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Author Topic: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera  (Read 14191 times)

imagequest

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EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« on: April 22, 2011, 05:21:10 PM »
This is a wish list--I hope Canon is reading.
There are a lot of reasons for Canon to come out with a new HD camera.  I remember the impact of the XL1.  Standard Definition, but a game changer.  The versatililty, the image and audio quality were, for the time and the investment, unsurpassed, and gave the new user like me the ability to tell stories with professional competence.  Thank you, Canon!
Now comes high definition.  After the Nikon 720P DSLR, Canon really opened up the HD cinemagraphic arena with the 5D MkII, which made affordable, for the first time, low light and shallow DOF 1080P video.  There are issues, but at their best the 5D MkII and the 7D were on the verge of redefining access to all the storytelling tricks and tools of the so-called "big boys" with the 8 figure budgets.
If Canon, in their (Bless them) conservative way, comes out with a video form-factor large sensor HD camera, what would be the benefits (to all)?
I have 3 Canon cameras, a 1999 XL1 (SD video), a EOS 30D (8 MP stills), and an excellent HV-30 (HD video/ 3MP stills) travel cam.  I love the warm saturation of the images (a Canon thing?)  As both an aspiring cinematographer (moving images) and an aspiring still photographer (gasp!!--why is there a conflict there?), I would love to leverage my limited purchasing power to be able to buy good lenses to support both endeavors.  The ideal Canon video camera would have the ability to mount powered zoom/IS lenses and use the best Canon L series glass, with a sensor optimized for video that has good low light and shallow DOF capabilities, when combined with premium (fast) glass.  Help me help you, guys!  I don't think Sony or Panasonic should have all the answers in affordable HD video.  With common glass, I will be motivated to purchase both HD and still bodies and premium lenses from Canon.  Thank you.

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EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« on: April 22, 2011, 05:21:10 PM »

transpo1

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2011, 02:30:21 AM »
I'm actually looking forward to a much improved 5DIII for video more than a camcorder w/large sensor form factor, and I'm a video guy. I love the DSLR form factor- it feels much more natural to me than a camcorder and you are able to make them virtually anything you want using add-ons.

Reading in between the lines from Shane Hurlbut and others, Canon seems to understand the value of the HDSLR form factor and seem to be committed to improving it, but only time will tell.

All of this being said, I would be VERY interested in a Canon Super 35mm camcorder IF it shot 4K or 5K to compete with RED. I wouldn't blow $7,000-12,000 on a camera that only shot in 2k HD, no matter how big the sensor. Hopefully Canon realizes that greater than 2k is the future and gets ahead of the other big video manufacturers (Sony, Panasonic).

gibbygoo

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2011, 07:40:23 PM »
I agree. Vaporware aside, a $7K trumped up video-capable 2k DSLR is not going to pass mustard with me when the Red Epic is already out and the more affordable Scarlet is now less of a pipe dream. I actually got to handle one at NAB. It's for real, this time...and the price is right, even at $15K I would jump on it.

SergeSmArt

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2011, 07:22:08 AM »
After I read and see a lot of samples from new Panasonic AF 100, Sony F3, and Sony FS 100 camcorders ( http://vimeo.com/23294197 )  I wonder - Why Canon do nothing like it?? 
I have two of Canon 5D Mark II cameras, bunch of lenses, and tons of additional equipment as Kessler Crane, RIGs, tripods, Dollyes, Skater, Spider and Slider, Steadycam, flex track ets...  What do I have to do? Sell all my Canon gear and go with Sony FS100?? 
Canon have to understand: even I'm not so picky to camcorders in general, I'm in the MARKET, and I have to stay competitive!!  :( 
I was thinkig of new camcorder from Canon, as small as Sony FS100, but  with UNIC sensor size: 15.3 X36mm , 2523X1080 resolution, and 2.35:1 Aspect Ratio, with this as "Cinema" mode, and crop on sides to 1920 X1080 as "TV mode".. here the picture: 



This sensor with BIG pixels give us fantastic image quality, huge DD, perfect Aspect Ratio for Cinematic filming, and will covered by any Canon L-lenses... I don't see any problems for Canon make this camera with new processors fast enough to have any fps up to 60, even with this sensora size :) ... and I fill like no one else can produce this size sensor, only Canon ! :)

(Sorry for my English.. my Russian is much better ! :) )

imagequest

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 01:50:05 PM »
After Transpo1 mentioned Shane Hurlbut (thank you!), I went on the B&H Audiovideo website and watched the excellent series of DSLR instructional videos that Mr. Hurlbut has there on using DSLRs for shooting cinema.  I have never used a DSLR for video, but from watching the videos and reading other blogs and reviews on the subject, I have gleaned the following needs for a large sensor HD video camera that are not adequately addressed on the current crop of DSLRs, if they are to be considered more versatile in HD production.

1)  The ability to shoot continuously if needed (i.e., for events, lectures, etc).  The present Canon DSLRs are limited to 8-12 minutes of continuous shooting, and, I believe, do not have multiple cards or hot swapping ability.  Mr. Hurlbut also mentions IQ degrading as the camera heats up (more noise).

2)  Output through HDMI is often limited to SD or 8 bit and does not allow off-camera capture of HD to the higher quality that the sensor is capable of.  HDMI is also not as secure a connector as HDSDI, so the likelihood of losing your cable feed during shooting to a remote capture device or external monitor (or both) is an issue.

3)  Shane Hurlbut mentions in the DSLR videos that he captures sound separately from the 5D MkII, so that gets around the lack of professional balanced audio inputs like stereo XLR jacks that dedicated video cameras typically have.  In a studio or location setting with relatively short takes and a bigger crew, separate sound is more practical, and the sync issues can be resolved with clap boards or other tried and true methods.  For a more general  camera with only one shooter that becomes impractical.  I do not know if the DSLR audio circuitry itself is up to the better sound with, for instance, a Beachtek-type adapter that has dual XLR jacks, or not.

4)  Finally, focus pulling is also much easier with a larger crew and cinema-style lenses that have repeatable distance readings on the side of the lens, where the focus puller usually is situated.  Otherwise, power zooms with good focus assist or decent autofocus are helpful sometimes.  I have heard from professional editors that a lot of DSLR HD video footage comes in badly out of focus ( a problem that HD accentuates, anyway).

Thank you, contributors, for your great comments!

gene_can_sing

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 04:40:04 PM »
For video, Canon just needs to come out with SOMETHING, Anything that addresses it short comings.

I bought into the whole 7D HD large sensor, interchangeable lens thing a few years ago. I knew the shortcoming (Moire), but I figured Canon knew about the issue also and would just fix it in the next release since it was such a major and well documented problem. 3 Cameras later (t21, 60d, t3i), still NOT fixed.

I've invested over 10K in Canon gear. Canon owes it to the customers who have supported them by releasing cameras that address current problems.

STOP milking us Canon. We are tired of it. For while, you guys were the only real game in town in the affordable HD market, but now Sony and Panasonic have surpassed you. Start doing something or soon, people will be forced to sell everything Canon and jump ship.

Macadameane

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 08:54:33 PM »
Pixel Binning will be a must to realistically fix these issues.  Crossing my fingers that the 5D3 will have it

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 08:54:33 PM »

SergeSmArt

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 04:19:19 PM »
Start doing something or soon, people will be forced to sell everything Canon and jump ship.
We are ready FORSED !! :( .. look at this ad from Craigslist:
----------------
Date: 2011-05-10, 3:32PM EDT
"We have a short film we are looking to shoot in the couple weeks. Budget, actors, and locations are in place, we are trying to find a DP with equipment and a reliable team.
Must have a professional quality large sensor camera with appropriate lenses and kit.
NO DSLRs!!! THAT MEANS NO CANON 5D OR 7Ds. We are looking for something along the lines of the AF100, F3, or RED in quality."
PostingID: 2373391231
--------------------
.."Mr. Canon" - WHAT do I have to do now??   :(   Jump to AF100, or F3 ??
------------------
 as I show above,  my idea about Canon "Cinema" sensor, size: 15.3 X36mm , 2523X1080 resolution, and 2.35:1 Aspect Ratio, with this as "Cinema" mode, and crop on sides to 1920 X1080 as "TV mode"..give Canon a chance to go OVER anyone else!! .. not just to do the same..  :) 

if we compare it to Sony Exmor Super35 Sensor to in "Cinema" mode with 2.35:1 Aspect Ratio difference will be HUGE:   

Click on picture to better see it ... .. with this HUGE pixel size we can have good DD, low nose in high ISO and more details, than any other company able to produce!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 11:22:28 PM by SergeSmArt »

NormanBates

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2011, 04:17:30 AM »
just make sure you get as many photosites as you need

the only reason I'm fine with your proposed 2523x1080 sensor is that when debayered it will deliver a great 2048x858 final image

if you'd like to get any more than that, you need a higher resolution bayer pattern in the first place

SergeSmArt

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2011, 01:11:41 PM »
just make sure you get as many photosites as you need

the only reason I'm fine with your proposed 2523x1080 sensor is that when debayered it will deliver a great 2048x858 final image

if you'd like to get any more than that, you need a higher resolution bayer pattern in the first place
Would you be so kind to tell me - WHAT EXACT  BASE resolution bayer pattern must be on this 36X15.3 "Cinema" sensor to give as  a great  2523x1080 final image?? 

I'm not an engineer .. but, I hope you see that MAIN IDEA in this sensor is HIS SIZE and PROPORTION, not the resolution..
 Tell me - do you like my idea to have a sensor 36X15.3 in size with 2.35:1 aspect ratio in first place?? .. and when we need TV- style 16:9 aspect ratio image will be croped from SIDES, not from the TOP and Bottom!!

"a higher resolution bayer pattern in the first place" in not a big deal, even if each pixel will be 10-12 um, not  14 um ..it's still a lot!   I belive engineers in Canon will find out the BEST way to get the BEST image from sensor this size.. if they decide to go this way.. :)


gene_can_sing

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2011, 04:16:46 PM »
Looks like both Red Rock Micro and Birger are coming out EOS to Micro 4/3 adapters later this month. We'll see if that happens.

With Canon not looking like they're going to introduce anything for a LONG time, might go this route and pick up a Panasonic body. Apparently, both companies are also working on a EOS to Sony adapter for their new Large Chip HD cameras.

Sucks, because I love the Canon look and don't like the 2x crop of Micro 4 3, but Canon is falling so far behind. Have been waiting to be able to use Canon L lenses on other companies bodies.

NormanBates

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2011, 04:49:26 PM »
I'm no engineer either, but I understand you need a 2.5K to 3K bayer pattern to get a good 2K image, with the optimal multiplier being around 1.4x (two photosites for every final pixel); you can get a 2K image out of a 2K bayer sensor, but it will look soft

now, about building a cinemascope sensor and cropping the sides to get 16:9: I don't think it's the best option, either
the DCP (digital cinema package) standard "2K scope" resolution is 2048x858
if you design your sensor with a target 2048x1080 final image in mind, you can crop it to get sharp images at all the standard 2K-like resolutions: 2048x858, 1920x1080, 1920x816, etc
if you want to crop on the sides, you won't have a standard resolution 16:9 image, as you'd have to up-res to 1920x1080

if you still want to crop at the sides and be able to shoot at 2.35:1 and 16:9, the solution is to have more density: a 3600x1530 bayer sensor will deliver great images at 2048x858, and, cropped to 2720x1530, also at 1920x1080

in any case, it's not really that much different:
* if you build a 16:9 sensor and shoot 2.35/1, you're using 76% of the sensor area
* if you build a 2.35:1 sensor and shoot 16:9, you're using 76% of the sensor area

SergeSmArt

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2011, 06:34:56 PM »
if you still want to crop at the sides and be able to shoot at 2.35:1 and 16:9, the solution is to have more density: a 3600x1530 bayer sensor will deliver great images at 2048x858, and, cropped to 2720x1530, also at 1920x1080
Thanks.. I change my drawing a bit.. :)
Quote
in any case, it's not really that much different:
* if you build a 16:9 sensor and shoot 2.35/1, you're using 76% of the sensor area
* if you build a 2.35:1 sensor and shoot 16:9, you're using 76% of the sensor area

....Exept that 100% of 36 X15.3mm sensor is almost TWICE bigger, than 76% of Super 35 sensor in Sony F3 / FS100 cameras .. and even  in 16:9, 76% of 36 X15.3mm sensor is still BIGGER than 100% of Super 35 sensor ... :)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 07:17:59 PM by SergeSmArt »

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2011, 06:34:56 PM »

NormanBates

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 03:17:51 AM »
well, that's the thing: if you think you're going to shoot mostly for 2.35:1 (as I do), a 2.35:1 sensor makes most sense; if you think you're going to shoot mostly for 16:9 (as most people do), then a 16:9 sensor makes most sense

I totally aggree that a 36x15.3mm sensor would be awesome, I just don't expect to see it on something that is not specifically oriented to the cinematography market (and by that I mean $$$$$)

it would be really cool, though

SergeSmArt

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 05:47:00 PM »

I totally aggree that a 36x15.3mm sensor would be awesome, I just don't expect to see it on something that is not specifically oriented to the cinematography market (and by that I mean $$$$$)

it would be really cool, though

Let's asking Canon to make it to : "Independent Filmmakers on budget" !! :)
It not have to be as good as Red Epic with MYSTERIUM-X® 30mm X 15mm  sensor  with RAW option, but even motion JPG for as will be more than enough :) ... 
From my point of view this sensor will have unic option TO HAVE GOOD ASPECT RATIO AND SIZE for Cinema and still big enought in 16:9 TV-mode!! ..   
if you remember - no one was able to expect 5D-2 with that fantasic video just 2-3 years ago :) .. so Canon have to follow his tradition "TO STRESS THE MARKET" !  ;D

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Re: EOS Large Sensor HD Camera
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 05:47:00 PM »