right before the sharp price increase.  For example, I assembled an Athlon II-based system with 8GB ECC RAM, and mirrored 2-TB drives for less than $700.  At that price I can afford to upgrade in 3 years ($232 per year) , possibly 2 ($350 per year).  At that time, I expect components will be much faster and much cheaper still.  I'd rather buy inexpensive, modest-performance computer components every 2-3 years, than a top-of-the-line system every 4-5 years.

I wish you well with your decisions; at least you have some time to think about it before Windows XP goes off support.


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awinphoto

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2011, 11:23:58 AM »
J McCabe, i understand your frustration about the cost of computer equipment and camera gear.  Heck, at my firm, when i am requesting new gear and or computers I practically got to write entire proposals just to get the budget approved for the gear.  It gets even harder at home trying to convince my wife, but, at the end of the day, this is a very exciting time to be a photographer and in technology.  Anyone who thinks a new computer now will be relevant or even usable in 5-10 years have to be kidding themselves given how quickly technology is changing.  5 years ago a 1 gig CF card almost cost me close to $100, now I can pick up that same one off of ebay or any other retailers for maybe $10-15.  Things are getting cheaper but more expensive at the same time.  I understand its tough to keep up with costs and expanding technology, to fight it, it's almost futile. 

If you want to switch over to nikon, sony, fuji or whatever, feel free, no one is holding your feet to the fire, but for me, professionally, I know that while I do not need the size 90% of the time that my cameras can deliver, I know i've got it in my back pocket for the few times I do need it.  When I had the 30D and 40D, I used to upscale prints when I needed to do my magazine ads for double page spreads, but with the 7D and 5D, I know I can shoot the same image with no upscale needed at 300 dpi. 

Most people dont need, want, or wish to shoot professionally, however it's good to have that option when you need it.  And when you dont, you dont need to shoot at full Raw or Full size jpeg... It is what it is. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2011, 11:27:38 AM »
Orangutan

Quote
Quote
Nikon has lower resolution FF bodies

Their most most recent crop-sensor bodies seem to be trending closer to Canon's 18MP.

I've heard somewhere that Nikon lost a lot of sales due to it's lower resolution sensors. I don't know what Nikon (or Canon) is going to do, which is why I have to wait and see.

Quote
Quote
the low res D3S was released *after* the high res D3X

Pure speculation on my part, but I've seen suggestions on various web sites that the CCD sensors Nikon uses take longer to read and clear than Canon's CMOS sensors.  It's possible they went lower res because the need for a sports-oriented, higher frame-rate body compelled them to.  We just won't know until the D4- series.

Both the D3S and the D3X have CMOS sensors.

Quote
Quote
What I have is...

That's a pretty solid computer, certainly more powerful than what I built for myself less than a year a go.  Of course, you can only use 3.25GB RAM under Windows XP/32-bit, but that's still pretty good.

DxO must really eat RAM if that's not enough for a 30MP sensor!

It can only fully defish one EF 15mm photo at a time for the 21MP 5Dmk2, and other options can process two photos at a time. According to DxO support, the limitation is RAM, due to photo size.

Quote
What I mean is that if you convert the RAW file to a full 16-bit per channel image it will take just 180MB to hold the full image.  Your current rig should be able to handle that easily.  If you've also got Photoshop open,well, that might be different...it does seem to be a memory pig.

I have no idea why DxO requires that much memory. I've contacted DxO tech support a couple of times, and the guy said the numbers above are as much as I can get from my computer. Note the following quote from the DxO web site:

"Memory necessary:
2 Gigabytes of RAM (3 Gigabytes of RAM is recommended for processing images taken with cameras having a sensor size greater than 20 Megapixels)."

Quote
I wish you well with your decisions; at least you have some time to think about it before Windows XP goes off support.

Thank you.

J. McCabe

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2011, 11:54:05 AM »
J McCabe, i understand your frustration about the cost of computer equipment and camera gear.  Heck, at my firm, when i am requesting new gear and or computers I practically got to write entire proposals just to get the budget approved for the gear.  It gets even harder at home trying to convince my wife, but, at the end of the day, this is a very exciting time to be a photographer and in technology. ... 5 years ago a 1 gig CF card almost cost me close to $100, now I can pick up that same one off of ebay or any other retailers for maybe $10-15.  Things are getting cheaper but more expensive at the same time.  I understand its tough to keep up with costs and expanding technology, to fight it, it's almost futile. 

The point is 1GB CF cards are going very quickly the way of the 3.5" floppies, and one of the reasons is resolution getting higher and higher.

but for me, professionally

My needs, professionaly, differ.

CR Backup Admin

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2011, 12:17:18 PM »
Right now, a Kingston 133X compact flash 4GB card sells for $14.99 including shipping at newegg.com.  Prices have really dropped.  It might be more expensive to buy a 1GB card than this one.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134575&Tpk=kingston%204gb%20133X

NormanBates

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2011, 03:46:18 PM »
I know a guy who, a long, long, long time ago, spent 600eur on a 1GB CF card

I'm buying a CF card next week, and I'm choosing between two transcend 133x cards: 16GB for 34eur, or 32GB for 58eur
http://www.alternate.es/html/product/Sticks_y_memorias_CompactFlash_I/Transcend/Tarjeta_CompactFlash/235247/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Tarjetas+de+memoria&l2=CompactFlash+I
http://www.alternate.es/html/product/Sticks_y_memorias_CompactFlash_I/Transcend/CompactFlash_Card/266453/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Tarjetas+de+memoria&l2=CompactFlash+I

there's a lot of things you need in order to take pictures, along with your camera and lenses; just go with it and be glad that they're getting cheaper and better by the minute

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2011, 03:46:18 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2011, 04:01:20 PM »
The argument that about prices aren't all that valid since you can pick up drives and cards for a song and a dance now.  I understand you don't want to have to upgrade, to each their own, but as a previous person said about consumable goods and photography, that has always been a part of photography and still is. Regarding not needing it, I don't know about your needs and business motto, if your professional, amateur, or a hobbyist, however I know with my clients, I constantly try to keep on top of trends so I can always offer my clients anything they can ask for so I never have to tell them, sorry I can't do that... 

I know my needs aren't your needs however with the increasing quality of tools, why fight it and embrace it?  For all you know if you primarily sell 8x10's you can start pitching 11x14, 16x20 or larger and make even more money than before. All the costs would be recouped and you can be more profitable. I may be wrong but I don't see that as a bad thing.


J McCabe, i understand your frustration about the cost of computer equipment and camera gear.  Heck, at my firm, when i am requesting new gear and or computers I practically got to write entire proposals just to get the budget approved for the gear.  It gets even harder at home trying to convince my wife, but, at the end of the day, this is a very exciting time to be a photographer and in technology. ... 5 years ago a 1 gig CF card almost cost me close to $100, now I can pick up that same one off of ebay or any other retailers for maybe $10-15.  Things are getting cheaper but more expensive at the same time.  I understand its tough to keep up with costs and expanding technology, to fight it, it's almost futile. 

The point is 1GB CF cards are going very quickly the way of the 3.5" floppies, and one of the reasons is resolution getting higher and higher.

but for me, professionally

My needs, professionaly, differ.
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

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Re: Diffraction, MP and the great beyond
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2011, 04:01:20 PM »