Loving Canon right now.

[Axilrod]

I agree with you completely on the price complaints, and have used a similar car analogy trying to explain it.  This Louis CK video is pretty relevant to what you're saying, in summary "everything is amazing and no one is happy." 

Everythings Amazing & Nobodys Happy	Small | Large

[Mark1]

I reckon Canon are secretly miffed with all these newbies with too much money who bleat about bad AF and want more predictive and complicated systems in their cameras. Go buy an EOS1n with it's 5 AF points and run some films through it and learn how to focus properly. It's easy, you just need to understand the principle of depth of field.

Whoomp, there it is!  It never takes long... you guessed it... it's the "go learn how to use your gear and be a better photographer like me" post.  Love it.

I didn't say "like me" but I did mean like most people who don't rely on Canon to take their pictures for them. I think a lot of photographers are handing the creativity over to Canon and relying on them to make up for their shortcomings, like not being able focus in the same manner in which professionals have been doing for the last 50 years.

More af points means more fiddling with the controls and hoping the processor works out what you want it to focus on. That's all I'm saying.

The one thing I will say however is that I think it is very cheeky of Canon not to put the GPS in the 5D3.   

[thelebaron]

I think that integrated gps, wifi and touch are pretty innovative for a dslr, especially a pro level(whether you think it is or not, its at the xD level). It sounds like its the 5d3's sensor just with the 5d2 level features with some evolutionary upgrades. Wifi, gps both sound like nice additions in the same vein as the electronic level, handy to have. Touchscreen hmm meh to me.
I dont understand people wanting this to be cheaper regardless of those features, why would a company place it at the level of another one of its products, namely the 7d? If you mark that down, the 60d price point is threatened and so on and so on. They dont want their products to compete with each other, and it opens up the very likely possibility of successors for those as well. I did expect the af to be at to be all cross types like the t4i's so that part confuses me.

[jfretless]

I think that integrated gps, wifi and touch are pretty innovative for a dslr, especially a pro level(whether you think it is or not, its at the xD level). It sounds like its the 5d3's sensor just with the 5d2 level features with some evolutionary upgrades. Wifi, gps both sound like nice additions in the same vein as the electronic level, handy to have. Touchscreen hmm meh to me.
I dont understand people wanting this to be cheaper regardless of those features, why would a company place it at the level of another one of its products, namely the 7d? If you mark that down, the 60d price point is threatened and so on and so on. They dont want their products to compete with each other, and it opens up the very likely possibility of successors for those as well. I did expect the af to be at to be all cross types like the t4i's so that part confuses me.

No touchscreen on the 6D.

[nicku]

I'm upset, not because of the 6D, but what it could have been.
Face it, the 6D is just an incremental 'upgrade' (and I use the term loosely) to the 5D mk2. Will it take pictures as well as the 5D mk2? Damn straight it will. Is it a fine camera? Well, it's as good as the 5D mk2.

But the 5D mk2 is 4 years old. It was groundbreaking 4 years ago, because there was nothing else like it. Now there's a lot like it, including itself.
The 6D isn't an 'upgrade', it's exactly the same camera with a few fancy 'rebel' features. It may as well be the 5D mk2n, or the 18-55 IS II.

10 years ago, Canon was groundbreaking, the 1Ds was the first FF DSLR that didn't break the bank (much).
Then 4 years ago, they were groundbreaking again, 5Dmk2 was the first FF that 'normal' people could afford, plus it had full HD video. The market went nuts, and justifiably so.
Canon were streets ahead of the competition, with good reason. Their R&D was good, they whipped the pants off anything from the yelow camp.

Then they turned into this:



4 years later, and what do we get? The same as the 5D mk2, give or take 5% better or worse in some areas.

The 5D mk3 was the upgrade for the 5D mk2, surely. It was the first time since the EOS 3 that top-of-the-line AF came in a non-1-series body. It has good IQ, good low-light. But it wasn't 'groundbreaking' in its price (and in terms of the competition, the D800 is a lot more 'groundbreaking' than the 5D3). The FF-for-the-masses was still the 5D mk2, Canon acknowledged that by keeping the 5D2 in the line-up.

The 6D does nothing. It replaces the 5D mk2. It does nothing to 'upgrade'. And then they have the balls to charge the same or higher than the 5D mk2. And they have even more balls to charge us just a smidge under the D600, for about half-as-much camera.

Nikon are catching up. Maybe in terms of sales, definitely in terms of tech. More power to them.
i'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say, i can't switch camps. Too many lenses, workflow, whatever. I can't afford a 5D3. If i could afford a 6D, i'd rather get a 5D mk2 and a good lens to boot.

The 6D is not a 'bad' camera. But it's 4 years too late, and $500 too much. We expected more.

Is there anything 'wrong' with the 5D mk3? Hell no, it's a great camera. But for that price, it's not 'the best' anymore. Weigh up Pros and Cons of 5D mk3 and D800, and you end up about even. You don't get the same as when you weigh up 5D mk2 vs D700, that was very tipped in Canon's favour.

Is there anything wrong with the EOS M? No, it looks very good. But again, it's just so very "mirrorless? me too!". OK, it's much better than some tiny-sensored things (i'm looking at you, J1). But it's just a Canon-brand NEX. Nothing has that 'excitement', nothing is 'groundbreaking'. FF NEX might be out next year, i'd get excited at that. Digital XPan might get announced tomorrow, i'll get excited at that. Leica just announced an M with Liveview. That may be 'incremental' from the M9, but when you realise that it's the first FF Mirrorless on which you can mount almost *any* FF lens ever made, that's exciting (it's unaffordable, but it's still exciting).


Does that make it our fault, for expecting Canon to continue to be 'groundbreaking', to be 'exciting'?
Yes, i'll wear that.
I expected more.
I will never expect anything 'exceptional' from Canon again.

You read my thoughts...

[Chuck Alaimo]

my take..I can be mad at a canon product but not canon as a whole.  I like my mk3.  And my 7d served me well.  And my 24-70 and 70-200 truly rock.  Would love to get my hands on the v2 of the 70-200.  So I'm not mad at canon as a whole.  But, I do not like the 6d, at least on paper.  I guess we'll have to see the quality of the new sensor.   Maybe it will surprise us?  If it can hold its own at higher ISO's than the mk2 (maybe even close to the mk3, would love that but is highly doubtful of it too).  If it can, great, but what of the AF?  Is it back to center point recompose?  If that's the case, yeah I can make it work but do i want to do that?  I'd accept it if I were to snag a 5d2, but not on something brand new.  Bottom line, will I buy it.  Pretty sure the answer is no.  As it stands, I'm saving towards a second mk3 or a used 1dmk4,.  Has canon lost me as a customer, no, but as a buyer of this particular product, most likely yes.

[nicku]

let's compare the 7D with the 60D...

launch price: 7D $1699 ; 60D $1099. The price difference between the cameras is $600.

the specs difference is huge; many of us know them, but let me remind them:

7D features over 60D

- better body construction ( all magnesium alloy)
- new and much better AF
- improved shutter life
- Faster shutter speed
- CF card slot
- much better weather sealing
- 100% frame coverage
- bigger pentaprism
- Dual Digic 4 processors
- better LCD ( top and back of the camera)
- in camera AFMA
- camera joystick

 and many others.....

Judging by this comparison i came to one conclusion : 

If they wanted to produce a better camera than the current 6D specs they could have done without affecting the profit very much.

The new 6D in my opinion was designed by Canon as a milch cow. I believe this plan will backfire  due to the greed of high revenue /unit sold.

Nikon has a different marketing strategy... lower revenue/unit sold , but high number of sales.

[larams67]

Except in the BMW analogy people do not buy thousands of dollars worth of equipment that will only fit that BMW.

They are not tied to the car in the same way as specific camera users are. Be it Nikon, Canon or whoever.

So in a sense we are tied to our choice of camera makers and are having to rely on them to stay up with technology and give us the best they can and also at fair prices.

A lot of people right now on Canons side aren't feeling like that is happening. It doesn't appear to me like Canon is working nearly as hard as Nikon is to satisfy it's users and attract new ones.

The fact of the matter is. For me it's not Canons superior products that are keeping me with them. It's purely the economics of losing a few thousand dollars selling my old gear and having to buy all new lenses and flash systems for Nikon. Personally I think Canon knows this is a common mentality and they play off it.

Simply put they are milking us.

[EchoLocation]

This car analogy is not a good one OP. Cars are completely different.
First of all, we aren't comparing a BMW  to VW, we are comparing Honda to Toyota, or BMW to Mercedes.... of course it would be unfair to compare prices of a BMW(Canon 1D/5D series) to a VW(7D/Rebel)
Two cameras at the same price point are being compared, the 6D and the D600, or 5DIII and D800. The 6D's specs just don't look any better to me than the 5DII's. In fact, i'd probably rather have a 5DII than a 6D. The only problem is, is that the 5DII has been out for 4 years, and I have never really wanted it. I want a FF camera with better, more expansive AF. If I had wanted the 5DII I would of bought it over a year ago new when it was selling for 2000 or less, or refurbished from Canon's CLP. So, to me, Canon isn't offering as good or as exciting of products as Nikon is at this point..... add to this a $2300 new 24-70(the lens I want the most) and i'm overall unhappy with my choices in Canon. I'm buying a D600 and 24-70 2.8 for around 3800 dollars, instead of a 5DIII(I wouldn't consider the 6D) and 24-70 II for $5200.
While Canon is a great company I'm not sure that
Second, cameras are part of an overall system. When you choose to buy Canon or Nikon bodies or glass you are stating your loyalty to these companies by investing in an overall system of lenses and bodies. This is nothing like choosing to buy a car.

[Marsu42]

Reading through recent forum posts on here, I get the impression that most people have gotten really fed up with the company and their products...

Because Canon a) shamelessly exploits brand loyalties (misplaced as they may be, but I've been shooting Canon for two decades) and b) deliberately cripple "lesser" cameras to make users upgrade (60d vs 50d: no afma = 7d upgrade; 6d vs 5d2: no true center cross sensor @f2.8 = 5d3 upgrade).

let's compare the 7D with the 60D...
launch price: 7D $1699 ; 60D $1099. The price difference between the cameras is $600.
the specs difference is huge; many of us know them, but let me remind them:
7D features over 60D

But when the 60d was released, the 7d hadn't dropped in price as much as the 5d3 now - and paying $1100->$1700 is different than $2100->$2800, no matter the absolute difference. I think Canon expects the 6d to drop in price very fast, that's why they set a high start point.

Btw: we'll have to see about the real world af and sensor performance of the 6d, because the 60d (also?) has better iq than the 7d due to less banding and it also added some gimmicks (60d: swivel screen, 6d: wifi/gps). The most important thing about the 6d is that it most likely will run Magic Lantern :-)

[tomscott]

I will judge when we have an actual idea about how this camera works, as no one has picked it up and used it yet to review it. Until then you can argue the specs until your blue in the face.

Although a few people might be eating their words. This product isnt for me but doesn't mean its not for anyone else. A lot of people on here fancy themselves as pros but I wonder how many actually are.

You wont be able to compare the 5DMKII to the 6D because by the time it comes out it will have been discontinued. Anyone who makes money from photography doesn't buy used, as its a risk. Any down time means money lost, so the only cameras you can compare it to in Canons line up are the 5DMKIII and the 1DX.

[nicku]

Although a few people might be eating their words. This product isnt for me but doesn't mean its not for anyone else. A lot of people on here fancy themselves as pros but I wonder how many actually are.

You wont be able to compare the 5DMKII to the 6D because by the time it comes out it will have been discontinued. Anyone who makes money from photography doesn't buy used, as its a risk. Any down time means money lost, so the only cameras you can compare it to in Canons line up are the 5DMKIII and the 1DX.

+1

[AvTvM]

Sentiment against Canon from many of its customers comes from the fact, that Canon has been massively losing ground over the last 4 years against Nikon, Sony.
5 years ago Canon CMOS sensors ruled supreme. They got complacent, now the situation is reversed. Canon is not able to come up with fully competitive cameras - especially in the "enthusiast" user segment and especially for (stills) photographers.  Too much attention seems to be going into video crap all over. Canon should make the C-line camcorders for the video crowd, and should stop bending over backwards to those cheapo-video freaks who want to use DSLRs for video ... the single most unsuited imaging gear for that purpose. These days, a proper HD full frame HD camcorder can be had for 3k ... so no need any longer to abuse DSLRs for HD video stuff.

On top of that comes Canons arrogance, its incredibly infuriating "market differentiation" by crippling not only hardware, but even firmware functions, that do not cost a thing. Combined with ludicrous price hikes all the time. 6D would have been ok as a base level "FF rebel" ...  at 1 grand ... but 2 grand ... how ridiculous, when 2.800 USD will get you a Nikon D800.

Canon will pay the price very soon. They will lose market leadership for interchangeable lens cameras in 2013. Deservedly so! They really need a wake-up call. And kick out their geriatric croporate brass.

I will contribute to that wake up call. Once I "upgrade" from my current 7D to FF and need to sell my EF-S glass anyway 10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro I will also sell my EF glass 40/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2.0, 70-200/2.8 II and take my money elsewhere, if all Canon has to offer is overpriced and underspecced cr*p.   

[Cannon Man]

This post is not intended to start a war on this forum, but I just wanted to voice my support for Canon at this point in time. Reading through recent forum posts on here, I get the impression that most people have gotten really fed up with the company and their products... I for one can't quite understand why? Call me a fanboy (whatever, I've also shot Nikon dslr, and going back a few years...ahem decades... Minoltas and Pentax 35mm slrs), but the sheer choice right now is brilliant if you ask me. Last year I was in the position of wanting to upgrade to Full Frame, and at the time there was literally only one (I will stand corrected on this - please do let me know) body in the canon lineup that I could consider for FF: The 5DII, which is what I bought. I've been very, very happy with my purchase, but alas, if Iwas making the jump right now, like a lot of people seem to be, I would have the choice of 4 bodies: 1DX, 6D, 5DII or 5DIII - seems to me like a great time to be entering the canon fullframe arena!?

I'm interested to hear why people are becoming more and more unhappy with canon products? If it's the price, in my opinion this doesn't really count... I know I'm gonna take some flack for this, but you get what you pay for and if you can;t afford it, either save your money or look elsewhere. I would like to drive a BMW M5, but I can't afford it. Instead I drive a humble VW golf. Doesn't stop me lusting after the M5, but I wouldn't start complaining to BMW about the price, and demand it drops down to VW pricing. It's simply out of my reach at this point. Tough totty.

As far as I can see it's a great time to be doing photography and canon is still the first port of call for me. My 5DII still takes awesome shots and I intend to keep it for another 5 years, much like my 400D before that.

Finally someone posted something decent! You read my thoughts. No matter how positive the thread starts it always turns to hating canon. Most of the time the prices tick people off.
I don't usually read past the second page because it is just canon hate on a canon forum.

I'm just happy there is a great selection of lenses and camera bodies out there that let me do exactly what i need to do.

Please switch to nikon already if you don't like any cameras that canon makes or stop complaining.

[hyles]

I think IQ of 6D will turn to be at least as good as 5DIII.
I don't think d600 is better, it is different, but i do think that what is missing to 6D is the fact that canon fans cannot say "Canon is better". It seems to me that it is not really importat what the camera can do, but it is more importat that it can do it better than any nikon. So it is allway canon vs nikon, " I have canon, so canon must be better" otherway i'll be uppset.
Diego