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Author Topic: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]  (Read 85696 times)

jrista

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2012, 08:51:46 PM »
If one of the OP's is correct and this 46MP sensor is a Foveon sensor, this is similar from what I understand is in Sigma DP MERRILL point and shoot that has a few good reviews.  However if it was this simple and that great, wouldn't this already be a trend by now?

Last year I met a photographer who actually had done extensive research on this Foveon sensor and his advise to me then was to 'give them some time to perfect it'.  He was shooting a Canon  5D2 and had numerous Sigma and Canon lenses but advised me to stay clear of that technology for now.

Your thoughts?

Correct! If I m not mistaken, the foveon research at Sigma was quite inflamed and there were many issues and delays. Not sure if Foveon had equal amount of R&D thrown at it as bayer filter sensors. Though I do think foveon is based on a more efficient idea... My hope (or perhaps rather wish) is that Canon has taken the time to, even if not perfect, improve the technology... To be seen though...

Cheers!

Based on the patents from Canon for their layered design and Sigma for the Foveon, the two designs are quite different. They would really have to be. Canon cannot create a layered sensor design that was the same as but somewhat improved over the Foveon...that would be infringing on Sigma's technology. Canon is less likely to improve Foveon as it is to design an entirely new approach to layered sensors. From what I can tell based on Canon's current patent, they may not actually be producing a "layered" sensor as much as they are taking a new approach towards utilizing the photodiode area in each pixel...some of it is allocated to red, some to green, some to blue, utilizing silicon itself to filter the light (same as Foveon), allowing a "single pixel" to detect all three colors. I am not sure what the real pros/cons of that might be, or if thats actually what they will end up doing in the long run. It seems more like a modified CFA approach than a true layered design like Foveon, and it might resolve one of the key issues with Foveon's design...differentiating how many electrons in a given photodiode are to be allocated to blue, green, and red readouts.

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2012, 08:51:46 PM »

stewy

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #106 on: September 25, 2012, 12:09:56 AM »
My only concerns are:
1. How much ISO at the top end will be sacrificed for this. I'd hope that this can still do 3200-6400 natively.
2. How much will something like this cost? A kidney?
3. I'd have to upgrade my computer. I'm using a 40D right now (10MP RAW) and my computer is managing fine. But post processing times will drop considerably when editing a 46MP file.
4. Storage space. This would require huge CF cards plus great disk space. My workflow usually involves converting to TIFF format then additional editing in Photoshop.

With a 46MP resolution, and if its priced higher than the 1DX, its going to be compared to medium format digital cameras. Unless Canon pulls off a miracle with the sensor, or use a MF sensor, it won't stand a chance when stacked up against the big boys.

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #107 on: September 25, 2012, 01:32:41 AM »
Postproduction with files from big megapixel cameras will slow down you workflow dramatically.

I have a very fast computer and graphic card, but if I load the 60 megapixel Raw or Tiff files from the Hasselbald into it, the computer seems to be lame duck.

If you want to store big files you have to invest in additional harddrives or san´s.

Remember that you can make prints up to DIN A2 with a camera between 20-24 megapixels.

Hint: There are a few different prototypes in the field for testing.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 01:34:23 AM by M.ST »

well_dunno

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2012, 05:20:31 AM »
From what I can tell based on Canon's current patent, they may not actually be producing a "layered" sensor as much as they are taking a new approach towards utilizing the photodiode area in each pixel...some of it is allocated to red, some to green, some to blue, utilizing silicon itself to filter the light (same as Foveon), allowing a "single pixel" to detect all three colors. I am not sure what the real pros/cons of that might be, or if thats actually what they will end up doing in the long run. It seems more like a modified CFA approach than a true layered design like Foveon, and it might resolve one of the key issues with Foveon's design...differentiating how many electrons in a given photodiode are to be allocated to blue, green, and red readouts.

Thanks! That's useful! Do you have any info on to what extent photosite size would affect the DR and ISO performance? with the gapless microlens tech, and some 15.3 MP on the sensor the photosites would be fairly large, I imagine, but I wonder how that would translate into DR and ISO performance on a layered sensor...

Cheers!

jrista

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2012, 03:09:35 PM »
From what I can tell based on Canon's current patent, they may not actually be producing a "layered" sensor as much as they are taking a new approach towards utilizing the photodiode area in each pixel...some of it is allocated to red, some to green, some to blue, utilizing silicon itself to filter the light (same as Foveon), allowing a "single pixel" to detect all three colors. I am not sure what the real pros/cons of that might be, or if thats actually what they will end up doing in the long run. It seems more like a modified CFA approach than a true layered design like Foveon, and it might resolve one of the key issues with Foveon's design...differentiating how many electrons in a given photodiode are to be allocated to blue, green, and red readouts.

Thanks! That's useful! Do you have any info on to what extent photosite size would affect the DR and ISO performance? with the gapless microlens tech, and some 15.3 MP on the sensor the photosites would be fairly large, I imagine, but I wonder how that would translate into DR and ISO performance on a layered sensor...

Cheers!

Well, we are assuming Canon would produce a sensor with that low of a resolution. They might...it might be their favorite size...18mp. It may be more dense. Either way....DR and noise will be key issues for any layered sensor, done Foveon-style or some other way. Foveon sensors don't fare well at high ISO, namely because green (the most prevalent band of light) and red are only registered deeper into the photodiode. Foveon senses blue at the top, green in the middle, and red at the bottom. This generally should balance things out, as silicon is more sensitive to red light than green, and more to green than blue. But there is also a lot more row/column activate and readout wiring (as well as some other control logic) per-pixel in a layered sensor than in a bayer sensor. That means there are more obstructions, so more light gets reflected or absorbed as heat at the green and red levels, reducing light further. Since this is INSIDE the photodiode, there isn't really any way you could use microlenses to mitigate the problem. A really advanced design might actually stack separate photodiodes, sandwiching microlens layers. I imagine that would be FAR more difficult to manufacture and very cost prohibitive.

However Canon does it (assuming they even ever do), you'll have to make some tradeoffs. DR for color fidelity and resolution (on a pixel-normal basis anyway.)

well_dunno

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #110 on: September 25, 2012, 03:17:49 PM »
my hat is off to you sir! :)

MARKOE PHOTOE

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2012, 03:33:32 PM »
Looking at the marketing side and possibilities of this new approach by Canon, it obviously is in direct competition to Nikon's D800 and with the masses focused on qty of MP, Canon is making sure they are at least more than 10% larger than Nikon's sensor.   

My guess is the IQ will be much much better than the D800 and 5D3 with some of the trade offs inherited by this newer technology such as FPS and high ISO noise.

Should this new model 'fail' to get the market share, then Canon has dug a big hole for themselves. This HAS to work OR they have to have another trick in the bag.

As far as pricing, my 'guess' is around $4,200.
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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2012, 03:33:32 PM »

marekjoz

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2012, 04:20:25 PM »
(...)

As far as pricing, my 'guess' is around $4,200.

It's really unpredictable and it can be $4900 or $9900 as well. The price will represent it's uniqueness in a specific area of photography and the better it really will be the higher price we should expect.
No dinner for free.
Although I like price polls :D
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nightbreath

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #114 on: September 26, 2012, 09:26:46 AM »
I think the price could be around $10-12k to compete with medium format. No one knows for sure  :-\
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Ricku

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #115 on: September 26, 2012, 09:38:26 AM »
I think the price could be around $10-12k to compete with medium format. No one knows for sure  :-\
Ehm no, it should be around $4.5K to compete with the D800.

Canon doesn't exist in isolation.

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2012, 09:54:57 AM »


Canon doesn't exist in isolation.

yep, but they don´t seem to notice...

dadgummit

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2012, 10:04:01 AM »


Canon doesn't exist in isolation.

yep, but they don´t seem to notice...

^^ It is funny because it is true.

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2012, 10:04:01 AM »

tron

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2012, 10:32:10 AM »

nightbreath

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2012, 10:35:09 AM »
I'm glad to see that you figured that out by yourself  :)

The more you pay the more you believe that you get premium. I saw a post on this forum (don't remember where exactly) about cars in India, when a very cheap car has been developed it didn't become popular, it made popular the car that was next in the price range.
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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2012, 10:35:09 AM »