December 03, 2016, 06:53:40 AM

Author Topic: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]  (Read 85677 times)

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • **********
  • Posts: 6329
  • Canon Pride.
    • Der Tierfotograf
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: September 29, 2012, 03:52:04 PM »
Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.

Unlike the d800 the high mp eos is likely to have "s raw" and "m raw" modes that give you raw files like the 5d2/5d3/6d size. And if downscaled 46mp->22mp files have less noise than the native 5d3, there's really no drawback except for the fps - and even here Canon might allow more fps for downscaled raw files. So basically if you have the cash, Canon will try to make you prefer the high mp eos over any 5d.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: September 29, 2012, 03:52:04 PM »

HurtinMinorKey

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 446
    • carolineculler.com
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #151 on: September 29, 2012, 03:54:20 PM »
Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire.  If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.

Either way, a stock price falling is a sign of trouble for a company. If a company is making bad decisions overall, there is a greater probability that any one decision, no matter how small, was bad.

This is the horrific ecomonics lesson I was referring to.  And yes, it's troublesome.  You first relate it to the release of the 5D Mark III (1st paragraph), which makes no sense but let's not go there.  THEN, you try to generalize the stock price falling to the overall company performance and not necessarily the 5D3 but a whole slew of other things (2nd paragraph), which, negates your first statement and indicates that it can't possibly be just because of the 5D3.  Which it can't be, but that's not what you said, then you sort of said it, and now nobody knows what the heck you're talking about and probably no longer cares.

Once again, can you show us data that directly implicates the 5D Mark III to Canon's stock prices falling?  Out of all of the huge line of Canon products, it must be from the 5D Mark III right?  If so, show us.  Otherwise, this is just a load of garbage like most of this thread has turned in to.

If you knew all of the different factors that affect a company's stock performance, you wouldn't be making any of these statements.  No offense against you, but you went personal in your last statement which also indicates your lack of class.

Just because you don't understand the lesson, doesn't make it any less true. You say that the decline in stock value gives us no information about the performance of the 5d3, I say it does.  Even if the only thing that it tells us is that the overall company might be doing poorly. 

Do political polls give us facts about general populations? No they give us a signal, within a certain degree of confidence. In this case, the falling stock performance(relative to benchmarks and peers) gives us a signal as to the overall state of affairs at Canon, of which the 5d3's performance constitutes some factor (however small).

Is it possible that the 5d3 is killing it while the rest of Canon is falling apart: YES! But there is nothing to support that.   


dlleno

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 603
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #152 on: September 29, 2012, 04:23:42 PM »
Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.

Unlike the d800 the high mp eos is likely to have "s raw" and "m raw" modes that give you raw files like the 5d2/5d3/6d size. And if downscaled 46mp->22mp files have less noise than the native 5d3, there's really no drawback except for the fps - and even here Canon might allow more fps for downscaled raw files. So basically if you have the cash, Canon will try to make you prefer the high mp eos over any 5d.

finally, relief from the economic egos.  It will be interesting to see the extent to which this is a specialized camera that is disadvantaged when forced out of its comfort zone.  For example if the sensor is so optimzed for low ISO DR that it performs poorly at high ISOs, then the downsampled images won't hold a candle to the 5D3 in the areas where the 5D3 excels.  On the other hand, if the smaller images are in fact reasonable and convincing compared to the 5D3, then we could have a game changer.  Unfortunately I suspect that, given the choice, Canon will want people to buy this AND something else. they most likely won't build a 5D3 killer even if they knew how. 

zim

  • 5DSR
  • *******
  • Posts: 1462
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #153 on: September 29, 2012, 09:00:51 PM »
Maybe it's the 1Dx that's causing Canon all the trouble at mill and the 5D3 is propping the company up........ good grief  :o

Anyways this thermal cooling thingmibob, does that mean if I put my camera in the fridge to cool it down before taking pictures I'll get less read noise? brilliant! :P

........ and there was me thinking read noise was something that happend when your wife is reading 50 Shades of Grey  8)

PeterJ

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 335
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #154 on: September 29, 2012, 09:49:08 PM »
Anyways this thermal cooling thingmibob, does that mean if I put my camera in the fridge to cool it down before taking pictures I'll get less read noise? brilliant! :P
In theory yes that should work, both the sensor and ADC will have less thermal noise. Not sure the humidity will be within spec though ;). Most Canon user guides actually include a note about temperature, for example from the 5D3 guide:

Shooting in high temperatures may result in images that look grainier.

HurtinMinorKey

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 446
    • carolineculler.com
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #155 on: September 29, 2012, 10:51:37 PM »
Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.

Unlike the d800 the high mp eos is likely to have "s raw" and "m raw" modes that give you raw files like the 5d2/5d3/6d size. And if downscaled 46mp->22mp files have less noise than the native 5d3, there's really no drawback except for the fps - and even here Canon might allow more fps for downscaled raw files. So basically if you have the cash, Canon will try to make you prefer the high mp eos over any 5d.

finally, relief from the economic egos.  It will be interesting to see the extent to which this is a specialized camera that is disadvantaged when forced out of its comfort zone.  For example if the sensor is so optimzed for low ISO DR that it performs poorly at high ISOs, then the downsampled images won't hold a candle to the 5D3 in the areas where the 5D3 excels.  On the other hand, if the smaller images are in fact reasonable and convincing compared to the 5D3, then we could have a game changer.  Unfortunately I suspect that, given the choice, Canon will want people to buy this AND something else. they most likely won't build a 5D3 killer even if they knew how.

My guess is that this monster will trump the 5d3 in everything other than fps, but will be priced high enough so as to be sufficiently differentiated.

jrista

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • **********
  • Posts: 5334
  • EOL
    • Nature Photography
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: September 30, 2012, 01:45:22 AM »
Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.

Unlike the d800 the high mp eos is likely to have "s raw" and "m raw" modes that give you raw files like the 5d2/5d3/6d size. And if downscaled 46mp->22mp files have less noise than the native 5d3, there's really no drawback except for the fps - and even here Canon might allow more fps for downscaled raw files. So basically if you have the cash, Canon will try to make you prefer the high mp eos over any 5d.

finally, relief from the economic egos.  It will be interesting to see the extent to which this is a specialized camera that is disadvantaged when forced out of its comfort zone.  For example if the sensor is so optimzed for low ISO DR that it performs poorly at high ISOs, then the downsampled images won't hold a candle to the 5D3 in the areas where the 5D3 excels.  On the other hand, if the smaller images are in fact reasonable and convincing compared to the 5D3, then we could have a game changer.  Unfortunately I suspect that, given the choice, Canon will want people to buy this AND something else. they most likely won't build a 5D3 killer even if they knew how.

My guess is that this monster will trump the 5d3 in everything other than fps, but will be priced high enough so as to be sufficiently differentiated.

Really? I would imagine it will have a different AF system. The 5D III is a prime candidate for a great AF system, but a megapixel monster with a low frame rate? I guess I don't really see it getting the top-end 61/41pt AF system. I certainly hope it gets something better than the 6D's 11pt AF and even the 7D's 19pt AF systems, though.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: September 30, 2012, 01:45:22 AM »

AdamJ

  • Guest
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #157 on: October 01, 2012, 06:51:41 AM »
Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire.  If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.

Either way, a stock price falling is a sign of trouble for a company. If a company is making bad decisions overall, there is a greater probability that any one decision, no matter how small, was bad.

Are you talking about the camera division or the whole Canon inc ?
The camera division is a very small division in Canon, like a  Canon representative down at Photokina expressed it, a hobby activity

37% ($16.8bn) of total revenues doesn't strike me as a hobby activity.

AmbientLight

  • Canon 7D MK II
  • *****
  • Posts: 493
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #158 on: October 01, 2012, 08:16:48 AM »
On one hand you are correct that the revenues do not correspond to this being a hobby activity, but once you look at any Canon website, the statement is readily confirmed (although using slightly different terms) as Canon does distinguish between their offerings for companies (multi-functional devices and such) and their offerings for private or home office usage.

Yes there is a niche called professional photography, but this is really just a niche. Most of the photographic equipment revenue appears to come from what they call consumer or home office usage, which may include people getting started in the business.

That is a distinct area from doing business with large corporate customers with hundreds or thousands of employees, so within Canon you will find a multitude of of employees taking care of corporate customers, but only a few will actually have something to do with photography.

You don't see this with Nikon. All their other businesses seem to have eroded over time, so that for them only photography appears to be left.

AdamJ

  • Guest
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #159 on: October 01, 2012, 09:09:09 PM »
On one hand you are correct that the revenues do not correspond to this being a hobby activity, but once you look at any Canon website, the statement is readily confirmed (although using slightly different terms) as Canon does distinguish between their offerings for companies (multi-functional devices and such) and their offerings for private or home office usage.

Indeed, but still, Canon's Consumer Business Unit (photo / video and home printers - no office equipment) accounted for 37%, or $16.8bn, of Canon's total revenues, and 43% of operating profit, in 2011. This contradicts the previous poster's assertion that the camera division is 'very small' and a 'hobby activity' for Canon.

Yes there is a niche called professional photography, but this is really just a niche. Most of the photographic equipment revenue appears to come from what they call consumer or home office usage, which may include people getting started in the business.

Professional photography might indeed be a niche but Canon's commitment to it is evidently no less than Nikon's, which seemed to be the previous poster's implication.

That is a distinct area from doing business with large corporate customers with hundreds or thousands of employees, so within Canon you will find a multitude of of employees taking care of corporate customers, but only a few will actually have something to do with photography.

You don't see this with Nikon. All their other businesses seem to have eroded over time, so that for them only photography appears to be left.

In the absence of any employee numbers per business unit from Canon, the fairest assumption is that Canon's photography-related headcount as a ratio to turnover is not wildly different from Nikon's.

symmar22

  • Guest
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #160 on: October 02, 2012, 05:46:02 AM »
Just to come back to the photographic matter, I would be very interested in such a camera, 5D3 has been for me a disappointment, since I was expecting more from the sensor. I agree the camera is a BIG improvement over the 5D2 about everything else, but it shows that Canon has not done the proper homework concerning sensors. Like it or not, it's always been about pixels, like before we all wanted films with more resolution. IMHO releasing a new prosumer camera with 22MPX priced at 3500$ when Nikon and Sony have 24MPX on consumer DX cameras, looks like it will appear outdated soon. It looks a bit like the D700 that was likely the best camera on the market back then, but every Canon guy was laughing at its 12MPX sensor. Now I agree that something around 20MPX is enough for a lot of tasks.

   I understand people want a "do it all" camera, but pro market does not have necessarily the same considerations. IMHO, there is a place for more specialized cameras. The 1DX should fit the task for sport / news people, the 5D3 for event / wedding photographers, but still there is space for a camera dedicated to high quality SLOW picture, like architecture / landscape / industrial / studio photography.
   I see a lot of people complaining about low ISO capability or poor AF such a camera might end with. Is it really of such importance ? Does anybody use a GOOD tripod for this kind of pictures ? Because it is a very valuable accessory I strongly advise to try.... Who gives a client a picture of his building taken with 12800 ISO ?

   What I mean here is that a few years ago, architecture / studio / landscape were made with medium format or view cameras, that do not have AF, and the only slide film you would have considered was 100 ISO. Therefore I think a high MP camera is intended at a market who doesn't need such features, people who need high ISO or super AF systems already have these cameras with the 5D3 and 1DX. Personally, this camera would have 1600 ISO max and no AF, I could cope with it as I am sure most serious landscape / architecture / studio photographer could as well...

And NO, I can not afford a 30000$ Hasselblad system, so 5000$ for such a camera would be a blessing. I am mainly using TS-E lenses and Nikon equivalents don't really have the same quality as Canon's (except for the 45 TS).

One word as well about the post processing, I see a lot of people complaining about the size of the files and the time required to process them. I can not understand that people who spend 10,000$ on a camera system cannot not afford a decent computer. You can built a PC with 6 Cores, a fast SSD and 16Gb of memory for around 1000$, that will swallow your pics in a few seconds. Personally I upgrade  my PC every year or 2, the motherboard / CPU / RAM update is less than 500-600$. Of course for Apple users things are not quite as simple, but this is another debate. Post processing big files has never been a real issue, assuming of course you have enough RAM (I advise minimum 16GB, that's 80$).

What scares me a bit, is that it seems Canon doesn't really have at this time the ability to release a sensor that could match the DR needed by this type of camera, one must admit Nikon/Sony has a much better sensor with the D800. Hope we get more real infos soon.

Now I am ready to get slaughtered but after all it's all about debating..... ;)

PS : sorry about my syntax, but I am not a native English speaker
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 12:30:15 PM by symmar22 »

Tov

  • Canon AE-1
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
    • tovergaauw
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #161 on: October 02, 2012, 08:26:16 AM »
I think the Ds series always had sufficient AF and low ISO performance but still came at a prize.
This new 46.1 mp beast isnt going to be any different.
However I doubt that it is going to appear very soon. I think that Canon marketing came up with the idea of spreading a rumour of a very high mp camera  so people would think twice before taking the plunge to the D800.

A lesser Af system would mean taking a step back.
I used to have to focus manually but now with auto-focus  life has became peachy.;)
AE-1+winder.

marekjoz

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 927
    • marekjoz @flickr
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: October 09, 2012, 08:54:00 AM »
I'm just wondering...

46.1MP is 8316x5544. 14 bits of usual information make 16384 levels of a colour. Is it not so, that increasing the resolution to such a level you should also remember to increase the colour depth to avoid the banding, which may occur at the pixel level? Does Nyquist-Shannon rule has anything to do here or not? If so - is the 46.1MP maximum usable resolution in 14 bits domain?

Guys knowing more than me?
flickr | youtube | 5D2, 50 F/1.4, 24-105 F/4 L IS, 300 F/4 L IS, x1.4 II

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: October 09, 2012, 08:54:00 AM »

jrista

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • **********
  • Posts: 5334
  • EOL
    • Nature Photography
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #163 on: October 09, 2012, 07:45:25 PM »
I'm just wondering...

46.1MP is 8316x5544. 14 bits of usual information make 16384 levels of a colour. Is it not so, that increasing the resolution to such a level you should also remember to increase the colour depth to avoid the banding, which may occur at the pixel level? Does Nyquist-Shannon rule has anything to do here or not? If so - is the 46.1MP maximum usable resolution in 14 bits domain?

Guys knowing more than me?

You won't experience banding with 14-bit color in most cases, regardless of the image resolution. If you did, it would usually be in large regions of smooth gradient...such as a sky. That already occurs on current and past generation cameras, and is sometimes exacerbated of how your computer screen is calibrated (not caused by, simply made more apparent).

Based on the current rumors, Canon is also boosting the bit depth to a full 16 bits, so this would be a 46.1mp sensor with a 16-bit ADC, which would produce some pretty incredible tonal fidelity, as well as add the potential for a total of four stops or so of improved DR (assuming Canon really does get a handle on their read noise, we might go from an average of 11.something stops to 15.something stops.)

tron

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2837
Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: October 09, 2012, 08:31:16 PM »
Really? I would imagine it will have a different AF system. The 5D III is a prime candidate for a great AF system, but a megapixel monster with a low frame rate? I guess I don't really see it getting the top-end 61/41pt AF system. I certainly hope it gets something better than the 6D's 11pt AF and even the 7D's 19pt AF systems, though.
Why? If it is a 1-series body it will most probably have the top AF system. Wasn't this situation the same with 1DsIII ?

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: October 09, 2012, 08:31:16 PM »