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Author Topic: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing  (Read 12918 times)

psolberg

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2012, 12:41:50 PM »
The release probability of the Nikon D600 for Photokina is now at 99%. Here is an updated list of the specifications (new additions in bold):
 •Very small and lightweight body
 •16 bit image processing
 •Expeed 3 processor
 •Maximum video recording: 30 minutes
 •Built-in mic
 •19 scene modes
 •Magnesium alloy only on top and back only
 •Maximum shutter speed of 1/4000
 •Shutter life: 150,000 cycles (the D800 is rated for 200,000 cycles)

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/08/30/updated-specifications-for-the-nikon-d600.aspx/#ixzz251haVGAP


----

not entirely sure what the buzz about 16 bit PROCESSING is, i thought the processing is 16 bit already but the data is only 14 bit? (two bits are always zero).

does this mean it´s 16 bit from the sensor, through AD, to the prozessor?

I think all Nikon's have a 16bit pipeline internally. But they end up recording at 14bit since nothing really uses all the bit space and the files would be larger. The D800 maybe with its 14+stops of DR is just about the only camera that takes good advantage of 14bit raw files. The canon's are stuck in 12 stop land so I doubt canon will see in necessary to increase the bit width anytime soon.

It probably won't happen, but if they had 16 bit raws and an increase in DR to take advantage of that extra room then it would make one killer camera for 1500 dollars.

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2012, 12:41:50 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2012, 12:48:06 PM »
So only a few months after the D800 and D4 are released Nikon releases a FF camera with 16bit processing?

That's going to piss people off.

Not really.


Sure it will...especially after DxO releases a result showing the D600 can achieve 16.8 stops of DR.  :-X
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weixing

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2012, 01:12:54 PM »
Hi,
So only a few months after the D800 and D4 are released Nikon releases a FF camera with 16bit processing?

That's going to piss people off.

Not really.


Sure it will...especially after DxO releases a result showing the D600 can achieve 16.8 stops of DR.  :-X
    Hmm... how do you get 16.8 stop when there is only 16-bits??

    If Nikon come out with such a full frame camera at such low price, I have no doubt that it'll sell well, but most likely will also eat into Nikon D7000 or D800 sales. It's also good news for Canon user as Canon sure will response with a low cost full frame camera... competition is good!

    Have a nice day.

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2012, 01:48:59 PM »
So, this is the 5dMKIII competitor, not the D800. If the rumor about the price, $1500 is correct, then it is a 5DMKIII at half the price. Canon should be afraid.


it´s an entry level fullframe.
not really a competition to the 5D MK3 other then sensor size and MP.

really? I disagree. first of all it is cheaper. big plus. second it is just 1fps slower. not enough to justify the cost of the 5DmkIII. Has slightly superior resolution and if the D800 is any indication, it will easily outclass the 5DmkIII in dynamic range and low noise in shadow areas at low ISO. Surely the 5DIII will have the better AF system and probably more pro-body feel. But if this camera costs 1500 dollars, you can buy two for the price of one 5DIII and the 5DIII isn't twice the camera. sorry.

go buy a rebel.. it´s even cheaper.. LOL   ;D

i can buy three VW golfs for one porsche.

i think most who are interested in a 5D MK3 (and need it´s features) would not be satisified with the specs from the D600.

the D600 will sure be no bad camera, but a camera is more then then sensor size and pixel count.

build quality, af, iso range not to mention all the small things that make the 5D MK3 an incredible tool are missing (or worse) in the D600 as it seems.

it will be a nice entry level FF camera for amateurs. but i doubt professionals will choose it over a 5D MK3.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 01:58:50 PM by Canon-F1 »

neuroanatomist

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2012, 02:04:47 PM »
Sure it will...especially after DxO releases a result showing the D600 can achieve 16.8 stops of DR.  :-X
    Hmm... how do you get 16.8 stop when there is only 16-bits??

Simple - you massage manipulate fudge normalize the data.  DxOMark scored the D800, with it's 14-bit ADC, at 14.4 Ev of DR (their 'landscape score'). 

If you want the technical explanation, DxO's Scores are normalized to an 8 MP print, and downsampling a higher resolution image to 8 MP for comparison purposes gives a boost (an unfair one, I think) to ISO and DR performance.  That boost gets proportionally higher as sensor resolution increases, so it's no real surprise that a 36 MP FF sensor gets top Scores.  IMO, DxO's Scores (overall and use case) are useless, although their Measurements are useful, provided you set them to Screen view vs. Print (for example, the Screen measurement for the D800 is 13.23 stops of DR at the lowerst ISO - and that actually is possible with a 14-bit ADC).
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Positron

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2012, 02:39:18 PM »
The number of attainable stops of DR is theoretically independent of the resolution of the ADC, though, since using tricks like variable resistance or non-linear quantization you could compress any number of stops of real-world scene into any number of bits of data. The result wouldn't necessarily be useful, but then when did we care about that?  :P

What I want to know, if anyone cares to explain it, is what exactly "16-bit processing" actually means. If it means that the camera's internal memory has a 16-bit address space, then it's completely meaningless mumbo-jumbo. If it means the ADC is 16 bits but the final image is stored as 14 bits, then they are throwing away 75% of the data captured (and a ton of wasted processing power) to save 12% of the space (4 MB, at best?), which seems like a Really Bad Idea for RAWs. So what's going on here?

Ewinter

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2012, 02:50:57 PM »
Even if it is one hell of a camera...it's still ugly as sin. I'm guessing if there was one reason i'd even entertain of switching, it'd be the fact nikon have uncompressed hdmi. But then, I prefer canon lens choice. And af. And the way they handle...

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2012, 02:50:57 PM »

Aglet

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2012, 03:49:47 PM »
What I want to know, if anyone cares to explain it, is what exactly "16-bit processing" actually means. If it means that the camera's internal memory has a 16-bit address space, then it's completely meaningless mumbo-jumbo. If it means the ADC is 16 bits but the final image is stored as 14 bits, then they are throwing away 75% of the data captured (and a ton of wasted processing power) to save 12% of the space (4 MB, at best?), which seems like a Really Bad Idea for RAWs. So what's going on here?

internal processing, for applying gamma curves, etc., benefits from not having least significant bits truncated until the processing is finished.
Even PnS compacts, who only output 8b jpegs, often process 10 to 12 bits internally to reduce posterization and provide better tonal gradations than they would if they only processed 8 bits worth of data all the way from sensor to file.

As for this D600 rumor, I'd buy one in a snap and toss my 5D2 out with yesterdays lunch were it not for the pile of pricey Canon glass I have for it.
What Canon does to RESPOND to this third, kick-butt, FF-body within a year from their main competitor is what interests me more. 

If Canon puts out (very soon please) a reasonably priced FF that has better IQ, (for those who don't know my posts that means less shadow noise at low ISO and more dynamic range) that may stop me from liquidating more of my Canon kit.  That would also cause me a bit of confusion because I'll have TWO FF systems to choose from then. (Yes, I prefer Canon's lenses)
As it is now, there's only one FF body that doesn't let me down for IQ, and it's from the dark side.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 04:00:28 PM by Aglet »

Positron

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2012, 04:33:25 PM »
What I want to know, if anyone cares to explain it, is what exactly "16-bit processing" actually means. If it means that the camera's internal memory has a 16-bit address space, then it's completely meaningless mumbo-jumbo. If it means the ADC is 16 bits but the final image is stored as 14 bits, then they are throwing away 75% of the data captured (and a ton of wasted processing power) to save 12% of the space (4 MB, at best?), which seems like a Really Bad Idea for RAWs. So what's going on here?

internal processing, for applying gamma curves, etc., benefits from not having least significant bits truncated until the processing is finished.
Even PnS compacts, who only output 8b jpegs, often process 10 to 12 bits internally to reduce posterization and provide better tonal gradations than they would if they only processed 8 bits worth of data all the way from sensor to file.

I can understand keeping the data until you make the conversion to JPEG, but if you already have all that data why would you throw it out in the RAW at all? My understanding is that building ADCs good enough to get that kind of quantization resolution is much more difficult (and expensive) than moving the data around. Having the extra 2 bits per channel would allow a lot more manipulation with minimal destruction in post, and you could always throw them out when you're ready to export.

simonxu11

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2012, 07:37:46 PM »
So, this is the 5dMKIII competitor, not the D800. If the rumor about the price, $1500 is correct, then it is a 5DMKIII at half the price. Canon should be afraid.


it´s an entry level fullframe.
not really a competition to the 5D MK3 other then sensor size and MP.

really? I disagree. first of all it is cheaper. big plus. second it is just 1fps slower. not enough to justify the cost of the 5DmkIII. Has slightly superior resolution and if the D800 is any indication, it will easily outclass the 5DmkIII in dynamic range and low noise in shadow areas at low ISO. Surely the 5DIII will have the better AF system and probably more pro-body feel. But if this camera costs 1500 dollars, you can buy two for the price of one 5DIII and the 5DIII isn't twice the camera. sorry.



i think most who are interested in a 5D MK3 (and need it´s features) would not be satisified with the specs from the D600.

the D600 will sure be no bad camera, but a camera is more then then sensor size and pixel count.

build quality, af, iso range not to mention all the small things that make the 5D MK3 an incredible tool are missing (or worse) in the D600 as it seems.
What small things??

-Auto ISO? Even D3200's auto iso is better than 5d3's
-Multi exposure and HDR? D90 got these in 2008, canon just added
-Build-in time-lapse functionality? no for canon
-Build-in flash with wireless trigger? no for 5D
-AF face detection? no for canon except 1D and in liveview mode
-AF point-linked spot metering? A standard feature in Nikon entire range, no for canon except 1D
------------------------------------
-Shutter life: the same
-Viewfinder: the same
-Exposure compensation: the same
-Video spec: very similar, I think 5D3 is better and it has the silent touchpad
------------------------------------
-Resolution: you know it
-DR: you konw it
-A/D conversion: 16 bit for Nikon
-------------------------------------
-Continuous shoot: 5D3 is better by 1fps (D600 perhaps as fast as 5D3 with battery grip)
-Maximum shutter speed: 5D3 is better
-High iso: 5D3's better (I am guessing 0.5-1 stop)
-AF: 5D3 is clearly better
-Build quality: 5D3 is better, but the rumored D600 is smaller and lighter.
-Storage: 5D3 uses CF card, so it's better to me
--------------------------------------
IMO, if the rumored spec of the D600 is true, then it's not far behind 5D3, but it's $2000 cheaper.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 07:39:40 PM by simonxu11 »

Ewinter

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2012, 09:10:23 PM »

-AF: 5D3 is clearly better
...
--------------------------------------
IMO, if the rumored spec of the D600 is true, then it's not far behind 5D3, but it's $2000 cheaper.
This may completely go against how your philosophy and how you shoot, but imho- i'd pay the extra $2000 just for the better AF, and the 1 FPS more. Why?
I'd take getting the shot in 8bit JPEG over missing the shot in 24bit colours any day, because that's what matters most to me.
It's like that old saying- "F.8 and be there" or whatever it was. That person had it right. You have to get the shot before you can worry about anything else

Stephen Melvin

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2012, 09:34:59 PM »
I find it interesting how some people are talking about jumping ship for the rumored D600 when the D800 isn't even as good as the 5D Mk III, outside of its amazing sensor. And even that starts to lose its advantage at ISO 800.

Speed, AF, video quality, high ISO performance, wireless flash system, build quality and hell, quality control during manufacture are all advantages for the Canon. Strong advantages. Plus, we get some pretty awesome lenses to play with.

Let's put it this way: if both cameras had the exact same sensor, which one would you pick?

simonxu11

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2012, 10:29:31 PM »
I find it interesting how some people are talking about jumping ship for the rumored D600 when the D800 isn't even as good as the 5D Mk III, outside of its amazing sensor. And even that starts to lose its advantage at ISO 800.

Speed, AF, video quality, high ISO performance, wireless flash system, build quality and hell, quality control during manufacture are all advantages for the Canon. Strong advantages. Plus, we get some pretty awesome lenses to play with.

Let's put it this way: if both cameras had the exact same sensor, which one would you pick?
I find it interesting how many canon fanboies here, but they will deny this.
It all depends what you shoot if you compare D800 and 5D3.

Canon just leads in the AF only from this year with the 5D3 and 1DX, 5D3 leads D800 on high ISO performance in raw slightly (DXO and Dpreview showed 5D3 lost to D800), 1DX and D4 are very similar, with the 600EX-RT, Canon finally catches up with Nikon. 

Quality control??
black tape on 5D3, AF problem on 40mm, rubber grips on 650............Oh and the error code from 01 to 99.

I also prefer Canon but can't stand the some nonsense

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2012, 10:29:31 PM »

Tayvin

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2012, 02:33:44 AM »
It's hard to complain about a $1500 FF camera, but I hope this "RUMOR" is wrong about the SD card slots.  I don't think I even own a SD card anymore?  I also remember reading another "RUMOR" about the D600 using a sensor that is not made by Sony.  That may no longer be true, but if it is, don't expect the DR you get from a D800.


kirillica

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2012, 04:00:46 AM »
What small things??

-Auto ISO? Even D3200's auto iso is better than 5d3's
-Multi exposure and HDR? D90 got these in 2008, canon just added
-Build-in time-lapse functionality? no for canon
-Build-in flash with wireless trigger? no for 5D
-AF face detection? no for canon except 1D and in liveview mode
-AF point-linked spot metering? A standard feature in Nikon entire range, no for canon except 1D
it looks like you need a rebel camera, if you really care about HDR and face detection ;D

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Re: rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2012, 04:00:46 AM »