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Author Topic: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]  (Read 33202 times)

lola

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: September 09, 2012, 04:14:07 AM »

[...]
And here's the thing. The "old" sensor is still professional grade and delivers.
[...]

The "old" sensor is fine if no one else worked on sensor technology in the past 3+ years.
Seeing as they have,  I would like my current vendor of choice to also strive to improve their offerings.

EXACTLY!
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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: September 09, 2012, 04:14:07 AM »

mathino

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #91 on: September 09, 2012, 04:29:10 AM »
Quote

Maybe you should go back and read my post again, and of course the previous posts.

1. I'm not sad that people are content with their 5D Mark II's. Read again!
2. How'd you come up with the part the people wanting something different makes me sad?

One couldn't get my post more wrong! I wonder how you managed that...

It's very funny that you suggest, we should be "grateful" to a corporate company, cut them some slack and stuff like that. Are you a baseball coach or something?

I'm paying a premium for a Canon or Nikon product and I should be grateful? WTF???

And oh yeah, I can very well tell if an image was shot with a 5DII, 1DsIII, or 800E. I don't expect you to do it, because you think 5DII's sensor is still professional grade and you are grateful for it!


I see your point. We should get better stuff in new body. I think that info about 5D Mk II sensor was just a typo. It would be a "little bit" unwise decision to re-use 4 years old tech. My bet would be for 5D Mk III/1D-X/new 20 MPx sensor paired with single Digic 5/5+. New sensor mentioned @ http://photorumors.com/2012/09/08/canon-rumored-to-announce-a-nikon-d600-competitor-at-photokina/ . With one of those sensors, 7D AF and metring, build quality as 7D I can see 6D as a well selling product. Maybe the new sensor would get "upgrade" for auto AF in video (STM lenses)...

I wont expect more pro features, like 61 point AF or so. Keep in mind that it should be entry level. You should not expect too much. If someone wants all-around camera - there is 5D Mk III. Maybe Canon decides to compete with lower price...we need to wait a little longer...

...and if you want quality of D800/E sensor then buy one  ;) Maybe Canon high MPx body will be alike but I doubt that it would be in the same price range. And also high MPx body is just a rumor, it may be announced this year,  may be next year...only Canon knows. Ive seen info that they are waiting for initial sales demand for 5D Mk III and 1D-X to be achieved...my bet would be some time next summer with 4K price tag.

Little off topic:

Well, Ive been thinking about 40 f/2.8 STM. Why produce FF lens with STM when you dont have FF sensor that supports new combined AF for video ? Look a little bit weird to me...unless you have new sensor/body in testing before production. Just my thoughts...
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 06:07:46 AM by mathino »
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mathino

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2012, 05:01:02 AM »

[...]
And here's the thing. The "old" sensor is still professional grade and delivers.
[...]

The "old" sensor is fine if no one else worked on sensor technology in the past 3+ years.
Seeing as they have,  I would like my current vendor of choice to also strive to improve their offerings.

EXACTLY!

Well, I dont want to start 5D Mk III vs D800 flame war again. But what holds you back if you WANT D800 ?

Sure, D800 sensor is great, DR is very good but it is a very demanding tech. You need to get very good lenses to "feed" such MPx sensor. And to process huge RAWs you need good PC and enough storage....but thats different story. And when you buy D800 you know all pros/cons.

...yes, Canon should imrpove sensor tech. But I see a weak point only in lower ISOs compared to D800. For me (and I know Im not alone around here) is more important to have better high ISO output - I want to shoot with available light. In this area current Canon FF cameras are really good.

Ive noticed some info that 6D could have entirely new 20 MPx sensor. Maybe first FF to support hybrid AF for video ? Maybe better DR ?

...all in all, we should wait and judge after some reviews are made. And DxO score are just numbers...but its your decision to you choose/judge/buy by that...
6D (on the way) | 450D | EF 28 f/1.8 USM | EF 40 f/2.8 STM | EF 85 f/1.8 USM | 430 EX II | wishlist: EF 24-70 f/2.8 L II USM, EF 135 f/2 L

mathino

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #93 on: September 09, 2012, 06:04:07 AM »
If you take different parts of old people and stitch them together, do you get a young person?

So, I guess that Canon is planning to put out a "new" product which is simply a Frankenstein of outdated products.

No you wont get young person :-D

...hmm, according to you, 550D should have different AF then 500D, 600D should have new sensor and new AF (because it is new generation of camera, doesnt matter that life cycle is +- one year), 60 D with new AF and different sensor too. Of course they reuse parts. They reuse them to make stuff cheaper. What do you think how many would Rebel cost if every next gen would get entirely new sensor, AF etc ? R&D costs of new sensor are big. And its not all about sensor, processors counts too...

Do you expect 6D to have all specs as 5D Mk III ? Under 2000USD ? Well, it will also be reusing parts...

Ive used both 7D and 5D Mk II and I can say that 7D AF is very capable (if you know how to use it). I had a chance to take couple of pictures using 5D Mk III - I was amazed by high ISO capabilities. 6D can do great as a product with 5D Mk III/1D-X/new sensor, 7D AF and 7D metring, 7D build, Digic 5/5+. I would buy one. An Im sure I wont be the only one...
6D (on the way) | 450D | EF 28 f/1.8 USM | EF 40 f/2.8 STM | EF 85 f/1.8 USM | 430 EX II | wishlist: EF 24-70 f/2.8 L II USM, EF 135 f/2 L

lola

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2012, 06:29:06 AM »
If you take different parts of old people and stitch them together, do you get a young person?

So, I guess that Canon is planning to put out a "new" product which is simply a Frankenstein of outdated products.

I couldn't have given a better example. Well done!
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Marsu42

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #95 on: September 09, 2012, 06:50:17 AM »
feck it with the camera name, just reveal the specs already! and for october release please!!

I don't care when they reveal the specs, but when they *deliver* the camera - think of the 24-70ii - and Canon might be very well inclined to market specs before the camera is ready to counter the Nikon d600 at least on paper. That's because every day a 6d isn't there people will buy a 5d3 because they think the 5d2 is too old and they bite the bullet and go for the current 5d model.

Well, I dont want to start 5D Mk III vs D800 flame war again.

Keep your breath for the upcoming 6d vs d600 flame war - $2000 touch flip screen plastic crippled amateurish camera vs $1500 semipro body ... or maybe canon has learned something from the 5d3 marketing disaster? Let's hope so.

And its not all about sensor, processors counts too...

... but most of all, the whole package counts and not just the core tech specs you find on a data sheet. If the usability is amateurish like xxxd and the firmware is crippled w/ with most customization options gone the camera is positioned in another market segment. Think of the "metering linked to af point" that is on the 1dx, but not on the 5d3 - surely just for marketing purposes since the af unit is the same.

mathino

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2012, 07:45:06 AM »
Quote
I don't care when they reveal the specs, but when they *deliver* the camera - think of the 24-70ii - and Canon might be very well inclined to market specs before the camera is ready to counter the Nikon d600 at least on paper. That's because every day a 6d isn't there people will buy a 5d3 because they think the 5d2 is too old and they bite the bullet and go for the current 5d model.

I totally agree with you. Announcement is something, well, purely informational - availability is something completly different (see 1D-X and 24-70 II as an example). As Ive stated before Ive seen info that they are waiting for initial sales demand for 5D Mk III and 1D-X to be achieved...before high MPx body could be announced.

Quote
Keep your breath for the upcoming 6d vs d600 flame war - $2000 touch flip screen plastic crippled amateurish camera vs $1500 semipro body ... or maybe canon has learned something from the 5d3 marketing disaster? Let's hope so.

Im not the flame war person, Im actualy more "try and compare" preson. Specs are fine, ehm, but not everything. I hope that Canon learned this lesson with 5D Mk III pricing and hope for competitive 6D.

Quote
And its not all about sensor, processors counts too...
Quote
... but most of all, the whole package counts and not just the core tech specs you find on a data sheet. If the usability is amateurish like xxxd and the firmware is crippled w/ with most customization options gone the camera is positioned in another market segment. Think of the "metering linked to af point" that is on the 1dx, but not on the 5d3 - surely just for marketing purposes since the af unit is the same.

I know that whole package counts. But you know, most of users looks for the sensor first and think that only sensor makes the camera. Of course that processors, firmware and other stuff counts too. Firmware can really cripple down camera. There is a reason for pro line, semi-pro and amateur line. And technologies comes to "less pro" products over time.

My ideal package for 6D would be: 5D Mk III/1D-X/new sensor, 7D AF and 7D metring, 7D build, Digic 5/5+, 3.5-4.5 fps, AFMA.
6D (on the way) | 450D | EF 28 f/1.8 USM | EF 40 f/2.8 STM | EF 85 f/1.8 USM | 430 EX II | wishlist: EF 24-70 f/2.8 L II USM, EF 135 f/2 L

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2012, 07:45:06 AM »

Marsu42

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #97 on: September 09, 2012, 08:01:14 AM »
My ideal package for 6D would be: 5D Mk III/1D-X/new sensor, 7D AF and 7D metring, 7D build, Digic 5/5+, 3.5-4.5 fps, AFMA.

... and of course there's planned obsolescence even with high-priced products as digital camera bodies and lenses (24-70 IS anyone?) :-(

If Canon would release the one you described it not artificially limit it by firmware it would be a sales hit and saturate the dslr market for years to come. That's fine for the next quarterly sales figures, but produces a mid-term problem if Canon tries to market the next successor - they have this problem w/ the 5d2 which is just too good and feature-complete to make the 5d3 @$3500 competitive. Imho that's why they didn't put a better sensor in the 5d3 btw, this time they upgrade the body specs (fps, af), next time it's the sensor again like 5dc->5d2.

And Canon's strategy seems to be to make money from selling camera bodies, the alternative of selling cheaper bodies and then hope for L lens sales is tricky because of the good 3rd party manufacturers.

mathino

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #98 on: September 09, 2012, 08:23:54 AM »

... and of course there's planned obsolescence even with high-priced products as digital camera bodies and lenses (24-70 IS anyone?) :-(

If Canon would release the one you described it not artificially limit it by firmware it would be a sales hit and saturate the dslr market for years to come. That's fine for the next quarterly sales figures, but produces a mid-term problem if Canon tries to market the next successor - they have this problem w/ the 5d2 which is just too good and feature-complete to make the 5d3 @$3500 competitive. Imho that's why they didn't put a better sensor in the 5d3 btw, this time they upgrade the body specs (fps, af), next time it's the sensor again like 5dc->5d2.

And Canon's strategy seems to be to make money from selling camera bodies, the alternative of selling cheaper bodies and then hope for L lens sales is tricky because of the good 3rd party manufacturers.

I know that probability of my "dream list" to come true is very low. But lets dream for a while  ;)

...such body would be a true successor to 5D Mk II and, as you mentioned, it would sell well for next 3 years (as 5D Mk II sells). Yes, in that case, there would be a problem with successor. 5D Mk II is still a great body with good price/preformance ratio. Not many people are willing to splash 1.5 K more on better AF and couple of features.

And I agree with you, they upgraded specs (fps, processor, AF) and they could put better sensor in Mk IV. Sounds logically ;)

...well, Im not a Canon fanboy, but when I purchase FF body - I would want L-series lenses for it. Maybe except of some macros and 50 made by Sigma and new TS-E by Samyang. "Good" strategy would be to procude capable (feature balanced) FF body to force users to upgrade/look for L lenses...


...so, lets wait and see :) Ehm, and what do you think about 40 f/2.8 STM ? Why they delireved such lens (for FF) with (currently) no FF that supports new phase detection AF ? Do you think that this new body could have sensor tech for it ?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 08:34:37 AM by mathino »
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Marsu42

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2012, 09:01:34 AM »
Ehm, and what do you think about 40 f/2.8 STM ? Why they delireved such lens (for FF) with (currently) no FF that supports new phase detection AF ? Do you think that this new body could have sensor tech for it ?

I'm sure all upcoming canon camera will have phase detection pixels, there's no drawback afaik and it helps the crappy contrast af. I think that might be the reason for Canon to delay any new cameras (70d, 6d): The 650d sensor surely was just the first issue with the old 18mp version as a base - they'll learn from the performance and adapt future sensors accordingly. And maybe the time since the 650d release is just too short to engineer a new sensor generation, ff or crop - or is it?

zim

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #100 on: September 09, 2012, 09:11:22 AM »
IF this FF camera actually exists I don’t believe it will be using old tech it’s either going to be a seriously crippled 5D3 without AFMA or an up scaled 650D with the 5D3 sensor. I would imagine that the first option would be much easier to engineer but the second preferred by sales/marketing. I think we all know who usually wins the decisions between those departments.

If Canon see the future as all cameras having phase detection pixels then wouldn’t they have started to develop the FF sensor at the same time as the crop? So it may well be ready to be market tested in a lower grade body.

mathino

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #101 on: September 09, 2012, 09:33:03 AM »
I'm sure all upcoming canon camera will have phase detection pixels, there's no drawback afaik and it helps the crappy contrast af. I think that might be the reason for Canon to delay any new cameras (70d, 6d): The 650d sensor surely was just the first issue with the old 18mp version as a base - they'll learn from the performance and adapt future sensors accordingly. And maybe the time since the 650d release is just too short to engineer a new sensor generation, ff or crop - or is it?

...this is what I think. All future sensors will have phase detection pixels, 650D looks to me like a "test" body to test this AF and develop it further. I think there is a reason they put it in amateur body at first. They need time to adjust/develop it correctly to move it to higher lines. Maybe FF one was in the development with 650D one...there was some info about new 20 MPx FF sensor (it could has those pixels).

Well, Im curious about 6D, how it will fit in and what it will have and what wont. IF 6D will be announced and wont meet my needs then I would go for 5D Mk II or...wait a year and spare some cash and get Mk III...hmmm...
6D (on the way) | 450D | EF 28 f/1.8 USM | EF 40 f/2.8 STM | EF 85 f/1.8 USM | 430 EX II | wishlist: EF 24-70 f/2.8 L II USM, EF 135 f/2 L

Marsu42

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: September 09, 2012, 09:36:59 AM »
If Canon see the future as all cameras having phase detection pixels then wouldn’t they have started to develop the FF sensor at the same time as the crop? So it may well be ready to be market tested in a lower grade body.

Question is if Canon thinks their phase detection tech is the production-ready version (then they'd have developed a new ff sensor at the same time as crop) or if it the one on the 650d was only the first beta to be tested in a short-lived xxxd body and they plan to optimize or re-design the tech with these experiences (in this case it's doubtful they'll have a ff version ready in 2 weeks).

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: September 09, 2012, 09:36:59 AM »

tiger82

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #103 on: September 09, 2012, 09:38:24 AM »
What would sell?  IMO, Take the 7D body and slap a FF sensor in it and either stay with the Dual Digic 4 or use the 5 or 5+ while keeping everything else the same.  Call it the 7Ds (just like the 1Ds is the FF version of the 1D) and slap a $500 premium for the FF which will put it smack in the $1500-2000 vacant price point between the 7D and the 5D3 where the 5D2 is going extinct.  I think people would buy a FF body capable of 6-8fps.  Forget new vs old technology, what product is missing from their lines?  A poor man's 1Dx.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 09:44:50 AM by tiger82 »
1D3 with 70-200 IS f/2.8L, 5D2 with 24-70 f/2.8L

mathino

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2012, 09:55:08 AM »
What would sell?  IMO, Take the 7D body and slap a FF sensor in it and either stay with the Dual Digic 4 or use the 5 or 5+ while keeping everything else the same.  Call it the 7Ds (just like the 1Ds is the FF version of the 1D) and slap a $500 premium for the FF which will put it smack in the $1500-2000 vacant price point between the 7D and the 5D3 where the 5D2 is going extinct.  I think people would buy a FF body capable of 6-8fps.  Forget new vs old technology, what product is missing from their lines?  A poor man's 1Dx.

...in that case, what would the purpose of 5D Mk III be ? I dont see Canon just slaping FF sensor in 7D. It would cut away sales of 5D Mk III. My bet is that 6D would be a bit better 5D Mk II (with same fps and better, still worse than Mk III, AF). No way it would do more then 4.5-5 fps. 6D will be firmware crippled.
6D (on the way) | 450D | EF 28 f/1.8 USM | EF 40 f/2.8 STM | EF 85 f/1.8 USM | 430 EX II | wishlist: EF 24-70 f/2.8 L II USM, EF 135 f/2 L

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Re: Canon EOS 6D Announcement Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2012, 09:55:08 AM »