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Author Topic: 6D Sensor... why?  (Read 13759 times)

Canon-F1

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6D Sensor... why?
« on: September 17, 2012, 08:23:21 AM »
can someone explain why the 6D has a new developed 20.2 MP sensor?

i mean, im tottaly puzzled why a new sensor?

if it would be a hybrid sensor.. ok.... but it´s not.
so why making another sensor an not using the 5D MK3 sensor?

i mean, it has to be more expensive to R&D yet another FF sensor then using and producing a existing sensor?

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6D Sensor... why?
« on: September 17, 2012, 08:23:21 AM »

Gothmoth

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 09:03:02 AM »
i don´t know.

but it better be a hell of a sensor to make up for the other shortcomings!!

preppyak

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 09:15:57 AM »
if it would be a hybrid sensor.. ok.... but it´s not.
so why making another sensor an not using the 5D MK3 sensor?
If I had to guess, I'd say it's two things

1. It will be slightly worse than the 5dIII sensor, to keep the differentiation. The DR will be slightly less, the high ISO will be 1/2-1 stop worse, and the video will have more moire/aliasing.

2. There are still plenty of consumers who can't differentiate between spec sheets and rely on MP. So, now Canon has the logical upgrade path of 18mp for their APS-C, 20MP for their entry full-frame, and 22MP for their 5dIII. And the 1DX is differentiated by being $6k+

It's about the only way it makes sense to me, unless their was a reason to try and make it match the AF system

Gothmoth

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 09:20:17 AM »
1. It will be slightly worse than the 5dIII sensor, to keep the differentiation. The DR will be slightly less, the high ISO will be 1/2-1 stop worse, and the video will have more moire/aliasing.


well compared to sony/nikon they already lack behind (*).
there is no price to win in making a even "worser" sensor. :)

and what you wrote about (moire, DR, high iso) why not using the 5D Mk2 sensor then?
the 5D MK2 is exactly as you describe it.
no need to develop a new sensor, only to make it a bit worse then the 5D MK3 sensor.

(*) and trust me i can tell from my customers that most of them buying a 2000-3000$ camera are well aware of that fact.  but then im not a online retailer....


Quote
2. There are still plenty of consumers who can't differentiate between spec sheets and rely on MP. So, now Canon has the logical upgrade path of 18mp for their APS-C, 20MP for their entry full-frame, and 22MP for their 5dIII. And the 1DX is differentiated by being $6k+

again... from my experience the 2000-3000$ customers are not such noobs anymore.




« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 09:27:28 AM by Gothmoth »

psolberg

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 09:26:40 AM »
simple. they wanted to protect the 5DmkIII. if they sold you the same sensor, they wouldn't be able to do that. They also can't go high MP if they want to stay low cost so they had to cripple the 6D or risk nuking their own 5DIII.


Gothmoth

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 09:29:10 AM »
simple. they wanted to protect the 5DmkIII. if they sold you the same sensor, they wouldn't be able to do that. They also can't go high MP if they want to stay low cost so they had to cripple the 6D or risk nuking their own 5DIII.


imho that argument makes no real sense... the 7D has the same sensor as the 550D.

there is enough to differentiate the two models.
you don´t have to research and develop a new sensor for that.

dilbert

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 09:32:06 AM »
simple. they wanted to protect the 5DmkIII. if they sold you the same sensor, they wouldn't be able to do that. They also can't go high MP if they want to stay low cost so they had to cripple the 6D or risk nuking their own 5DIII.


imho that argument makes no real sense... the 7D has the same sensor as the 550D.

there is enough to differentiate the two models.
you don´t have to research and develop a new sensor for that.

But look at what happened with the 1Ds3 and the 5D2. The 5D2 pretty much killed the 1Ds3.

If the 6D had the same sensor as the 5D3 (or better) then you can bet your a** that the 6D would have taken a large number of sales away from the 5D3.

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 09:32:06 AM »

Gothmoth

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 09:37:45 AM »
simple. they wanted to protect the 5DmkIII. if they sold you the same sensor, they wouldn't be able to do that. They also can't go high MP if they want to stay low cost so they had to cripple the 6D or risk nuking their own 5DIII.


imho that argument makes no real sense... the 7D has the same sensor as the 550D.

there is enough to differentiate the two models.
you don´t have to research and develop a new sensor for that.

But look at what happened with the 1Ds3 and the 5D2. The 5D2 pretty much killed the 1Ds3.

If the 6D had the same sensor as the 5D3 (or better) then you can bet your a** that the 6D would have taken a large number of sales away from the 5D3.

that´s correct but it was a special case imo.

a sensor is not the only thing that differentiates two camera models.
the 1Ds3 had the bad luck that the 5D MK2 was good enough at that moment for most.

but with the 11 point AF system and all the other shortcomings, the 5D MK3 sensor would not make the 6D SUCH a better deal.

and still the question remains... why not using the 5D MK2 sensor then?


« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 09:41:21 AM by Gothmoth »

simonxu11

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2012, 09:39:05 AM »
According to Canon USA the image format of 6D is 35.8mm x 23.9mm, 5D2 is 36mm x 24mm.
I guess Canon just trim down the 5D2's sensor a bit. Maybe the AF is also modified from the 9 point AF in the 5D2. In this way, Canon is able to use these 4 years old parts to create a new body, reduce the overstocked 5D2 sensors and AF module and cut the cost a lot. Three birds with one stone.

Gothmoth

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2012, 09:44:50 AM »
According to Canon USA the image format of 6D is 35.8mm x 23.9mm, 5D2 is 36mm x 24mm.
I guess Canon just trim down the 5D2's sensor a bit. Maybe the AF is also modified from the 9 point AF in the 5D2. In this way, Canon is able to use these 4 years old parts to create a new body, reduce the overstocked 5D2 sensors and AF module and cut the cost a lot. Three birds with one stone.

yeah... thought about it.

but please... NO.

selling the old sensor as NEW developed sensor to the public.
that would be too cheap even for canon... not?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 09:46:26 AM by Gothmoth »

sandymandy

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2012, 10:17:31 AM »
I dont think anything else besides different amount of pixels is a "new developement".

@ above me

This would be too cheap for Canon?

Just see what Leica did with their totally different *cough* M9-P. Remove a red dot and sell it for more cash to ONLY well earning customers...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 10:19:35 AM by sandymandy »

UrbanVoyeur

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2012, 10:39:57 AM »
I think it is quite simple - this is the best Canon can do at this price point. I believe Canon is still struggling with the production yields of is high MP full frame sensors.

This 20 MP full frame could very well be the same sensor as in the 5D, but produced to less exacting standards, by either grouping/averaging or ignoring under-performing pixels. It is a common practice in sensor production. Sony does the same with its FF sensors.

K-amps

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 10:44:30 AM »
According to Canon USA the image format of 6D is 35.8mm x 23.9mm, 5D2 is 36mm x 24mm.
I guess Canon just trim down the 5D2's sensor a bit. Maybe the AF is also modified from the 9 point AF in the 5D2. In this way, Canon is able to use these 4 years old parts to create a new body, reduce the overstocked 5D2 sensors and AF module and cut the cost a lot. Three birds with one stone.

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 10:44:30 AM »

Gothmoth

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2012, 10:45:08 AM »
I think it is quite simple - this is the best Canon can do at this price point. I believe Canon is still struggling with the production yields of is high MP full frame sensors.

high MP fullframe sensors... high compared to what?  ;)



Quote
I think it is quite simple - this is the best Canon can do at this price point. I believe Canon is still struggling with the production yields of is high MP full frame sensors.

so they decided to put money in R&D to produce yet another FF sensor instead of using the 5D MK2 sensor?

if it is a new developed sensor and not some camouflaged 5D MK2 sensor.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 10:47:58 AM by Gothmoth »

K-amps

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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2012, 10:46:24 AM »
According to Canon USA the image format of 6D is 35.8mm x 23.9mm, 5D2 is 36mm x 24mm.
I guess Canon just trim down the 5D2's sensor a bit. Maybe the AF is also modified from the 9 point AF in the 5D2. In this way, Canon is able to use these 4 years old parts to create a new body, reduce the overstocked 5D2 sensors and AF module and cut the cost a lot. Three birds with one stone.

yeah... thought about it.

but please... NO.

selling the old sensor as NEW developed sensor to the public.
that would be too cheap even for canon... not?

Taking the 5d2 sensor and making the edges redundant (either via firmware or otherwise) could be construed as a re-design...

You are talking about the company that uses the same 18mp APS-C sensor in multiple offerings... why are you surprised?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 10:53:41 AM by K-amps »
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Re: 6D Sensor... why?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2012, 10:46:24 AM »