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Author Topic: Lenses for 1DC?  (Read 5921 times)

Policar

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2012, 10:34:29 PM »
For the money the Samyang lenses can't be beat.  If a little breathing (not that bad) doesn't bother you and flare isn't an issue they are really on par with the best of the best and super inexpensive.

24mm f1.4 on APS-H "feels" like 18mm on super35, 35mm feels like 25mm, etc.  So a 24m, 35, 50, 85 kit at f1.4 would cover things great.

Optically these lenses are more than up to the task, too.

He's buying a $10k camera and the first lens he seemed seriously interested in is $5200, the Samyangs are great if you're on a budget but clearly he's not.

They're comparable to the Canon L equivalents (well, the 35mm outperforms the 35mm L wide open and the others are not far behind) and, in my experience, they outperform the Cooke S4s and Zeiss Superspeeds as well in terms of sharpness and micro contrast wide open.  Granted the mechanics and "look" are worse, but just because you CAN spend more money doesn't mean you need to, especially when the rest of a decent package (tripod, camera support, matte box, filters) can add up so fast.  I know a lot of Scarlet users are using these lenses, and that's the same price range (though I'd much prefer the 1DC!).

That said, if money is no issue, the Canon cinema primes seem like the best things going; the selection is just very limited and the prices are high.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 10:36:21 PM by Policar »

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2012, 10:34:29 PM »

Axilrod

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2012, 11:04:32 PM »
They're comparable to the Canon L equivalents (well, the 35mm outperforms the 35mm L wide open and the others are not far behind) and, in my experience, they outperform the Cooke S4s and Zeiss Superspeeds as well in terms of sharpness and micro contrast wide open.  Granted the mechanics and "look" are worse, but just because you CAN spend more money doesn't mean you need to, especially when the rest of a decent package (tripod, camera support, matte box, filters) can add up so fast.  I know a lot of Scarlet users are using these lenses, and that's the same price range (though I'd much prefer the 1DC!).

That said, if money is no issue, the Canon cinema primes seem like the best things going; the selection is just very limited and the prices are high.

First off, the CP.2 Super speeds aren't even available until October 14th, so how you're qualified to say the Samyangs outperform them is beyond me.  Maybe you're talking about the older Super Speeds, but that would be just as ridiculous.  And are you seriously trying to say that the Samyang outperforms (as in are better than) $20,000+ Cooke Primes?  Are you out of your mind or just joking? 

I mean don't get me wrong, they're great for the money and if you're on a budget, but you're giving them way, way, way, way too much credit.  Yes, the Samyang 35 is comparable to the 35L in terms of performance, but that's the exception, the rest of the Samyangs have gotten pretty mediocre reviews.  So let's say he does get the Samyang 35, what about every other focal length? 

How you can slam Cooke's and Zeiss CP.2's yet be cool with the Canon's are beyond me, since the Canon Cine's aren't even available, how do you have any idea how they perform? 

And OP was clearly interested in the Canon Cine's and the CP.2's, I suggested the Duclos modded ZF.2's which are reasonably priced cinema lenses.  But if a guy says he wants a Lamborghini and you think it's too much, try talking him down to a Corvette or something first, not a Geo Metro.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 11:15:59 PM by Axilrod »
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billybob

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2012, 01:12:10 PM »
This is helping refine my understanding and inclination, so thanks everyone.

Definitely gravitating towards the Duclos Mods, even if Duclos were non-committal when I inquired about compatibility with the 1DC - although their stated reason was merely that they're unfamiliar with this new model.

My sense is the Duclos set of 5 is compatible with the 1DC and it's great you guys are backing that up. Budget for glass is around 10K, by the way, but would rather get 1 or 2 high quality lenses than 5 mediocre ones. I am moving towards the Duclos mods because my gut is telling me they will perform to the same level as Canon's new cine primes, as far as my eye is concerned at least.

Question - which of the five has the most shallow depth of field?

billybob

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2012, 04:20:40 PM »
Actually, I've just been advised that the Duclos 11-16 is not meant for even APS-H sensor, so for filming at 4K, it will vignette at 11mm and should improve when you are go towards 16mm - also that the Zeiss CP.2 s are also not meant for APS-H (1.3 crop factor as in the 1D Mark IV ). They are meant for the 1.6 crop factor 7D and other cameras. So Those should also vignette when you are filming at 4K on the 1DC....

Aaaaargh!

 ;D



Policar

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2012, 05:54:16 PM »
They're comparable to the Canon L equivalents (well, the 35mm outperforms the 35mm L wide open and the others are not far behind) and, in my experience, they outperform the Cooke S4s and Zeiss Superspeeds as well in terms of sharpness and micro contrast wide open.  Granted the mechanics and "look" are worse, but just because you CAN spend more money doesn't mean you need to, especially when the rest of a decent package (tripod, camera support, matte box, filters) can add up so fast.  I know a lot of Scarlet users are using these lenses, and that's the same price range (though I'd much prefer the 1DC!).

That said, if money is no issue, the Canon cinema primes seem like the best things going; the selection is just very limited and the prices are high.

First off, the CP.2 Super speeds aren't even available until October 14th, so how you're qualified to say the Samyangs outperform them is beyond me.  Maybe you're talking about the older Super Speeds, but that would be just as ridiculous.  And are you seriously trying to say that the Samyang outperforms (as in are better than) $20,000+ Cooke Primes?  Are you out of your mind or just joking? 

I mean don't get me wrong, they're great for the money and if you're on a budget, but you're giving them way, way, way, way too much credit.  Yes, the Samyang 35 is comparable to the 35L in terms of performance, but that's the exception, the rest of the Samyangs have gotten pretty mediocre reviews.  So let's say he does get the Samyang 35, what about every other focal length? 

How you can slam Cooke's and Zeiss CP.2's yet be cool with the Canon's are beyond me, since the Canon Cine's aren't even available, how do you have any idea how they perform? 

And OP was clearly interested in the Canon Cine's and the CP.2's, I suggested the Duclos modded ZF.2's which are reasonably priced cinema lenses.  But if a guy says he wants a Lamborghini and you think it's too much, try talking him down to a Corvette or something first, not a Geo Metro.

What are you talking about?  Super speeds are all time classics.  I am referring to the Mark IIIs.  They're super35 only, of course.  They are a bit older (1980s and 1970s) but still command $35,000 used for a a good set.  Divisive lenses due to bokeh, harshness, coma wide open, and poor close focus but they are my favorite cinema lenses in some respects...so small and fast.  But not as sharp as the Samyang 35mm!  I am also dead serious that this lens is as sharp if not sharper than the Cooke S4 primes, but the Cookes have a beautiful dreamy effect (that actually reduces resolution) and gorgeous bokeh and no breathing--all I'm saying is, resolution isn't everything!

Fwiw, I have the 85mm Samyang and it's pretty close to the best of the best fast 85mms.  There's a bit less resolution, but micro-contrast is still excellent and bokeh is fine.  Build quality is just okay, but your comparison is ridiculous.  Maybe MPs to kit lenses is Lambo to Metro, but MPs don't even cover APS-H reliably (though they are probably fine from 14mm+)....this is more like Benz to Bentley...you pay for fit and finish, performance is better but with diminishing returns....  Worth it to some, of course, but diminishing returns is key and performance and utility wise they are in the same category as the CPs.  Not MPs or Cookes, of course, though performance is surprisingly close in terms of sharpness alone.  If you put a high end cinema lens on a still camera and shot it against still glass I think you would be surprised--performance is not that much better.  The reduction in breathing is something, but the CPs breathe a bit and aren't even true cinema lenses.  (Which aren't really options for the 1DC, anyway, because of its oversized sensor.)

Canon cinema lenses haven roughly the same designs as their L lenses except better coatings and different aperture blades and build quality is better...so speculating on their quality is easy and they will trump the CPs for the price.  24mm f1.4 II is a great lens and I can't imagine the Zeiss lenses are worth it by comparison when price is taken into account.  They are pretty sharp but slow for the money and the super speed CPs should be expensive for a $10,000 kit.  Modified ZE lenses seem like a better idea, but again performance won't beat Samyang or Canon to a field significant extent.  (Canon L is a bad choice, though, only since there are no hard focus stops!).  Zeiss lenses do have nice coatings and good micro-contrast and flare control, so that is worth something.  Whatever you can afford is best, though--having the right focal lengths, filters, and useable mechanics is 1000X more important than a little resolution at stops you will almost never use--who shoots wide open (except David Fincher) and gets away with it?  t2.8-t5.6 are the stops that count--all these lenses will be great at those stops.

The 11-16mm will be fine if you don't mind soft corners with a little CA and zooming in to 14mm or so before using it.  It works great on the Epic, usable with major vignetting even at 11mm, and kind of works at 16mm on full frame.  I wouldn't recommend it if you can afford better, but I wouldn't recommend the 17-40mm f4 L, either, which is optically poor.  These are extreme UWA focal lengths of course, cool for music videos and cramped locations but not classically useful.

Btw, a normal cinema kit needs to cover the 18-85mm on super35 (approx 24-110mm on APS-H) range and then wider or tighter or zooms as needed for the specific project...no one wants one or two good lenses if they don't have the proper focal lengths and in terms of IQ you will not be able to detect a difference between any of these lenses at normal stops.  You are paying for build quality; yes it is worth it but not to the exclusion of having the right focal lengths.  It is worth it if you plan to rent, though.  A Zeiss CP kit with appropriate focal lengths will rent over the alternatives, I would wager, because of the name recognition, important to less experienced shooters who don't realize they're just expensive Cosinas, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Also get a full complement of NDs: .3 .6 .9 1.2 1.5, a polarizer, a set of diffusion filters if you can afford it, a .6ND hard, soft, and attenuator, a follow focus (not cheap) with whip, and tripod of course...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 06:07:22 PM by Policar »

Policar

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2012, 06:05:26 PM »
Also, although the site is full of absolute garbage information for the most part, the lens section of reduser.com has some good info on affordable high quality glass.

Fwiw, I really love the MF Nikkors and they have hard stops and good focus throws and are almost free (of course you need adapters, which are a pain).  The 105mm f2.5 is a gem so you can put together a great full kit, but...  The 24mm f2 is garbage (I think the 24mm f2.8 is better, but maybe not much and it's slow; the 28mm f2 has spherical aberration wide open but is otherwise excellent), though so the wide end becomes tricky.  For a "vintage" look these lenses are amazing, though, and so inexpensive.

Another option is the 24-70mm and 70-200mm zooms, but then you have issues with pulling focus.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 07:32:11 PM by Policar »

billybob

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2012, 05:27:44 PM »
Sorry, I just realised the 11-16 that might vignette is not in the Duclos package and the entire package should work in 4k mode.

It does seem a better option than one or two lenses, to get five if they are going to match the quality to my eye...

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2012, 05:27:44 PM »

eyeland

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 10:33:04 AM »
I have some considerations similar to the OP - Should I necro this thread or start a new? Guess I'll try to revive it as it already contains a host of valuable advice.
Anyways, I have been offered to shoot a travel/nature/lifestyle pilot (and much more if the pilot goes well) on a 1DC for an upcoming 4K content production house, and I will be partly responsible for putting the kit together along with the boss :)
Initially, he thought he'd be able to get one do-it-all-zoom, but I have warned him that he WILL need several pieces of glass, and that the canon cine zooms are too expensive for our budget so far (and too heavy to e versatile enough for our trips.)
We are starting small and building from there, so I need a little advice on lenses. We will be shooting alot outdoors (desserts, rain-forest, underwater housing, stabilized aerials) so I think we need a rugged kit :)
As mentioned, the Cine-zooms are above budget. I would love to go straight for a full prime-kit such as the Duclos, but firstly, we might need to start even simpler than that, and secondly, I think that we might really need a zoom lens or 2 for certain scenarios.
In the end, we might rent glas for the pilot, but the questions remain the same.
Does it make sense to start out with a 24-70II and a few cheap primes for the Pilot?
Also, are the canon cine primes worth the premium over eg. the Duclos set?
Whats the best way to go for landscape beauty shots?
I assume that 16-35L is sub par?
Canons recent non-L primes with IS (for the occasional semi-candid hand-helds) look very nice, but I think we will need the build and sealing of the L/Cine. How are the Duclos in terms of sealing?
I am yet unsure the extend to which de-clicking and gears will be needed.

Ps. I know these are enough questions for several threads, and I might be overly enthusiastic atm but cut me some slack, I just got one step closer to my dream job, "70,000 fathoms deep" :D .
This pilot is a big thing for me and I really want to do everything I can to make run smoothly so I can stay and grow with the job (and the cam. (just thinking about the 1DC with a set of Zeiss primes makes me all warm and fuzzy inside)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 07:04:04 AM by eyeland »
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brad goda

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 02:21:03 AM »
I think more important to consider is what rig you are using for your set up... focus pulling... T adjust
the EF and ZF lenses are good.. but NOT cinema lenses... focus racking and seamless T adjustments are made way different on Canon cinema and Zeiss CP.2

yes any or most lenses will be good... but what kind of mechanics will your film making require.
there will be many adaptations you will have to make to make EF lenses fit matte boxes and rigs...


eyeland

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2013, 06:59:31 AM »

I think more important to consider is what rig you are using for your set up... focus pulling... T adjust (...) yes any or most lenses will be good... but what kind of mechanics will your film making require. there will be many adaptations you will have to make to make EF lenses fit matte boxes and rigs...
I understand this and I realize that my post was very vague.
To begin with, we're doing a very crude setup for the pilot (its just a 2-3 day shoot), I will mostly be doing landscape beauty-shots (big panoramas and star-timelapse), so I think we might do the first shoot without any real rig. Probably a nice tripod, a merlin glide and a simple slider. Maybe a very simple follow-focus, but this is not even certain. In future shoots, (if all goes well) we'd be going much more cinematic, eg. more narrative shots, more characters and much more focus pulling.
Maybe I should distinguish between questions that have to with optical qualities and questions pertaining to ergonomics and other non optical considerations. 


the EF and ZF lenses are good.. but NOT cinema lenses... focus racking and seamless T adjustments are made way different on Canon cinema and Zeiss CP.2

I don't understand what you mean by this? :)

From what it looks like today, we might start off with one or two zooms and a few primes. I assume that eg. 24-70II+70-200 2.8II is a sturdy combo, but what if we want to go wider than that?
From an optical standpoint, are there any L-glass that you would NOT recommend using for 4K?

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Re: Lenses for 1DC?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2013, 06:59:31 AM »