Lenses for 1DC?

[billybob]

I need some advice on lenses for the soon to be released 1DC and couldn't find a better place on the forum to raise the issue.

My understanding was the 1DC used the EF system, so thought I would be okay choosing whatever EF lenses I liked and shooting away in 4K. But I have now learnt that actually if you're using EF Cinema zoom lenses you have to change the setting on the camera from the 4K APS-H crop to Full HD Super 35mm crop. What I need to know is what lenses can you use on the 1DC in 4K mode?

Please note that my question is deliberately broad and vague - I am not yet at the point where I want to get very specific about the glass, nor indeed specific about shooting in 4k... rather I am looking to know what range I can choose from and definitely be covered in any format on the camera.

Any input would be much appreciated!

[5D Freak]

Good question about the new "cine" lenses - does the image circle cover full frame? My gut feeling, without thorough research is that they would, given their match to equivalent focal length/apeture specs. A "t" stop (transmission equivalent to "f" stop) and focal length would lead me to believe that Canon are using existing optical tech and therefore full frame coverage. I cannot be sure. They already have an 85mm t1.6 and now a 14mm t3.1. I'm sure others can answer.

[billybob]

Mmmm... since EF lenses, not EF-S, are designed for those full frame sensors, perhaps any normal EF lenses would work fine at any resolution on the 1DC... except those zoom lenses that have been said to not work at 4k on this model... or are there other types of EF lenses that might not work?

[untitled10]

According to this they only have a super 35 coverage http://www.photographyblog.com/news/canon_cn-e15.5-47mm_t2.8_l_s_sp_cn-e30-105mm_t2.8_l_s_sp/

[preppyak]

except those zoom lenses that have been said to not work at 4k on this model

Well, these zooms are designed for an APS-C image circle, thus why you have to change to Super 35 mode. If you're in an APS-H mode using a lens designed for an APS-C image circle, you're going to get an ugly vignette. My guess is they were designed for the APS-C image circle to keep them lighter (thus the headline, "lightweight compact zooms" on the CR page)

EF lenses, being designed for a full-frame image circle, would presumably not have this issue

[Axilrod]

I'm pretty sure the cinema primes are the same as general EF lenses in terms of FOV (14mm would actually be 18.3mm on 1DC in 4k mode).  I would say you'd be ok with any EF lenses, I'd go with Zeiss ZE's honestly as they are much better suited for video, or the CP.2's if you have a huge budget.

[Videoshooter]

The Canon cinema primes should cover the  FF, since they appear to be re-housed L-primes.  The zooms however, where designed specificially for cinema use to cover a super-35 cinema sensor, so might not work on FF cameras.

All EF photo lenses (which inlcuded all L-series lenses) can be used on the 1Dc and will cover the full sensor at 4k. EF-S lenses will not work, and I'm guessing they will not even physically be capable of mounting on the 1Dc (same as with the 1Dx/5D).

[billybob]

Folks, I just have to say thanks a million because this is exactly the kind of discussion I was after.

I will be buying two lenses - one is Canon and one I would like to be Zeiss or Leica if possible although I admit there may be some romanticism or subjectivity there because we used those lenses back in film school... 

I have already chosen the Canon - it's the new wide one, the Canon CN-E 24mm T1.5 L F Cine Lens - and very happy with that decision.

I just need to choose a Zeiss or Leica now. I'd probably like something slightly less wide but still somewhat wide and with a shallow depth of field. Ideally, I would like that cinematic effect, where the foreground is sharp but quickly softens in the background.

Given my forestated concern about my lenses working in all formats on this cam, and what I am saying about Zeiss and Leica preference and shallow depth of field, any recommendations - especially from you Axilrod? 

[Axilrod]

Folks, I just have to say thanks a million because this is exactly the kind of discussion I was after.

I will be buying two lenses - one is Canon and one I would like to be Zeiss or Leica if possible although I admit there may be some romanticism or subjectivity there because we used those lenses back in film school... 

I have already chosen the Canon - it's the new wide one, the Canon CN-E 24mm T1.5 L F Cine Lens - and very happy with that decision.

I just need to choose a Zeiss or Leica now. I'd probably like something slightly less wide but still somewhat wide and with a shallow depth of field. Ideally, I would like that cinematic effect, where the foreground is sharp but quickly softens in the background.

Given my forestated concern about my lenses working in all formats on this cam, and what I am saying about Zeiss and Leica preference and shallow depth of field, any recommendations - especially from you Axilrod? 

I can't really speak about Leica, as I don't have much experience with them, although from what I've seen they're all amazing, but will they even fit on an EF mount?  But I can say that I absolutely love all of the Zeiss glass in terms of color accuracy/rendition, bokeh, sharpness, and micro contrast, they are all superb.  I'd say a 50mm would be pretty crucial to add to your set initially.  There are a few options with that:

1.Zeiss CP. 2 50mm T/1.5 Super speed - $4500, available October 15th. 
2. Zeiss CP.2 50mm T/2.1 - $3990, already available
3. Zeiss ZE 50mm f/2 Makro - $1283 - Amazingly sharp lens, just as good optically as the others

Honestly even the Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 is a stellar lens, and it's only $725.  Keep in mind the CP.2's are essentially just ZE's in a cinema housing with built in gears and smooth aperture ring, but optically they are very similar.  The only difference you'll see visually is the CP.2's have a 14-blade iris vs. the 9 the ZE's have, so you'll get a more circular bokeh.  If you have the money by all means go for the cine lenses, but I wouldn't expect too much more out of them than the ZE's in terms of optics.  You're paying more for the convenience of uniform size across the board to make it easier to switch them out and make adjustments on your rig/mattebox.  And of course the focus throw is much better (although they are great on the ZE's) and you have a smooth aperture ring so you can change it without anyone noticing. 

I'm not sure about the Canons, although I'd venture to say they are optically similar to their L-counterparts just in a cinema housing.  They are debuting quite a bit cheaper than initially expected, they said $6800 when they were announced but now that I'm looking they're all around $5k. 

I'd also look into the Duclos modded lenses (http://www.ducloslenses.com/), they pretty much sell the ZF.2's with the aperture ring declicked and a follow focus gear built in, and I think they make the thread size uniform as well.  You'd be able to get the entire set (http://www.ducloslenses.com/products/zeiss-zf-2-set) for about the same price as 2 cinema primes.  Just a thought.

[billybob]

Thanks Axilrod. I have just emailed them to check that all five lenses in their Zeiss ZF.2 set are compatible with the Canon EOS DC1 in both HD and 4K Mode. I like the look of that. Will let you know what they say.

[wickidwombat]

What about the ziess 85mm it's supposed to be super awesome

[Axilrod]

What about the ziess 85mm it's supposed to be super awesome

If he's only going to start with the 24mm and one other I think the 85mm might be too long.  It's 110mm with the 1.3x crop in 4k mode.  But I would suggest that as the next purchase after the 50mm.  That was my suggestion if he was set on a cinema prime.  But if he was willing to do the ZF's the Duclos set includes all of these (so he would get the 85mm):

21mm f/2.8
25mm f/2.0
35mm f/1.4
50mm f/2.0 macro
85mm f/1.4

[Axilrod]

Thanks Axilrod. I have just emailed them to check that all five lenses in their Zeiss ZF.2 set are compatible with the Canon EOS DC1 in both HD and 4K Mode. I like the look of that. Will let you know what they say.

They are most definitely compatible with the 1DC, any EF mount lens will be.  The only difference between HD and 4K mode will be the field of view, but it won't be too much different since the crop is only 1.3x.  The ZF.2's were actually intended for Nikon, but the Duclos set all come with EF adapters attached out of the box. Don't let the fact that they were originally intended for Nikon scare you, they are optically identical, but the manual iris ring is preferred for cinema (which the ZE's don't have).

Also, I think this test will be of interest to you: http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2011/12/lens-test/.  It's a comparison between Canon L glass, the Zeiss ZE's (same as ZF's, the Duclos set), the CP.2's, and the Leica R.  You'll be hard pressed to tell a difference between the CP.2's and the ZE's, the only place you can really tell a slight difference is in the guitar scene at the end, the bokeh is more rounded on the CP.2 because of it's 14-blade iris (vs. the 9 of the ZF.2 counterparts). 

[Policar]

For the money the Samyang lenses can't be beat.  If a little breathing (not that bad) doesn't bother you and flare isn't an issue they are really on par with the best of the best and super inexpensive.

24mm f1.4 on APS-H "feels" like 18mm on super35, 35mm feels like 25mm, etc.  So a 24m, 35, 50, 85 kit at f1.4 then a big zoom or optionally an UWA zoom (depending on needs) would cover most things great.

The typical "cinema" package is 18mm to 85mm at f2.8 or faster (in APS-C/super35 terms).

Optically these lenses are more than up to the task, too.

[Axilrod]

For the money the Samyang lenses can't be beat.  If a little breathing (not that bad) doesn't bother you and flare isn't an issue they are really on par with the best of the best and super inexpensive.

24mm f1.4 on APS-H "feels" like 18mm on super35, 35mm feels like 25mm, etc.  So a 24m, 35, 50, 85 kit at f1.4 would cover things great.

Optically these lenses are more than up to the task, too.

He's buying a $10k camera and the first lens he seemed seriously interested in is $5200, the Samyangs are great if you're on a budget but clearly he's not.