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Author Topic: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012  (Read 14273 times)

Meh

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2012, 08:30:33 PM »
@Ecka... you don't get it.  You're far too interested in your own point of view to have a discussion... I'm asking a question how large do people think the market for the 6D will be (with the rumored specs and price) and you respond to me over and over with the same point that it's a good camera which I've agreed.   If the 6D comes out at $2500 then my point is even more valid than if it is $2100 which I am basing my point on.

And I'm not comparing the 6D to a Rebel per se... I'm imagining what customer in the market will choose this camera over the existing options just up and down the line from where this body will sit... for example top-end rebel, 7D, 5D3.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 08:33:01 PM by Meh »

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2012, 08:30:33 PM »

Lee Jay

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2012, 08:50:39 PM »
Don't know much about DSLR video but to my understanding video crop mode is pretty much a crutch feature... the resulting low-res video cropped from the centre of the frame is a weak replacement for a longer lens or moving closer.

First of all, moving closer is a bit of an impossibility when shooting planetary photography.  Second, remember, it's basically 7x.  When shooting with the 100-400L, what 2800mm lens would you like me to use instead?
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   So, no wonder it's not in the 7D or higher.  But again, I don't know much about video so... perhaps I'm wrong.

Yes, having used it extensively, I'd say you are.

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Not sure what you mean by adapting the 1DX AF to a crop body.   The 7D already has stellar AF comparable to the 1D4.   And until the 1DX gets f/8 AF don't count on it in a 7D replacement.

The 1DX and 5DIII have AF sensors that have received fewer complaints than any system I've seen Canon produce ever, including the 7D.  So adapt it to the high-end crop body.
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A 20D is great body... if you were shooting sports though there is no comparison to the 7D... better comparison is to the 60D and then, sure, you may not want the upgrade.

I was shooting ultra-high speed subjects (R/C aircraft going up to and over 200mph from as close as 40 feet - hard to even turn my body that fast).  The 20D does surprisingly well, but I wouldn't mind a major step up.

Meh

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2012, 09:16:12 PM »
@LeeJay.... Great... enjoy your 20D and it's VGA video crop since you're so partial to it.  To each his own and if it works for you perfect.   But when you figure out that the 7X crop magnification reduces the resolution from 1920x1080 down to 640x480 then you realize that's a 6.75 loss and you are no better off... you've gained nothing.   It's like digital zoom... a consumer product trick.   So, no... it's not a 2800mm equivalent.

Lee Jay

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2012, 09:29:10 PM »
@LeeJay.... Great... enjoy your 20D and it's VGA video crop since you're so partial to it.  To each his own and if it works for you perfect.   But when you figure out that the 7X crop magnification reduces the resolution from 1920x1080 down to 640x480 then you realize that's a 6.75 loss and you are no better off... you've gained nothing.   It's like digital zoom... a consumer product trick.   So, no... it's not a 2800mm equivalent.

No, that's false.

First of all, it's a T2i that has 7x video crop.

The T2i has 5184 horizontal pixels.

Reducing that to 1920x1080 is basically using about 2.7 horizontal pixels for each rendered pixel.  Because of the way Canon does that down-sampling, you actually don't do that well.

With 7x video crop, you are getting 1 exported pixel for each sensor pixel - basically a sharp 100% crop instead of a soft 37% crop.

Ultimately, you end up with at least 3 times more real resolving power with the same lens by using 640x480 video crop versus using 1920x1080 ordinary full HD video, and you get far smaller file sizes which is nice if you don't need the wider view you'd get with a 1920x1080 1:1 video export.  Of course, if you do, it would be nice to have that option as well.  That's why I want "flexible video crop modes".
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 09:30:42 PM by Lee Jay »

Meh

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2012, 09:36:27 PM »
@LeeJay.... Great... enjoy your 20D and it's VGA video crop since you're so partial to it.  To each his own and if it works for you perfect.   But when you figure out that the 7X crop magnification reduces the resolution from 1920x1080 down to 640x480 then you realize that's a 6.75 loss and you are no better off... you've gained nothing.   It's like digital zoom... a consumer product trick.   So, no... it's not a 2800mm equivalent.

No, that's false.

First of all, it's a T2i that has 7x video crop.

The T2i has 5184 horizontal pixels.

Reducing that to 1920x1080 is basically using about 2.7 horizontal pixels for each rendered pixel.  Because of the way Canon does that down-sampling, you actually don't do that well.

With 7x video crop, you are getting 1 exported pixel for each sensor pixel - basically a sharp 100% crop instead of a soft 37% crop.

Ultimately, you end up with at least 3 times more real resolving power with the same lens by using 640x480 video crop versus using 1920x1080 ordinary full HD video, and you get far smaller file sizes which is nice if you don't need the wider view you'd get with a 1920x1080 1:1 video export.  Of course, if you do, it would be nice to have that option as well.  That's why I want "flexible video crop modes".

Well then I apologize for my lack of video knowledge...   so it's 3 X extra reach then not 7 times?   A nice to have feature I'm sure.

Lee Jay

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2012, 09:51:55 PM »
Well then I apologize for my lack of video knowledge...   so it's 3 X extra reach then not 7 times?   A nice to have feature I'm sure.

It's a little over 3x compared to 1080p video, and more like 5x compared to 720p video.

Even so, that's A LOT.  I often use a 100-400L with 1.4x TC III.  That's 560mm real focal length.  With the crop mode, you get the resolving power of an over 1,700mm lens on the 7D with 1080p video.  And when shooting planetary photography, it's essential.  Framing Jupiter requires an equivalent of around 100,000mm depending on time of year.  Even with my 3,800mm telescope, the 1.6 crop factor and the 7x video crop (even if it's only a little over 3x in real resolving power) are the difference between a shot with some detail, and a white dot.

The T3i (I think) has a 3x crop mode for 1080p video.  Nice to be able to triple your real resolving power with the touch of a button.

This is all because of two things - video is low-res and stills are high-res, and video soaks up huge amounts of storage.  If neither of those were the case, we'd just do what we do with still - crop in post if necessary, which is why digital zoom is more-or-less useless (it's nice if you just don't want to take the time to crop in post, but it doesn't actually buy you any real resolving power).  So, as long as we aren't storing all our pixels when shooting video like, say, RED does, video crop modes (called "windowing" often in the video world), are useful.

Meh

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2012, 10:03:49 PM »
Well then I apologize for my lack of video knowledge...   so it's 3 X extra reach then not 7 times?   A nice to have feature I'm sure.

It's a little over 3x compared to 1080p video, and more like 5x compared to 720p video.

Even so, that's A LOT.  I often use a 100-400L with 1.4x TC III.  That's 560mm real focal length.  With the crop mode, you get the resolving power of an over 1,700mm lens on the 7D with 1080p video.  And when shooting planetary photography, it's essential.  Framing Jupiter requires an equivalent of around 100,000mm depending on time of year.  Even with my 3,800mm telescope, the 1.6 crop factor and the 7x video crop (even if it's only a little over 3x in real resolving power) are the difference between a shot with some detail, and a white dot.

The T3i (I think) has a 3x crop mode for 1080p video.  Nice to be able to triple your real resolving power with the touch of a button.

This is all because of two things - video is low-res and stills are high-res, and video soaks up huge amounts of storage.  If neither of those were the case, we'd just do what we do with still - crop in post if necessary, which is why digital zoom is more-or-less useless (it's nice if you just don't want to take the time to crop in post, but it doesn't actually buy you any real resolving power).  So, as long as we aren't storing all our pixels when shooting video like, say, RED does, video crop modes (called "windowing" often in the video world), are useful.

Thanks for the explanation.. and yes, 3 x reach is a lot.

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2012, 10:03:49 PM »

ecka

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2012, 07:16:22 AM »
@Ecka... you don't get it.  You're far too interested in your own point of view to have a discussion... I'm asking a question how large do people think the market for the 6D will be (with the rumored specs and price) and you respond to me over and over with the same point that it's a good camera which I've agreed.   If the 6D comes out at $2500 then my point is even more valid than if it is $2100 which I am basing my point on.

And I'm not comparing the 6D to a Rebel per se... I'm imagining what customer in the market will choose this camera over the existing options just up and down the line from where this body will sit... for example top-end rebel, 7D, 5D3.

Congratulations, my friend! You've got what you wanted - Rebel/60D~ class FF.
Well, I really wanted it to be 7D~ class FF camera for $2500. Crazy world :-\
FF + primes !

hambergler

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2012, 07:34:58 AM »
@Ecka... you don't get it.  You're far too interested in your own point of view to have a discussion... I'm asking a question how large do people think the market for the 6D will be (with the rumored specs and price) and you respond to me over and over with the same point that it's a good camera which I've agreed.   If the 6D comes out at $2500 then my point is even more valid than if it is $2100 which I am basing my point on.

And I'm not comparing the 6D to a Rebel per se... I'm imagining what customer in the market will choose this camera over the existing options just up and down the line from where this body will sit... for example top-end rebel, 7D, 5D3.

Congratulations, my friend! You've got what you wanted - Rebel/60D~ class FF.
Well, I really wanted it to be 7D~ class FF camera for $2500. Crazy world :-\

I don't see you have anything to complain about since you can get a 5d mark iii for 2750.

I guarantee another deal will come around between now and the canon 6d release date.
5D III | 24-70 II| 50 1.4| 70-200 2.8 IS II| 600 EX-RTx4| EF 2.0X III

ecka

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2012, 08:14:34 AM »
@Ecka... you don't get it.  You're far too interested in your own point of view to have a discussion... I'm asking a question how large do people think the market for the 6D will be (with the rumored specs and price) and you respond to me over and over with the same point that it's a good camera which I've agreed.   If the 6D comes out at $2500 then my point is even more valid than if it is $2100 which I am basing my point on.

And I'm not comparing the 6D to a Rebel per se... I'm imagining what customer in the market will choose this camera over the existing options just up and down the line from where this body will sit... for example top-end rebel, 7D, 5D3.

Congratulations, my friend! You've got what you wanted - Rebel/60D~ class FF.
Well, I really wanted it to be 7D~ class FF camera for $2500. Crazy world :-\

I don't see you have anything to complain about since you can get a 5d mark iii for 2750.

I guarantee another deal will come around between now and the canon 6d release date.

I guess, all I have to complain about is that I live in Europe :D.
$2750 for 5D3 is nice, but $1750 for 6D would be nicer ;). I'm not a professional, but I'm more into photography than talking about expensive features I don't need. I think that 5D3 may be an overkill for me and I can't afford it atm. I hate to say this, but D600 is very tempting. I may just sell all may Canon toys, get the D600 with a nice 50/1.4 and wait till 5D3 price comes down (2015?). First I want to see some reviews...
FF + primes !

Octavian

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #70 on: September 19, 2012, 08:43:31 AM »
I guess, all I have to complain about is that I live in Europe :D.
$2750 for 5D3 is nice, but $1750 for 6D would be nicer ;). I'm not a professional, but I'm more into photography than talking about expensive features I don't need. I think that 5D3 may be an overkill for me and I can't afford it atm. I hate to say this, but D600 is very tempting. I may just sell all may Canon toys, get the D600 with a nice 50/1.4 and wait till 5D3 price comes down (2015?). First I want to see some reviews...

My thoughts exactly with the exception of I dont like the Nikon feel or UI.

ecka

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2012, 09:09:07 AM »
I guess, all I have to complain about is that I live in Europe :D.
$2750 for 5D3 is nice, but $1750 for 6D would be nicer ;). I'm not a professional, but I'm more into photography than talking about expensive features I don't need. I think that 5D3 may be an overkill for me and I can't afford it atm. I hate to say this, but D600 is very tempting. I may just sell all may Canon toys, get the D600 with a nice 50/1.4 and wait till 5D3 price comes down (2015?). First I want to see some reviews...

My thoughts exactly with the exception of I dont like the Nikon feel or UI.

I don't like many things about Nikon - UI, ergonomics (backward lens mounting, backward zooming, backward focusing, grip, button layout), lack of aperture control in LiveView, possible green LCD tint :), customer service, no free image editing software, more expensive higher grade lenses, arrogant fanboys. That may take some getting used to :D
FF + primes !

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Re: Reminder: Announcements on September 17, 2012
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2012, 09:09:07 AM »