Is it time for the "CEO" of Canon's DSLR division to resign?

[freezehead]

Funniest thread of the year =)))))

[JR]

... For example, I haven't heard very many wedding/event  togs wishing  for lower fps, worse AF, or higher MP, and I don't hear many complaints about the 5D3's IQ (including DR)  at ISO 3200. 

yeah not at ISO3200 at ISO3200 it has very good DR (only 1DX and D4 and D3s are better and the D3s is so much lower res it doesn't really count) it's at ISO100-200 or 400 where the DR is bad. The high iso DR on the 5D3 is better than any camera other than the 1DX and D4 basically.
[/quote]

+1.  Unfortunately shooting outside at ISO 100 even with the 1DX which I feel has the best Canon sensor, the Nikon D4 beats it if the scene has brights spots and shadows...  (I did not mention the D800 because that is not really a comparable camera but still...Canon is way behind here)...

[LostArk]

The 6D AF is sensitive down to -3 EV. The 5D II is only sensitive to -0.5 EV, and the D600 is only sensitive to -1 EV. I'd take the 6D's new AF system over a few extra cross type points any day. Because the 6D is full frame, you couldn't just stick the 7D AF module into it unless you wanted the points to be uselessly clustered in the center. If you want a completely redesigned pro AF module, you already can get that with the 5D III. As for flash sync, yeah 1/180 is disappointing, but that just gives me an excuse to keep my 7D even longer. 7D FOREVER

[PeterJ]

GPS, WiFi, and built in wireless flash trigger would not likely work very well through the full magnesium body of the 5D3 or 1DX.   I'm not stating that as a fact just speculation.  Someone else may know with more certainty.

The lowest frequency of those is the approximately 900MHz / 30cm flash trigger, normally to shield something properly as a rule of thumb you need holes no larger than 1/20 the wavelength, or about 1.5cm. The photos of camera frames I've seen always have huge openings for the sensor, LCD and connectors. The GPS is probably the most problematic because of the small signal strengh to start with, but some antennae are under 10mm long so the cut-out needed would be much smaller than the top LCD.

Also shielding needs a proper ground to work effectively which a camera normally doesn't have. For example my 900MHz cell phone works just fine in a solid steel filing cabinet. So in general I can't see they'd be any huge problems, it'd just need a few additional small holes in the frame depending on where the antenna were located.

[aj1575]

Innovation? No.
Image quality? No.
Features? No.
Ripping off customers? Yes.

Canon still has the largest market share in the DSLR market, so the position of the CEO is not in question.

Innovation: Is a megapixel race innovative? (D800), and translucent mirrors are also nothin new (just a way to differentiate Sony cameras from Nikon and Canon)
Image Qualitiy: according DXOmark definitly not, but real world shooters are very happy with their 5D3 espacially in low light, and the Rebel-Line wins most comparisons in IQ compared to other DSLR's (again, not in synthetic DXOmark test, but in real world tests.
Features: I'm not sure about what features you are talking about. There are features, and there are gimmicks...
Ripping of costumers: This is not Canons problem. At a certain price there is a demand for certain products, and an offer. Those two meet somewhere, and it seems that Canon can sell a lot of stuff at the price they ask.

Also interesting, if Canon cameras are as bad as you say, so why can they sell more cameras than Nikon at a higher price?

[dilbert]

In what way is Canon a market leading DSLR division?

Innovation? No.
Image quality? No.
Features? No.
Ripping off customers? Yes.

Canon still has the largest market share in the DSLR market, so the position of the CEO is not in question.

Currently...

Innovation: Is a megapixel race innovative? (D800), and translucent mirrors are also nothin new (just a way to differentiate Sony cameras from Nikon and Canon)

Innovations... the question I asked is how is Canon a market leader in DSLRs for innovation. What you've said kind of backs up my point - they haven't innovated in any specific way of significance.

Image Qualitiy: according DXOmark definitly not, but real world shooters are very happy with their 5D3 espacially in low light

Happy with low light amongst their owners does not mean that they are a market leader in that category.

Again, the statement made was that Canon is a market leader in DSLRs, my questions are searching for ways in which that is true.

and the Rebel-Line wins most comparisons in IQ compared to other DSLR's (again, not in synthetic DXOmark test, but in real world tests.

Real world tests by random people are generally not scientific in nature and thus it is hard to compare results of test A by person B with the results of test C by person D. Unless the same test is carried out by the same person, comparison is meaningless. Thus IQ tests by companies such as DxO and websites like dpreview are the only ones that have any real meaning.

Features: I'm not sure about what features you are talking about. There are features, and there are gimmicks...

I'm not referring to specific features but rather does Canon provide cameras with "market leading" features, to which the answer seems to be an emphatic "No".

Also interesting, if Canon cameras are as bad as you say, so why can they sell more cameras than Nikon at a higher price?

The 1Ds series matched the D*x in price ($7999?) at launch.
Other cameras from Canon have generally been cheaper than Nikon ... eg.
The 5D2 was less expensive than the D700 and traditionally, this is always how I've seen Canon.
Now Canon is more expensive (1DX vs D4, 5D3 vs D800).

[dizeaz]

I don't understand why people think that Canon owes them something. If you think the price is high don't buy. If you think the product is bad -- don't buy. You choose.
When it comes to Canon's CEO, I highly doubt our opinions count because we don't own shares.

[Marsu42]

It is NOT our business! In fact Canon is a nice business (no pun intended!). What we can do is buy or not buy their products...

Canon cares not only about market share, but most likely more about revenue. And here they are falling into the "more of the same" trap: If something doesn't work/sell as expected, re-release the stuff (5d2->6d), start the big marketing machine and raise the price. Market share in a tiny sector of the Canon enterprise might get smaller, i.e. the enthusiast's market, but revenue stays the same and no one gets fired. Unless they run out of breath.

Btw to multiple posters: It has been discussed that it's absolutely legit to care if one has invested not in Canon shares, but in Canon products. If some people feel the discussion should end with the decision to buy a product or not, a rumors site maybe isn't for you.

[weixing]

Hi,
   Conspiracy theory: Canon and Nikon plan to earn more money from us.
1) Canon come out better DSLR and lens than Nikon and flood the internet that Canon DSLR is way better than Nikon: Many dump their Nikon DSLR and lens and switch to Canon.

2) Then Nikon come out even better DSLR and lens than Canon and flood the internet that Nikon DSLR is way better than Canon: Many dump their Canon DSLR and lens (probably those who switch to Canon) and switch to Nikon.

3) Goto 1

   Both Canon and Nikon earns more $$$ from us... ha ha ha 
   
   Have a nice day.

[marekjoz]

We'll be always unhappy and still buy the gear. After having bought we'll proove, that it's better than Nikon. Then we'll wait for a new toy speculating our dreamy specifications and dissapointed with them we'll be unhappy again.
So the only way to make you happy is to go to shop and buy the damn gear, so you could start be happy again :-)

[aj1575]

Innovations... the question I asked is how is Canon a market leader in DSLRs for innovation. What you've said kind of backs up my point - they haven't innovated in any specific way of significance.

Image Qualitiy: according DXOmark definitly not, but real world shooters are very happy with their 5D3 espacially in low light

Happy with low light amongst their owners does not mean that they are a market leader in that category.

Again, the statement made was that Canon is a market leader in DSLRs, my questions are searching for ways in which that is true.

Features: I'm not sure about what features you are talking about. There are features, and there are gimmicks...

I'm not referring to specific features but rather does Canon provide cameras with "market leading" features, to which the answer seems to be an emphatic "No".

If you only trust DXOMark or dpreview, then check out their test of the 5D3 and the D800. The overall rating shows both cameras at the same level. The D800 has some advantage in Image quality, but it is nowhere as big as DXOMark suggests (and dpreview works with real pictures, and not with some synthetic measurements.

Conclusion: The EOS 5D3 has not an image quality problem, it just not the leader of the pack anymore (maybe we will see the rumored EOS 3D in the 40MP range, and this will change the picture again).

Let's go to innovation; who do you think is the leader in innovation in the DSLR market?


Again, Canon is doing fine. Their products make sense. So the call for the CEO to resign is nonsense.
And again, a question what are the other companies doing better than Canon?

[dilbert]

Again, Canon is doing fine. Their products make sense. So the call for the CEO to resign is nonsense.
And again, a question what are the other companies doing better than Canon?

Do you seriously not look at what other camera manufacturers are doing?

If you wanted to know what Canon could do better, you would start with everything that Magic Lantern does.

Possibly the best innovation that I have seen in the last 4 years has been the arrival of the possibility of "camera apps" (Sony NEX-6)

Things that Canon are missing out on, in no particular order:
- live view: zebra stripes
- live view: focus peaking
- control: activate MLU with shutter timer
- n-second variable self-timer delay (rather than 2 or 10)
- 100% magnification on image review for 1:1 display

Ah, I am forgetting Canon's biggest innovation that they manfully put on so many cameras:
- the direct print button

[marekjoz]

Again, Canon is doing fine. Their products make sense. So the call for the CEO to resign is nonsense.
And again, a question what are the other companies doing better than Canon?

Do you seriously not look at what other camera manufacturers are doing?

If you wanted to know what Canon could do better, you would start with everything that Magic Lantern does.

Possibly the best innovation that I have seen in the last 4 years has been the arrival of the possibility of "camera apps" (Sony NEX-6)

Things that Canon are missing out on, in no particular order:
- live view: zebra stripes
- live view: focus peaking
- control: activate MLU with shutter timer
- n-second variable self-timer delay (rather than 2 or 10)
- 100% magnification on image review for 1:1 display

Ah, I am forgetting Canon's biggest innovation that they manfully put on so many cameras:
- the direct print button

I'd say there are several target groups regarding Canon DSLR's gear:
1. People who stuck with glasses, workflow and knowledge of the gear - they will not switch but consider from time to time
2. People who switch from (ot to) other labels - there are such people, not only switching the other side :-)
3. Newbies, who didn't decide where to go

If you take a look on the first group, I'd say that specs of 6D have no influence on them.
The second group: APS-C users who have one or two EF glasses and counted to go FF in some time? Is 6D too bad for them? Are they all 7D advanced users who will miss advanced AF?
The third group - maybe the most important for Canon, as they are new potential customers. Beside the second group - this might be someone, for whom 6D is targeted for.
The sales numbers will show if they miscalculated the needs of 2nd and the third group, but are you in any of them? Do you look at this market with the eyes of the newbie or APS-C user intending to go FF? The real fight is in the shop at the shelve were the seller advices what to buy. What the seller has the better profit on? I think the more expensive gear but I don't know what are the producers' policies in this regard. One word from the seller like - "you will most likely faster sell the used Canon gear if you want to buy the better one in the future" may change the whole perspective in the eyes of the buyer. "What breaks more often: Canon or Nikon?", "What best photographers use"?, "Who has the better customer service?"
This is something what CEO there thinks about - how to make a profit and not how to make people happy.

I am also somehow dissapointed with the prices and the value given but as a customer demanding more for less. However decisions made regarding a new product are not only based on their specs and price. Do we see the wider perspective? Do they really indend to change their headquarter to Lake Failure or they don't see that someone's chagning the place's name in the night? :-)

[dilbert]

...
This is something what CEO there thinks about - how to make a profit and not how to make people happy.
...

Question is, if they're not making reviewers happy then it seems unlikely that they'll make anyone that reads the reviews happy, how long can they go on being successful and top-selling?

The point here being that it isn't a small number of people bemoaning the 6D, it is a rather large chorus across the entire Internet. In the thread on this website linked to the "Preorders" for the 6D, not one person on the first page of comments bragged about having placed a pre-order for the 6D. When the 1DX and 5D3 came out, people were chest-beating over being early to get in line. What's not clear if this is just people finally waking up (or getting sick of) to Canon under-delivering or if it is just this camera that is completely underwhelming.

[Marsu42]

Question is, if they're not making reviewers happy then it seems unlikely that they'll make anyone that reads the reviews happy, how long can they go on being successful and top-selling?

Unfortunately they probably can go on for a long time. Many potential buyers of the 6d won't read expert photog reviews but amazon.com "sturdy body & got great shots from this", or they'll buy it in a store where gps & wifi outshine everything else. How many of these people will have a problem with 1/180s x-sync (ugh)? No 100% vf (so what)? No cross-type af points (whatever that might be)? Yeah, right.

I hope a Nikon d600 is put into every showcase next to the 6d - "4mp more? I'll buy it", might be weird justice at last