Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!

[brianleighty]

$2100 is low enough to pressure Canon to release the 6D more quickly, but not enough to drop the price on the 5D2.  I'm on the fence right now without a camera, looking for the best FF I can get for under $1500.  The pipe dream of a $1500 D600 is gone, so I'm hoping (but not expecting) that a discontinued/refurbished 5D2 or D700 will pop up around that price by Black Friday/Christmastime.  However, the D700 sold out so quickly at $2000 that I think it'll be a long wait.  I may just have to return to the old 5D.

If you're willing to get a kit and sell the 24-105 for around $800 then you can have something pretty close to that. I got a 5D mark ii for $2400 with the 24-105. I said was going to sell the lens to my wife and then I just ended up keeping it

[brianleighty]

I've noticed several people mention the 6D having 2 card slots. I think this is DEFINITELY a feature that will be missing. It's an easy way to differentiate between it and the Mark iii plus if it's really trying to get the entry level ff market then most people upgrading will only be used to one slot while those that are using it for a 2nd body will realize that's the cost of saving some money or if it's really important to them then they'll go get a 5d mark iii.

[distant.star]

.
I don't smoke anything, never have, but I have seen the same better IQ from my T2i compared to a 7D. The low ISO noise on a 7D is unacceptable to me.

Sure, it's subjective. Sure, it's anecdotal. But ash is not alone in his experience with Canon products. And none of my experience has been influenced by chemistry.

Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.

The T2i and 7D use the same CMOS image sensor...but you're claiming the T2i has substantially better IQ?  That's like buying two bottles of Guinness Extra Stout from different liquor stores and claiming one tastes much better...I suppose it's possible - but if so, it's clearly subjective and most likely due to having smoked something first...

[verysimplejason]

I know the difference isn't that much, but there it is.

Thanks for the link.  Clicking on the RAW Comparison subtab, scrolling down, Imaging Resource states, "As you can see, the Canon T4i performs very similar to the T3i, though detail in the red leaf cloth isn't quite as good (something we also saw in camera JPEGs)."  So, you were correct in that there is a slight difference...except the T4i/650D actually seems to be a little worse, not better, compared to the T3i (7D sensor).

What I'm trying to say is that it used to be that 7D speed, AF and weather seal are enough to justify its cost for me but now with the newer 650D it almost isn't the case anymore or shall we say it's already due for replacement.  Sure for sports or bird photographers like you, 7D might still be a better alternative or 2nd body but not for me or everyone else involved in other types of photography.  To add, money is also an object for somebody like me but not to professionals like you so my opinion on this matter.  Anyway, thanks for the advise on being happy with my 500D.  It makes sense. 

Well, the 7D is over three years old now.  But still, the IQ is equivalent to the 650D, the AF is substantially better, and the build is way better. 

One key thing for me, and a big part of the reason I upgraded from a T1i/500D to a 7D in the first place, is AF Microadjustment.  I shoot with fast primes, and the lack of AFMA can be a real problem in that case.  You either need to get lucky, be willing to buy and return multiple copies of a lens, or be willing to send lens(es) and body into Canon for adjustment.  Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA.  Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA.  If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.

Reds are a little bit worse in 650D because of the on-chip noise reduction (digic 5) applied by newer versions of Canon.   But 650D improved in their DR department even if it is still a little bit below Nikon.  Anyway, it's true, AFMA is also one of reasons I want to go to FF  aside from the fact that you can get a far better IQ with FF.  I am also looking at Canon's entry level FF body.  As of now, I have problems shooting with the 28mm F1.8 wide open (I know with the 28, it's not recommended.  You need at least F2.2 to get sharper results).  But I can get sharper pictures using the live-view with manual focus.  I am fortunate with my 50mm and 100mm that they are very sharp copies.  If Canon omits it with 6D, you're getting the feeling that they are not taking care of their advance enthusiasts.  I might opt for 5D2 or 5D3 then which is of course a pain.  One too old (it might be very hard to get a new one) and one over-spec'd for me (though it's a good thing) but pricey. 

[Aglet]

.. I have seen the same better IQ from my T2i compared to a 7D. The low ISO noise on a 7D is unacceptable to me.

60D also has more pleasant low ISO noise characteristic than the 7D; much less banding.
7D's sensor is similar to, but different from the other cameras. It utilizes a dual data readout for more fps.

You have to ETTR on the 7D to get the best out of it, a bit counterproductive for a "fast" camera.

[aznable]

I used to have both T2i and 7D.  I also feel the IQ on T2i is better than 7D when the AF is accurate.  Most time 7D has really grate/accurate AF, but T2i doesn't.
Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit.  Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.

you are right, the raw output from 550D/t2i looks a little sharper than the one of 7d, subtle difference anyway

[verysimplejason]

I used to have both T2i and 7D.  I also feel the IQ on T2i is better than 7D when the AF is accurate.  Most time 7D has really grate/accurate AF, but T2i doesn't.
Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit.  Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.

you are right, the raw output from 550D/t2i looks a little sharper than the one of 7d, subtle difference anyway

Maybe there's a problem with how the Dual Digic 4 process the raw file.  Somehow, it gets more complicated when you use a dual chip.  Even ML can't get through it that they can't offer support on 7D.

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/7D_support

[moreorless]

I've noticed several people mention the 6D having 2 card slots. I think this is DEFINITELY a feature that will be missing. It's an easy way to differentiate between it and the Mark iii plus if it's really trying to get the entry level ff market then most people upgrading will only be used to one slot while those that are using it for a 2nd body will realize that's the cost of saving some money or if it's really important to them then they'll go get a 5d mark iii.

I think you could well be right and that the D600 and the 6D end up actually going after very different markets. The D600 to me looks much more a response to the 5D3 than it does an entry level model while Canon obviously have no need to come up with another camera in that area.

Could turn out to be smart business by Canon I'd say since I think price comes a much larger issue for entry level models. At that level giving up dial card slots, some FPS and AF performance on the D600 to save £500ish on a 6D would probabley be a popular choice.

[verysimplejason]

I've noticed several people mention the 6D having 2 card slots. I think this is DEFINITELY a feature that will be missing. It's an easy way to differentiate between it and the Mark iii plus if it's really trying to get the entry level ff market then most people upgrading will only be used to one slot while those that are using it for a 2nd body will realize that's the cost of saving some money or if it's really important to them then they'll go get a 5d mark iii.

I think you could well be right and that the D600 and the 6D end up actually going after very different markets. The D600 to me looks much more a response to the 5D3 than it does an entry level model while Canon obviously have no need to come up with another camera in that area.

If 6D can be offered @ around $1.5K - 1.8K with slightly better than 7D AF, I think it will be one of the most successful SLR of Canon.  It's like a cheaper 5D3.  I don't mind with the extra SD slot.  I hope Canon realize that with this, they can have more users using FF and more sales with their L and EF lenses.

Could turn out to be smart business by Canon I'd say since I think price comes a much larger issue for entry level models. At that level giving up dial card slots, some FPS and AF performance on the D600 to save £500ish on a 6D would probabley be a popular choice.

[Bruce Photography]

No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"?  I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800 which is very good.  I've used 12 to 13 MP cameras (5D) and then I've used the 5DII and the 5DIII.  I can tell you the difference is huge.  I can also say that the sensor on the D800 is amazing.  Both in terms of resolution and dynamic range.  Canon needs to step up their game and not just their prices.  The over $10,000 price of the super tels is way out of line.  Just my opinion as a 500mm F4 IS lens user that I bought over two years ago for about $6,000.  The new ones are sharper and somewhat lighter but not to justify the over $10,000 price.

[Bruce Photography]

No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"?  I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800 which is very good.  I've used 12 to 13 MP cameras (5D) and then I've used the 5DII and the 5DIII.  I can tell you the difference is huge.  I can also say that the sensor on the D800 is amazing.  Both in terms of resolution and dynamic range.  Canon needs to step up their game and not just their prices.  The over $10,000 price of the super tels is way out of line.  Just my opinion as a 500mm F4 IS lens user that I bought over two years ago for about $6,000.  The new ones are sharper and somewhat lighter but not to justify the over $10,000 price.

I just checked the spec sheet on the Nikon USA website: Autofocus Fine Tune Yes .

[cliffwang]

No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"?  I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800 which is very good.  I've used 12 to 13 MP cameras (5D) and then I've used the 5DII and the 5DIII.  I can tell you the difference is huge.  I can also say that the sensor on the D800 is amazing.  Both in terms of resolution and dynamic range.  Canon needs to step up their game and not just their prices.  The over $10,000 price of the super tels is way out of line.  Just my opinion as a 500mm F4 IS lens user that I bought over two years ago for about $6,000.  The new ones are sharper and somewhat lighter but not to justify the over $10,000 price.

I just checked the spec sheet on the Nikon USA website: Autofocus Fine Tune Yes .

Looks you are right.  Someone got the confirm from Nikon that D600 has Fine Tune +/-20.

http://photocamel.com/forum/nikon-forum/168715-nikon-d600-does-have-auto-focus-fine-tuning.html

[Marsu42]

60D also has more pleasant low ISO noise characteristic than the 7D; much less banding.

The banding problem seems to vary strongly across different 7d samples, don't know why. For 7d banding, look here: http://a2bart.com/tech/allcamdknz.htm (also look at 5d3 vs d800 ... but of course this is shown by raising shadows excessively).

[verysimplejason]

60D also has more pleasant low ISO noise characteristic than the 7D; much less banding.

The banding problem seems to vary strongly across different 7d samples, don't know why. For 7d banding, look here: http://a2bart.com/tech/allcamdknz.htm (also look at 5d3 vs d800 ... but of course this is shown by raising shadows excessively).

It seems this is becoming a 7D gripe thread. 

[Marsu42]

It seems this is becoming a 7D gripe thread. 

... not my intention, but you're correct it's off-topic - I just wanted to provide the test link and state that not every 7d has that unbelievable catastrophic banding (wupps :-)). No, really, with proper exposure the differences across the 18mp sensors should be unnoticeable, they all have very high noise levels w/ iso800+ when raising shadows and not using ettr.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"?  I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800

Cutting afma from a $2000+ camera body surely is only something Canon would consider?! Well, obviously I'm still extremely annoyed they disabled it in the 60d firmware (the compiler macro to disable it is "#define DISABLE_AFMA_PROTECT_7D_HAHAHA_IN_YOUR_FACE_USERS 1").

Canon: Now would be a good time to release a 60d firmware 2.0 with afma re-enabled, will you?