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Author Topic: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon  (Read 126966 times)

Razor2012

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #180 on: October 12, 2012, 06:29:00 PM »
And the winner is.........
                           

                           Nikon           Canon
Sensor  :                1                    0
Lens      :               0                    1
Body      :               0                    1
Flash     :                1                    0
Metering:               1                    1    (tie)
Fan        :                0                  0     (we argue so much none of us deserve any points)
Total     :                 3                   3

Winner cannot be determined at this time.

I don't know, the 600EX-RT is a damn good flash.

Have to agree there. The latest round of flash tech from Canon is pretty mind bowing. I'd give that point to Canon myself.

So I guess the winner can be determined at this time.    ;D ;)
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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #180 on: October 12, 2012, 06:29:00 PM »

jrista

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #181 on: October 12, 2012, 06:35:02 PM »
I don't know what you do to your files but my 7D even when heavily processed, still has enough detail to make a full-res print.

Wow, beautiful example of some Canon recovery.

I don't know how anyone can see one of those samples from either Sarangiman or Mikael are realistic. If Canon sensors were THAT noisy (and I'm not saying they don't have worse read noise than an Exmor, but read noise is only the lower 0.05% of the  maximum possible signal level in a Canon), why is it that we don't see noisy photographs all over the net from Canon cameras? There are millions of people who use Canon DSLR's, and many tens of millions more (if not billions) of photographs uploaded onto the net yearly by those same people. If Canon noise was really as bad in the average case as Sarangiman and Mikael and all the rest of the D800 fanboy club insist, why don't we see evidence of that every time we look at a photo taken with a Canon camera?

Seriously. Underexposing a D800 by MANY STOPS for the purpose of demonstrating the Exmor sensor's improved DR in the shadows is one thing. Underexposing both a D800 and a 5D III or any other as a means of demonstrating how supposedly utterly terrible Canon cameras are in a supposed real-life situation is just a farce. A hoax. It's simply not the case. I have the same issue with that as I do with DXO claiming the D800 has a sensor capable of capturing 14.4 stops. It's misleading and false.

MarkII

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #182 on: October 12, 2012, 08:21:24 PM »

I have the same issue with that as I do with DXO claiming the D800 has a sensor capable of capturing 14.4 stops. It's misleading and false.
DXO do not claim that the D800 sensor has 14.4 stops of dynamic range. They claim that the sensor has a range of 13.2 stops at full resolution. The 14.3 stop DR is the result of downsampling to 8 megapixels. You need to read the actual measurement graphs and understand them and the methodology that they use (and why they do this). No one has given any evidence to suggest that the DXO figures are substantially incorrect.

I do not understand why this is such a big issue for some people here. I think it is good that cameras like the D800 exist and it is important that companies like DXO publish their findings as it helps put pressure on Canon to improve. You might not want a 5DIV with a significantly better sensor than the 5DII, but other people seemingly do and have clearly explained why more DR would be beneficial to them.

None of this is about whether or not a 5DII/III can take stunning pictures - it is about the range of conditions in which it can take them. Anything which expands that range - whether it be more pixels, more DR, higher-usable ISOs, or a usable AF system  - can only be a good thing for anyone creatively pushing against the boundaries of what is possible today.

jrista

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #183 on: October 12, 2012, 08:34:17 PM »

I have the same issue with that as I do with DXO claiming the D800 has a sensor capable of capturing 14.4 stops. It's misleading and false.
DXO do not claim that the D800 sensor has 14.4 stops of dynamic range. They claim that the sensor has a range of 13.2 stops at full resolution. The 14.3 stop DR is the result of downsampling to 8 megapixels. You need to read the actual measurement graphs and understand them and the methodology that they use (and why they do this). No one has given any evidence to suggest that the DXO figures are substantially incorrect.

I have read it, and actually I couldn't agree more with what you said. The sensor is capable of 13.2 stops of dynamic range, which is an argument I repeatedly make, which is repeatedly me with photos like the ones above. The reason I have a problem with DXO is the 14.4 stop figure is repeated all over the net as an intrinsic ability of the D800, when its really a capability of software (and not necessarily the software most photographers use to scale their images.) As I said...misleading.

I also totally agree that more DR is GOOD. It's actually GREAT, and I can't wait until low read noise, high SNR, and wide ISO latitude are standard fanfare across all brands. But it's not grounds to post photos all over the net that make the cameras from other manufacturers such as Canon look like they came out of the 1990's, simply as a means of arguing up your favored brand. The difference, while important, isn't that big, and non-Exmor cameras are certainly capable of a hell of a lot more than these inane photos that show horrid read noise right up into the highlights from Canon cameras.

It makes the more foolish, unobservant and reactive on the net make rash decisions, such as sell their entire kit(usually at considerable loss) and jump brands (usually at greater cost), when their previous kit was perfectly fine, it just lacks a bit of extra latitude exposure latitude (and not nearly as much as some would have those poor fools think.) There ARE a few reasons to either switch, or add Nikon to your kit. The primary one would be for serious landscape photographers who regularly photograph scenes with extensive DR, and would prefer not to resort to HDR/Fusion techniques. I think many street photographers might find additional DR a handy thing as well.

But the majority of people need to understand that the sample comparisons between various Canon cameras and the D800 are EXPLICITLY performing unrealistic tests, aimed at underexposing photos (sometimes by many, many stops) in order to put Canon cameras in an exceptionally BAD light...the light of pushing shadows from the bottom two stops of DR...something we need rather infrequently in real life (as would be evidenced by the bazillion photos taken with Canon cameras that never exhibit any amount of noise anywhere remotely close to the likes of the photos posted by Sarangiman and Mikael).



To the argument that you *have* to underexpose to preserve highlights. While this is a bit of an extreme example, I think it demonstrates that the argument for underexposing considerably to preserve highlights, as in the examples posted by Sarangiman and Mikael, is a fallacy (or some kind of farce):


Intended Exposure: 1/800s f/7.1 @ ISO 100 | Actual Exposure: 1/100s f/5.6 @ ISO 100

When I first saw the photo above (taken with my Canon 7D), I thought it was a total goner. As far as I could tell, not only had I blown the highlights, but the entire shot except for a few parts of the dragonfly itself. To my own amazement, The entire photo was recoverable, and only a few bits of specular highlight were actually "blown". A fact that did not diminish the final results by any means. I was able to fully recover those pixels that appeared to be pure white (which, on closer inspection, are packed into the levels just below pure white). Since the image was so over-exposed (by nearly four stops), the shadows are nearly noiseless, lacking any amount of artifacts from read noise:



I can't speak much to Nikon cameras, as I don't use them much. However when it comes to Canon cameras, they offer quite a bit of exposure latitude in the highlights. While the example above is extreme (much like the examples of D800 shadow recovery), the point is you can use the exposure latitude available to you in a Canon camera to get FAR better results than indicated Sarangiman, Mikael and a whole host of other people producing similar types of comparisons around the net.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 08:59:26 PM by jrista »

ThuiQuaDayNe

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #184 on: October 12, 2012, 10:54:02 PM »
And the winner is.........
                           

                           Nikon           Canon
Sensor  :                1                    0
Lens      :               0                    1
Body      :               0                    1
Flash     :                1                    0
Metering:               1                    1    (tie)
Fan        :                0                  0     (we argue so much none of us deserve any points)
Total     :                 3                   3

Winner cannot be determined at this time.

I don't know, the 600EX-RT is a damn good flash.

Have to agree there. The latest round of flash tech from Canon is pretty mind bowing. I'd give that point to Canon myself.

So I guess the winner can be determined at this time.    ;D ;)

Thanks Razor,  you just extended this thread for another 14 pages.    ;D

Razor2012

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #185 on: October 13, 2012, 02:01:01 AM »
And the winner is.........
                           

                           Nikon           Canon
Sensor  :                1                    0
Lens      :               0                    1
Body      :               0                    1
Flash     :                1                    0
Metering:               1                    1    (tie)
Fan        :                0                  0     (we argue so much none of us deserve any points)
Total     :                 3                   3

Winner cannot be determined at this time.

I don't know, the 600EX-RT is a damn good flash.

Have to agree there. The latest round of flash tech from Canon is pretty mind bowing. I'd give that point to Canon myself.

So I guess the winner can be determined at this time.    ;D ;)

Thanks Razor,  you just extended this thread for another 14 pages.    ;D

Heh you're welcome.  Btw, just mentioning the word Canon seems to create quite a stir.   ;)
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wayno

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #186 on: October 13, 2012, 04:12:29 AM »
Or the words "DXOMark", it would seem..

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #186 on: October 13, 2012, 04:12:29 AM »

jthomson

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #187 on: October 13, 2012, 07:12:18 AM »

And the winner is.........
                           

                           Nikon           Canon       Sony     Olympus
Sensor  :                0                   0              1             0
Lens      :               0                   1              0             0
Body      :               0                   1              0             0
Flash     :                1                   0              0             0
Metering:                1                  1               0             0
Fan        :                0                  0               0             1 (Rabid Fans)
Total     :                 2                  3               1             1


And the Winner is......

AdamJ

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #188 on: October 13, 2012, 09:50:43 AM »
This graph shows the forum members' satisfaction with Canon products. Interestingly, the graph shows that levels of satisfaction are consistent despite persistent messages about dynamic range relative to non-Canon products.



jrista

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #189 on: October 13, 2012, 12:04:30 PM »

And the winner is.........
                           

                           Nikon           Canon       Sony     Olympus
Sensor  :                0                   0              1             0
Lens      :               0                   1              0             0
Body      :               0                   1              0             0
Flash     :                1                   0              0             0
Metering:                1                  1               0             0
Fan        :                0                  0               0             1 (Rabid Fans)
Total     :                 2                  3               1             1


And the Winner is......

I would actually rate the cameras (sensor included, so no Sony here) as such, myself:


NikonCanon*
Sensor:  10
Lens:  01
Body:  01
Flash:  11(tie, Canon's just got a LOT better, but Nikon's was always good)
Metering:  1.51(Generally a tie, but Nikon gets an extra half point because ALL of their cameras have good meetering)
Fans:  00(I think we fans are all a little pathetic when you get right down to it. ;P)
Total:  3.54
 

Ivar

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #190 on: October 13, 2012, 01:57:05 PM »
Makes absolutely sense!


I would actually rate the cameras (sensor included, so no Sony here) as such, myself:


NikonCanon*
Sensor:  10
Lens:  01
Body:  01
Flash:  11(tie, Canon's just got a LOT better, but Nikon's was always good)
Metering:  1.51(Generally a tie, but Nikon gets an extra half point because ALL of their cameras have good meetering)
Fans:  00(I think we fans are all a little pathetic when you get right down to it. ;P)
Total:  3.54


Fishnose

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #191 on: October 13, 2012, 06:16:56 PM »
Far better to use a 10 scale. And we can drop the 'fan' thing.
I'm only considering the top end stuff - FF plus 7D and D7000.
If we we to add lower-end DSLRs, the D3200 leapfrogs everything Canon does in APS-C, except for the 'Body' category. So let's leave them out of it.
NikonCanon
Sensor:  97Not much to discuss here
Lens:  89Canon make fantastic lenses, but so do Nikon
Body:  89To a large extent this is a matter of taste, but the Canon grips are slightly better
Flash:  78Canon's new radio control beats Nikon
Metering:  98Nikon metering is bloody good
AF:  98Nikon beats Canon, with the exception of the 1Dx
Total:  5049

And I think that however you look at it, both make bloody fantastic cameras.

Razor2012

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #192 on: October 13, 2012, 06:24:32 PM »
I would have to disagree with AF here, Canon beats Nikon.
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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #192 on: October 13, 2012, 06:24:32 PM »

Razor2012

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #193 on: October 13, 2012, 06:44:01 PM »
Even the 5DIII beats the D800 when it comes to AF.
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Tcapp

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #194 on: October 13, 2012, 08:55:56 PM »
I would have to disagree with AF here, Canon beats Nikon.

I think AF is the biggest advantage canon has right now. That and lenses of course.
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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #194 on: October 13, 2012, 08:55:56 PM »