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Author Topic: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]  (Read 60562 times)

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: September 29, 2012, 01:49:22 PM »
Or that the nikkei is down 15% and there is a broad global economic slowdown and it has nothing to do with canon. You are all speculating way too much...

That was more or less the point I was getting at.  Way too much narrow thinking and too many bad economics lessons going on here in this thread.

It's doing worse than it's competitors. It's doing worse than it's own market index(Nikkei). Like i said before, it's not a neutral signal, noisy maybe, but not neutral. You can pretend it is, but them you're just in denial.

Otherwise, have fun pretending you know something about economics.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 01:51:37 PM by HurtinMinorKey »

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: September 29, 2012, 01:49:22 PM »

bdunbar79

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #151 on: September 29, 2012, 01:53:14 PM »
Or that the nikkei is down 15% and there is a broad global economic slowdown and it has nothing to do with canon. You are all speculating way too much...

That was more or less the point I was getting at.  Way too much narrow thinking and too many bad economics lessons going on here in this thread.

It's doing worse than it's competitors. It's doing worse than it's own market index(Nikkei). Like i said before, it's not a neutral signal, noisy maybe, but not neutral. You can pretend it is, but them you're just in denial.

Otherwise, have fun pretending you know something about economics.

Who cares?
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bdunbar79

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #152 on: September 29, 2012, 02:02:13 PM »
Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire.  If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.

Either way, a stock price falling is a sign of trouble for a company. If a company is making bad decisions overall, there is a greater probability that any one decision, no matter how small, was bad.

This is the horrific ecomonics lesson I was referring to.  And yes, it's troublesome.  You first relate it to the release of the 5D Mark III (1st paragraph), which makes no sense but let's not go there.  THEN, you try to generalize the stock price falling to the overall company performance and not necessarily the 5D3 but a whole slew of other things (2nd paragraph), which, negates your first statement and indicates that it can't possibly be just because of the 5D3.  Which it can't be, but that's not what you said, then you sort of said it, and now nobody knows what the heck you're talking about and probably no longer cares.

Once again, can you show us data that directly implicates the 5D Mark III to Canon's stock prices falling?  Out of all of the huge line of Canon products, it must be from the 5D Mark III right?  If so, show us.  Otherwise, this is just a load of garbage like most of this thread has turned in to.

If you knew all of the different factors that affect a company's stock performance, you wouldn't be making any of these statements.  No offense against you, but you went personal in your last statement which also indicates your lack of class.
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canon816

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #153 on: September 29, 2012, 02:38:25 PM »
Otherwise, have fun pretending you know something about economics.

Actually... I have a degree hanging on my wall in... you guessed it:  "Economics."

But really... who cares...

Marsu42

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #154 on: September 29, 2012, 03:12:07 PM »
Actually... I have a degree hanging on my wall in... you guessed it:  "Economics."

In this case you are even more at a disadvantage to understand economics :-> ... at least my favorite sitcom "Yes, Minister" says so. I studied economics for some semesters and one of the thing I remember most vividly is that economists hardly can agree on anything, esp. when it comes to predictions or even advice...

canon816

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #155 on: September 29, 2012, 03:19:41 PM »
Actually... I have a degree hanging on my wall in... you guessed it:  "Economics."

In this case you are even more at a disadvantage to understand economics :-> ... at least my favorite sitcom "Yes, Minister" says so. I studied economics for some semesters and one of the thing I remember most vividly is that economists hardly can agree on anything, esp. when it comes to predictions or even advice...

 ;D 

I personally am not super interested in this camera.  My big thing is high ISO noise quality.  I shoot in low light often and need fast shutter speeds and I worry that this many pixels crammed into a sensor would not allow for clean high iso images.   Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.  I do a lot of panormaas and some HDR and files with the 5DIII make my system bog down when I create images that are over a gig each.  I'm sure that processing power will catch up over the next couple years however.  It will be interesting to see if this camera comes to production as the rumors currently indicate.

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: September 29, 2012, 03:52:04 PM »
Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.

Unlike the d800 the high mp eos is likely to have "s raw" and "m raw" modes that give you raw files like the 5d2/5d3/6d size. And if downscaled 46mp->22mp files have less noise than the native 5d3, there's really no drawback except for the fps - and even here Canon might allow more fps for downscaled raw files. So basically if you have the cash, Canon will try to make you prefer the high mp eos over any 5d.

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: September 29, 2012, 03:52:04 PM »

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #157 on: September 29, 2012, 03:54:20 PM »
Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire.  If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.

Either way, a stock price falling is a sign of trouble for a company. If a company is making bad decisions overall, there is a greater probability that any one decision, no matter how small, was bad.

This is the horrific ecomonics lesson I was referring to.  And yes, it's troublesome.  You first relate it to the release of the 5D Mark III (1st paragraph), which makes no sense but let's not go there.  THEN, you try to generalize the stock price falling to the overall company performance and not necessarily the 5D3 but a whole slew of other things (2nd paragraph), which, negates your first statement and indicates that it can't possibly be just because of the 5D3.  Which it can't be, but that's not what you said, then you sort of said it, and now nobody knows what the heck you're talking about and probably no longer cares.

Once again, can you show us data that directly implicates the 5D Mark III to Canon's stock prices falling?  Out of all of the huge line of Canon products, it must be from the 5D Mark III right?  If so, show us.  Otherwise, this is just a load of garbage like most of this thread has turned in to.

If you knew all of the different factors that affect a company's stock performance, you wouldn't be making any of these statements.  No offense against you, but you went personal in your last statement which also indicates your lack of class.

Just because you don't understand the lesson, doesn't make it any less true. You say that the decline in stock value gives us no information about the performance of the 5d3, I say it does.  Even if the only thing that it tells us is that the overall company might be doing poorly. 

Do political polls give us facts about general populations? No they give us a signal, within a certain degree of confidence. In this case, the falling stock performance(relative to benchmarks and peers) gives us a signal as to the overall state of affairs at Canon, of which the 5d3's performance constitutes some factor (however small).

Is it possible that the 5d3 is killing it while the rest of Canon is falling apart: YES! But there is nothing to support that.   


dlleno

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #158 on: September 29, 2012, 04:23:42 PM »
Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.

Unlike the d800 the high mp eos is likely to have "s raw" and "m raw" modes that give you raw files like the 5d2/5d3/6d size. And if downscaled 46mp->22mp files have less noise than the native 5d3, there's really no drawback except for the fps - and even here Canon might allow more fps for downscaled raw files. So basically if you have the cash, Canon will try to make you prefer the high mp eos over any 5d.

finally, relief from the economic egos.  It will be interesting to see the extent to which this is a specialized camera that is disadvantaged when forced out of its comfort zone.  For example if the sensor is so optimzed for low ISO DR that it performs poorly at high ISOs, then the downsampled images won't hold a candle to the 5D3 in the areas where the 5D3 excels.  On the other hand, if the smaller images are in fact reasonable and convincing compared to the 5D3, then we could have a game changer.  Unfortunately I suspect that, given the choice, Canon will want people to buy this AND something else. they most likely won't build a 5D3 killer even if they knew how. 

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #159 on: September 29, 2012, 09:00:51 PM »
Maybe it's the 1Dx that's causing Canon all the trouble at mill and the 5D3 is propping the company up........ good grief  :o

Anyways this thermal cooling thingmibob, does that mean if I put my camera in the fridge to cool it down before taking pictures I'll get less read noise? brilliant! :P

........ and there was me thinking read noise was something that happend when your wife is reading 50 Shades of Grey  8)

PeterJ

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #160 on: September 29, 2012, 09:49:08 PM »
Anyways this thermal cooling thingmibob, does that mean if I put my camera in the fridge to cool it down before taking pictures I'll get less read noise? brilliant! :P
In theory yes that should work, both the sensor and ADC will have less thermal noise. Not sure the humidity will be within spec though ;). Most Canon user guides actually include a note about temperature, for example from the 5D3 guide:

Shooting in high temperatures may result in images that look grainier.

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #161 on: September 29, 2012, 10:51:37 PM »
Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.

Unlike the d800 the high mp eos is likely to have "s raw" and "m raw" modes that give you raw files like the 5d2/5d3/6d size. And if downscaled 46mp->22mp files have less noise than the native 5d3, there's really no drawback except for the fps - and even here Canon might allow more fps for downscaled raw files. So basically if you have the cash, Canon will try to make you prefer the high mp eos over any 5d.

finally, relief from the economic egos.  It will be interesting to see the extent to which this is a specialized camera that is disadvantaged when forced out of its comfort zone.  For example if the sensor is so optimzed for low ISO DR that it performs poorly at high ISOs, then the downsampled images won't hold a candle to the 5D3 in the areas where the 5D3 excels.  On the other hand, if the smaller images are in fact reasonable and convincing compared to the 5D3, then we could have a game changer.  Unfortunately I suspect that, given the choice, Canon will want people to buy this AND something else. they most likely won't build a 5D3 killer even if they knew how.

My guess is that this monster will trump the 5d3 in everything other than fps, but will be priced high enough so as to be sufficiently differentiated.

jrista

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: September 30, 2012, 01:45:22 AM »
Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.

Unlike the d800 the high mp eos is likely to have "s raw" and "m raw" modes that give you raw files like the 5d2/5d3/6d size. And if downscaled 46mp->22mp files have less noise than the native 5d3, there's really no drawback except for the fps - and even here Canon might allow more fps for downscaled raw files. So basically if you have the cash, Canon will try to make you prefer the high mp eos over any 5d.

finally, relief from the economic egos.  It will be interesting to see the extent to which this is a specialized camera that is disadvantaged when forced out of its comfort zone.  For example if the sensor is so optimzed for low ISO DR that it performs poorly at high ISOs, then the downsampled images won't hold a candle to the 5D3 in the areas where the 5D3 excels.  On the other hand, if the smaller images are in fact reasonable and convincing compared to the 5D3, then we could have a game changer.  Unfortunately I suspect that, given the choice, Canon will want people to buy this AND something else. they most likely won't build a 5D3 killer even if they knew how.

My guess is that this monster will trump the 5d3 in everything other than fps, but will be priced high enough so as to be sufficiently differentiated.

Really? I would imagine it will have a different AF system. The 5D III is a prime candidate for a great AF system, but a megapixel monster with a low frame rate? I guess I don't really see it getting the top-end 61/41pt AF system. I certainly hope it gets something better than the 6D's 11pt AF and even the 7D's 19pt AF systems, though.
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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: September 30, 2012, 01:45:22 AM »

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #163 on: October 01, 2012, 06:51:41 AM »
Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire.  If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.

Either way, a stock price falling is a sign of trouble for a company. If a company is making bad decisions overall, there is a greater probability that any one decision, no matter how small, was bad.

Are you talking about the camera division or the whole Canon inc ?
The camera division is a very small division in Canon, like a  Canon representative down at Photokina expressed it, a hobby activity

37% ($16.8bn) of total revenues doesn't strike me as a hobby activity.

AmbientLight

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: October 01, 2012, 08:16:48 AM »
On one hand you are correct that the revenues do not correspond to this being a hobby activity, but once you look at any Canon website, the statement is readily confirmed (although using slightly different terms) as Canon does distinguish between their offerings for companies (multi-functional devices and such) and their offerings for private or home office usage.

Yes there is a niche called professional photography, but this is really just a niche. Most of the photographic equipment revenue appears to come from what they call consumer or home office usage, which may include people getting started in the business.

That is a distinct area from doing business with large corporate customers with hundreds or thousands of employees, so within Canon you will find a multitude of of employees taking care of corporate customers, but only a few will actually have something to do with photography.

You don't see this with Nikon. All their other businesses seem to have eroded over time, so that for them only photography appears to be left.

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Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: October 01, 2012, 08:16:48 AM »