September 19, 2014, 07:58:52 AM

Author Topic: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?  (Read 5415 times)

photophreek

  • Guest
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2012, 12:10:22 PM »
Neuro:

I balance the Sidekick along with my 500mm and 1D IV combo very easily.  I also have a 580 ex II attached to the lens plate on the 500mm using Wimberley's flash bracket.  The trick is to balance this combo once and then mark the lens foot as demonstrated by Clay Wimberley in one of his videos so that balance is only done once.  The RRS leveling base with dovetail clamp is a great system.

I completely agree that the best way to go is the Wimberley II with the perpendicular plate.  I offered an alternative from my personal experience that the Sidekick is a safe, secure and more economical alternative.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 12:11:55 PM by photophreek »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2012, 12:10:22 PM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14405
    • View Profile
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2012, 12:16:05 PM »
@ photophreek: Thanks, that's great feedback!  Has me considering the side mount RRS vs. the full version.  In fact, RRS themselves recommend the side mount for lenses up to and including the 800/5.6L.
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

canon816

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 211
    • View Profile
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2012, 04:38:12 PM »
@ photophreek: Thanks, that's great feedback!  Has me considering the side mount RRS vs. the full version.  In fact, RRS themselves recommend the side mount for lenses up to and including the 800/5.6L.

There are a couple of things to think about before making this choice:

1) While photophreek mentions that it works well for him, i am guessing that he hasn't used a full gimball to compare to it.  (I might be wrong and I hate to assume, so please correct me if I am)  While the sidekick does handle this load, it does so with mediocrity.  Even with a BH55 the panning is not silky smooth like the full gimball.  It is safe and secure, but the performance is not even close when trying to track a fast moving object such as a vehicle or bird in flight.  Also the vertical range is limited because of the big base of the ballhead.  With a full Gimball you can point the lens much higher in the sky.

2) Side mount systems like the sidekick, RRS sidemount, Wimberley Side mount actually introduce vibration into the system.  There is a lot of cantilever leverage by mounting on the side that does not dampen vibration the same way a full gimball like the WH200 does.  A good friend of mine has done extensive testing with FoCal on this and found that supporting from underneath the camera like the WH200 or RRS will produce a higher IQ value.  I did similar testing myself when I purchased my WH200.  I compared IQ between the sidekick +RRS BH55 and the WH200 and found that IQ actually improved by 10% with the full gimball that supports from below. I was able to repeat this result with both a 600mm f4 and a 300mm f2.8 lens.

While we do use our hand/arm to support and dampen vibration by placing it above and below the lens barrel while shooting, I believe that it it is much better to start out with a lower vibration, higher IQ setup if possible.

If you are on a budget then the sidekick will do what you need.... if you can afford the full WH200 or the more expensive RRS full gimball then it is worth the added cost many times over.  The way I look at it is this:  I have an $800 tripod, $5,000 camera, $8,000 lens, what is a couple hundred dollars to make it all come together and operate to its fullest potential?

canon816

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 211
    • View Profile
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2012, 04:41:58 PM »
Also, I will add to this that when setting a heavy lens and camera body combo into the clamp... it is much more secure when you set it down onto a horizontal mount then when you have to hold it to a vertical mount with one hand and tighten the knob with the other.  Peace of mind that you are not balancing some expensive gear while clamping it in...  :)

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14405
    • View Profile
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2012, 05:39:03 PM »
Also, I will add to this that when setting a heavy lens and camera body combo into the clamp... it is much more secure when you set it down onto a horizontal mount then when you have to hold it to a vertical mount with one hand and tighten the knob with the other.  Peace of mind that you are not balancing some expensive gear while clamping it in...  :)
That's actually my main concern.  Just to be clear, I'm not at all considering the Wimberley Sidekick.  The only side mount I'm considering is the RRS PG-02 LLR, which is the same base and vertical arm as their PG-02 Full Gimbal, but the clamp is attached to the top of the vertical arm, whereas with the full gimbal, there's an additional vertical rail attached at the top of the vertical arm, and the cradle clamp (bottom mount) attached to that. 

2) Side mount systems like the sidekick, RRS sidemount, Wimberley Side mount actually introduce vibration into the system.  There is a lot of cantilever leverage by mounting on the side that does not dampen vibration the same way a full gimball like the WH200 does.  ... I compared IQ between the sidekick +RRS BH55 and the WH200 and found that IQ actually improved by 10% with the full gimball that supports from below. I was able to repeat this result with both a 600mm f4 and a 300mm f2.8 lens.
I wonder how much of that is due to the side mounting, vs. how much is due to the Sidekick mounted to a ballhead?  What I'd be most interested in is a comparison between the RRS side mount and the RRS full gimbal.

Can you provide more details on the cantilever vibration, and whether it would be similar with the RRS side mount?  It seems to me that the increased torque of having the force transfered via the vertical rail from below the pivot point, rather than having the weight attached directly to the pivot point, would lead to more vibration, not less.

If you are on a budget then the sidekick will do what you need.... if you can afford the full WH200 or the more expensive RRS full gimball then it is worth the added cost many times over. 
It's not about the cost.  In fact, since one reason I prefer the RRS gimbal over the Wimberley II is the flexibility to use it as a pano head as well, there's not a huge difference in cost.  The full gimbal is more expensive, but conversion to a nodal multirow pano setup requires only a clamp, which is cheaper than the nodal slide needed for the side mount gimbal conversion - I think there might be all of $50 difference between the two complete rigs.

Rather, I'm trying to balance (pun intended) the facts that the side mount is:

  • simpler (one less clamp)
  • easier to break down for travel
  • lighter and more compact to carry (two less parts)
  • has extra space under the lens when mounted
  • able to directly accept a camera mounted via L-bracket for shots with non-collared lenses (full gimbal needs the cradle clamp swapped out for a regular clamp or needs to be swapped for a ballhead), which is useful because the places I find birds/wildlife are also usually nice for scenic shots

vs. the fact that the full gimbal is:

  • safer to use while mounting the lens into the clamp

As I said, RRS themselves recommend the side mount over the full gimbal (despite the fact that the former makes them less money).  I've discussed with a photographer who's work I admire, who just went with the RRS side mount for his 500 II, and he's quite happy with it.  It's worth noting that with the lever release on the side mount, setting the lens in the clamp and half-closing the lever will hold it in place, and it can then be balanced before full locking. 

Any additional thoughts appreciated - thanks!
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

DMITPHOTO

  • Guest
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2012, 05:46:38 PM »
Some more interesting feedback and posts! The full gimbal using it 24/7 might be the way to go. Today I was shooting in rocky mounting national park and set everything up for a landscape I was dialing in the n grad filter and oh up walks a bunch of elk. And switching everything was a super pain because the stupid 500mm has to be so heavy. And then it happened again where a flock of medow lark and these super blue birds like right in front if me. And one thing that really is not fun was trying to track the birds. I ended up just holding down the shutter crossing my fingers I'd capture one. The full might be better because you can detach the lens the put on a different body with a lens already on it. Because with the sidekick or some mount to the ball head you have to adjust the head to the side and add in the attachment then line up the lens trying not to drop it lol.

DMITPHOTO

  • Guest
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2012, 05:50:48 PM »
Also a guy shows up next to me while I'm shooting asking if there was anything good and I pointed to the elk so he says cool. Comes back next to me with a full gimbal, 800mm and 1DX... I cried a little inside with my 5d3 and 500 listening to 12 fps haha however he was like all over the place shooting birds and idk what else but of course it was all super smooth and effortless. I was going to talk to him about his set up but he was off to quickly.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2012, 05:50:48 PM »

DMITPHOTO

  • Guest
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2012, 05:55:37 PM »
Another dumb question. If I go with the full gimbal as just my every day use it for everything tripod head, and I use it for mounting my camera the plate mounts to the bottom of the camera, so how do you turn the camera and mount it on its side??

DMITPHOTO

  • Guest
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2012, 06:03:02 PM »
Answered my own questions so the wim site says you can't shoot vertically unless you have an L plate. So does the rrs L plate work on the gimbal?

photophreek

  • Guest
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2012, 06:28:45 PM »
@canon816 - with all due respect and I have been shooting long enough with my 500mm and 1D IV, that the full gimball is the way to go.  However, the Sidekick is not something to dismiss as inferior.  On the contrary, the panning action of the ballhead makes the Sidekick very much like a gimball head and I have used the Wimberley II.  The Sidekick was designed to be used with the 500mm as attested to by the Wimberley website.  Mounting and balanceing the 500mm with both the Wimberley II and the Sidekick is demonstrated on their website. 

I really don't want to get into a "this is the right way and that is the wrong way" discussion only to offer the OP an alternative based on practical experience.  I'm photographing birds two three times a week with this setup and have no complaints and make no compromises.

canon816

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 211
    • View Profile
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2012, 06:54:39 PM »
@canon816 - with all due respect and I have been shooting long enough with my 500mm and 1D IV, that the full gimball is the way to go.  However, the Sidekick is not something to dismiss as inferior.  On the contrary, the panning action of the ballhead makes the Sidekick very much like a gimball head and I have used the Wimberley II.  The Sidekick was designed to be used with the 500mm as attested to by the Wimberley website.  Mounting and balanceing the 500mm with both the Wimberley II and the Sidekick is demonstrated on their website. 

I really don't want to get into a "this is the right way and that is the wrong way" discussion only to offer the OP an alternative based on practical experience.  I'm photographing birds two three times a week with this setup and have no complaints and make no compromises.

Thanks for the clarification.  I'm glad your setup works for you.  Happy shooting.   :)

canon816

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 211
    • View Profile
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2012, 07:07:31 PM »
Neuro:

Interestingly Clay Wimberley recommends his side mount over his full WH200 as well.  He believes that from an engineering standpoint it is a stiffer setup and thus would be more stable.  I wonder if this is why RRS is recommending their sidemount over their full head as well.

Regarding the FULL GIMBALL vs SIDE MOUNT: From what I understand (and I am not an engineer) that the arm that supports the lens barrel from below somehow has a dampening quality to it in regards to how vibration travels through the setup.  Whether this is vibration injected from wind or mirror I'm not sure.  Perhaps it lies in the stiffness of the whole setup.  Clay believes that the sidemount is stiffer... and while stiffer is often better it may not quite translate to an advantage here.  Much like aluminum legs on a tripod versus carbon fiber.

I'll ask my friend who has tested this to clarify it more for me.  I believe his FoCal testing was with the WH200 and the Wimberley Sidemount (Not sidekick).

I shoot with a 600mm and its not the nice light 8.5lb Version II.   I really appreciate having a horizontal surface to clamp into without worrying if I have the lensrail inserted properly in the clamp before I move my hands around.

canon816

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 211
    • View Profile
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2012, 07:08:21 PM »
Answered my own questions so the wim site says you can't shoot vertically unless you have an L plate. So does the rrs L plate work on the gimbal?

Yes.  They are both Arca Swiss Style.  (My L Plate is RRS)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2012, 07:08:21 PM »

DMITPHOTO

  • Guest
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2012, 07:26:11 PM »
Answered my own questions so the wim site says you can't shoot vertically unless you have an L plate. So does the rrs L plate work on the gimbal?

Yes.  They are both Arca Swiss Style.  (My L Plate is RRS)

However on the full gimbal vertically mounted u can't look through the view finder the way the camera would sit :-/. I only shoot vertically for panos which I don't shoot to often so I guess I shouldnt worry

canon816

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 211
    • View Profile
Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2012, 07:43:30 PM »
Answered my own questions so the wim site says you can't shoot vertically unless you have an L plate. So does the rrs L plate work on the gimbal?

Yes.  They are both Arca Swiss Style.  (My L Plate is RRS)

However on the full gimbal vertically mounted u can't look through the view finder the way the camera would sit :-/. I only shoot vertically for panos which I don't shoot to often so I guess I shouldnt worry

Yes you can.  You buy an adapter called the "wimberley module 8"  You clamp this into the gimball mount.  Then you clamp your L-Plate into this.  Basically it is an adapter that turns the mounting surface on the gimball 90 degrees allowing you to mount your L-Plate instead of a Lens Foot Plate. 

The orientation of the camera to the gimball are the same whether you shoot with your lens clamped in or your L- Plate. 

I shoot Panos all the time (vertically) with this setup.  The Module 8 also allows you to slide the setup back a little orienting the front of the element over the center of the tripod base.  This helps to prevent Parallax when as you shoot from one edge of the pano to the other.  (RRS makes a longer "Module 8" type thing that works even better at eliminating parallax, its just a little more $$ and called the Nodal Slide http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=MPR-CL-II&type=0&eq=MPR-CL-II-002&desc= )


canon rumors FORUM

Re: Induro Gimbal Hold A 500mm?
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2012, 07:43:30 PM »