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Author Topic: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon  (Read 127041 times)

Fishnose

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #210 on: October 16, 2012, 05:20:15 AM »
Far better to use a 10 scale. And we can drop the 'fan' thing.
I'm only considering the top end stuff - FF plus 7D and D7000.
If we we to add lower-end DSLRs, the D3200 leapfrogs everything Canon does in APS-C, except for the 'Body' category. So let's leave them out of it.
NikonCanon
Sensor:  97Not much to discuss here
Lens:  89Canon make fantastic lenses, but so do Nikon
Body:  89To a large extent this is a matter of taste, but the Canon grips are slightly better
Flash:  78Canon's new radio control beats Nikon
Metering:  98Nikon metering is bloody good
AF:  98Nikon beats Canon, with the exception of the 1Dx
Total:  5049

And I think that however you look at it, both make bloody fantastic cameras.

I'm quoting myself here, just to make a point in light of the heated discussion that's been raging about 'Who has the better AF'.

When I gave Nikon 9 and Canon 8 for AF, it was NOT only about the D4 and the 1Dx. It was about all the upper end models from each make combined:

Canon: 1Dx, 5D3, 6D, 5D2, 1DS3, 1D4, 7D,
Nikon: D4, D800, D600, D700, D3x, D3s, D7000.

The 1Dx would certainly seem to be the superior allround sports and low light model. Even if Canon DR is not up to Nikon level. But that's a whole other ballgame  ;)

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #210 on: October 16, 2012, 05:20:15 AM »

sanj

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #211 on: October 16, 2012, 06:38:11 AM »
I had not paid ANY attention to the Canon/Nikon debate so far. But the pictures posted here by Mr. Risedal make me sit up and take notice.
And take notice is the only thing I can do as I have Mr. X, 3 and whole bunch or lenses already.
I was happily cruising along and then I see these photos... :(
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 08:07:14 AM by sanj »

neuroanatomist

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #212 on: October 16, 2012, 08:39:32 AM »
I had NOT paid ANY attention to the Canon/Nikon debate so far. But the pictures posted here by Mr. Risedal make me sit up and take notice.
And take notice is the only thing I can do as I have Mr. X, 3 and whole bunch or lenses already.
I was happily cruising along and then I see these photos... :(

So...one guy takes a few pictures with a specific agenda in mind, deliberately choosing an exposure that is not optimal (and not just a little off - several stops underexposed), and then processes them in ways which may be totally irrelevant to your images, and that makes you doubt your decision to shoot with Canon gear?
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rpt

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #213 on: October 16, 2012, 08:52:52 AM »
I had not paid ANY attention to the Canon/Nikon debate so far. But the pictures posted here by Mr. Risedal make me sit up and take notice.
And take notice is the only thing I can do as I have Mr. X, 3 and whole bunch or lenses already.
I was happily cruising along and then I see these photos... :(
Sanj, you got it wrong! it is that game spot the 6 differences. I found just one! Been looking hard but cant find the other 5...
;)


MarkII

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #214 on: October 16, 2012, 10:37:40 AM »
If you will come with an conclusion instead to defame me  then  write...
I don't think that Neuro's post was trying to be insulting. The point is why should someone suddenly give up their equipment after seeing a posts about limitations in the extreme when they were previously perfectly happy. The images posted only show the transition point at which the image quality from the two cameras moves from being perfectly fine to marginal.

If you were to underexpose by another two or three stops, neither camera would deliver useful results - so following some of the logic in this thread everyone should just give up taking pictures period :-)

The only way to decrease read out noise in a Canos is to halve the exposure one or  twice and  (halve the electrons who has been read out, every stops =halve the amount of electrons ) then we end up at for example  400iso and where banding are not  so visible  but the DR has also reduced

Actually, I don't think that it is quite that simple. Several NR packages now do quite a good job now of removing pattern noise, and if you are really pushing the limits of what should be done you can use Photoshop with multiple exposures (on my camera at least, averaging several frames cleans up the horizontal banding and reduce the general noise floor, while vertical banding appears to be more a DC offset issue and can be reduced by subtracting an average of several dark-frames, which you can do in-camera if your exposures are more than 1s and you turn long-exposure NR on).

Of course, it would be easier if the sensors just performed better and Canon is obviously lagging Sony in absolute performance for now. But any sensor is going to run in to a noise floor eventually and there will always be a point where this is obviously visible and where you need to use unusual techniques if you want to shoot in that region.

RLPhoto

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #215 on: October 16, 2012, 11:23:20 AM »
I had NOT paid ANY attention to the Canon/Nikon debate so far. But the pictures posted here by Mr. Risedal make me sit up and take notice.
And take notice is the only thing I can do as I have Mr. X, 3 and whole bunch or lenses already.
I was happily cruising along and then I see these photos... :(

So...one guy takes a few pictures with a specific agenda in mind, deliberately choosing an exposure that is not optimal (and not just a little off - several stops underexposed), and then processes them in ways which may be totally irrelevant to your images, and that makes you doubt your decision to shoot with Canon gear?

I agree with neuro, Michael is definitely doing something wrong in his processing. Look at my 7D example of recovery and that's not even the best sensor around but easily recovered by NR and good enough for a full-res prints.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9570.180

RLPhoto

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #216 on: October 16, 2012, 11:29:34 AM »
I had NOT paid ANY attention to the Canon/Nikon debate so far. But the pictures posted here by Mr. Risedal make me sit up and take notice.
And take notice is the only thing I can do as I have Mr. X, 3 and whole bunch or lenses already.
I was happily cruising along and then I see these photos... :(

So...one guy takes a few pictures with a specific agenda in mind, deliberately choosing an exposure that is not optimal (and not just a little off - several stops underexposed), and then processes them in ways which may be totally irrelevant to your images, and that makes you doubt your decision to shoot with Canon gear?

I agree with neuro, Michael is definitely doing something wrong in his processing. Look at my 7D example of recovery and that's not even the best sensor around but easily recovered by NR and good enough for a full-res prints.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9570.180

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/36865463
10 stops underexposure from a Pentax with Sony inside

Only a clot would underexpose 10-stops.   ::)

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #216 on: October 16, 2012, 11:29:34 AM »

jrista

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #217 on: October 16, 2012, 11:39:49 AM »



If you were to underexpose by another two or three stops, neither camera would deliver useful results - so following some of the logic in this thread everyone should just give up taking pictures period :-)



Here we  have another statement: If you were to underexpose by another two or three stops, neither camera would deliver useful results

then you have not seen my and others' demonstration of the D7000, D800
it works  very well to under expose these cameras in Raw and I have shown stepping from 100 iso to 1600iso = 4 stops and then do the  correction in CR. try to do that with a canon


You are still missing the point of argument here, though. Yes, it does work well to underexpose those cameras by four stops, then lift the shadows in post. But doing so is an unrealistic test from a real-world standpoint. All it tells you is that IF someone were to accidentally expose their scene incorrectly by a HUGE amount (some 16x incorrectly), then they would have a greater ability to recover. Purposely underexposing by four stops for the purpose of comparing cameras is also an unrealistic real-world comparison.

It does exhibit an issue with how Canon sensors produce read noise...probably thanks to their Bias Offset and the use of negative value readout...which inevitably results in useful image data having half negative values being mixed in with FPN and HVBN noise present in the electronics of the sensor itself.

But repeatedly trotting out -4EV photos lifted +4EV in post as an example of good IQ is just inane. It is entirely unrealistic, as the only time someone MIGHT actually need to do something along those lines would be when they *accidentally* underexposed. Assuming someone did...well, no question that having a D800 is the better camera to support nearly considerable restoration of exposure. No matter what you do, though, a -4EV underexposure on ANY camera is going to  cost you in other ways. It will cost you in contrast, final image dynamic range, color fidelity, etc. etc. If you only use the bottom 5% of the sensors hardware DR, you only have 5% of the total DR to work with in post. The only difference between Canon and Exmor sensors is that Exmor sensors are usable in such a scenario, where as Canon's are not. But its a scenario that MIGHT affect real-world photographers less than 1% of the time at most, when they screw something up...it shouldn't be a normal tactic for any photographer. As such, no photographers are going to experience the kinds of extreme pattern noise you guys cook up in your incredibly unrealistic "comparison" photos on a regular basis.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 12:16:08 PM by jrista »

RLPhoto

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #218 on: October 16, 2012, 11:40:26 AM »
I had NOT paid ANY attention to the Canon/Nikon debate so far. But the pictures posted here by Mr. Risedal make me sit up and take notice.
And take notice is the only thing I can do as I have Mr. X, 3 and whole bunch or lenses already.
I was happily cruising along and then I see these photos... :(

So...one guy takes a few pictures with a specific agenda in mind, deliberately choosing an exposure that is not optimal (and not just a little off - several stops underexposed), and then processes them in ways which may be totally irrelevant to your images, and that makes you doubt your decision to shoot with Canon gear?

I agree with neuro, Michael is definitely doing something wrong in his processing. Look at my 7D example of recovery and that's not even the best sensor around but easily recovered by NR and good enough for a full-res prints.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9570.180

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/36865463
10 stops underexposure from a Pentax with Sony inside

Only a clot would underexpose 10-stops.   ::)

But it works, and doesn't with a Canon

Then shoot pentax and underexpose all your picture's 10 stops if you like.

while real photog's will continue to get correct exposures, since the days of the wet plates to ansel adams to modern digital.

I don't know if anyone has informed you that in the end, the camera doesn't matter. The fleshy device behind the camera matters and how it will get the most of a camera. BTW, where's your portfolio?  :P
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 11:44:29 AM by RLPhoto »

neuroanatomist

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #219 on: October 16, 2012, 12:48:08 PM »
But it works, and doesn't with a Canon, do you understand the difference?
Next, Mikael, you can explain to all of us how if Kobe Bryant had only been using a Nikon camera, with it's awesome ability to lift even completely dark shots to perfectly usable, noise-free images, he would not have had the problems he experienced here...

http://youtu.be/uu-gvSif-f4

We all know about TTL mode, but Nikon cameras, with their perfect sensors, can also shoot in TTLC mode (through the lens cap).   ::) 
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K-amps

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #220 on: October 16, 2012, 01:26:44 PM »
We all know about TTL mode, but Nikon cameras, with their perfect sensors, can also shoot in TTLC mode (through the lens cap).   ::)

 ;D ;D ;D
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lola

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #221 on: October 16, 2012, 01:37:06 PM »
It's very retarded to deny the difference between the two cameras. Even if I was a Canon shareholder and someone from Nikon's board of directors murdered my whole family, I wouldn't try to justify recent Canon sensors.

I've been shooting with Canon since '96. You too? Great, enjoy, but there's no need to do injustice to Nikon.
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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #222 on: October 16, 2012, 01:44:34 PM »
This is getting a bit boring now... a typical outdoors will have a DR of 18-21 stops... so Guess what... the Nikon won't be able to capture it either... so even if you can pee a bit farther, so what?
EOS-80D & Pentax K1
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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #222 on: October 16, 2012, 01:44:34 PM »

RLPhoto

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #223 on: October 16, 2012, 02:05:20 PM »
:|

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #224 on: October 16, 2012, 02:31:17 PM »
I had NOT paid ANY attention to the Canon/Nikon debate so far. But the pictures posted here by Mr. Risedal make me sit up and take notice.
And take notice is the only thing I can do as I have Mr. X, 3 and whole bunch or lenses already.
I was happily cruising along and then I see these photos... :(

So...one guy takes a few pictures with a specific agenda in mind, deliberately choosing an exposure that is not optimal (and not just a little off - several stops underexposed), and then processes them in ways which may be totally irrelevant to your images, and that makes you doubt your decision to shoot with Canon gear?

I agree with neuro, Michael is definitely doing something wrong in his processing. Look at my 7D example of recovery and that's not even the best sensor around but easily recovered by NR and good enough for a full-res prints.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9570.180

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/36865463
10 stops underexposure from a Pentax with Sony inside

Only a clot would underexpose 10-stops.   ::)

But it works, and doesn't with a Canon

Then shoot pentax and underexpose all your picture's 10 stops if you like.

while real photog's will continue to get correct exposures, since the days of the wet plates to ansel adams to modern digital.

I don't know if anyone has informed you that in the end, the camera doesn't matter. The fleshy device behind the camera matters and how it will get the most of a camera. BTW, where's your portfolio?  :P

 ::)
You do realize that Ansel Adams was the guy who went to almost crazy lengths to get the right sort of film and would spend endless hours in the lab to extend and manipulate DR as best as he could and was not just an artist but about as interest in the tech side too as you could get and that he was interested in the tech side not just for tech alone but also because of the practical implications for his real world shooting....  ;)


And it actually is nice to be able to rescue a blown shot if need be no? But also keep in mind, that it is only a little bit about that, mostly people are talking about wanting more DR while at the same time exposing as they had hoped for the scene....

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Re: DxOMark Sensor Performance: Nikon vs. Canon
« Reply #224 on: October 16, 2012, 02:31:17 PM »