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Author Topic: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?  (Read 13508 times)

tome223

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Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« on: September 24, 2012, 09:21:05 AM »
As a 60d shooter was looking forward to the 6d entry level ff I was hugely disappointed by just the additional 2 af points and 1/180th fash sync.   Came across this good comparison page regarding flash syncs

http://www.photographe-mariages.net/blog/20120404/vitesse-de-synchronisation-par-appareil-photo/

Why do the 60d, 50d, and 7d have a faster flash sync than the 5d mark ii and iii and the 6d?????

I'm holding off to see how the 7d mark ii shakes out now.  the 6d doesn't impress me and the 5d mark iii is too much. 
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2012, 09:49:55 AM »
Bigger sensors means the curtain must travel further.
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2012, 11:08:24 AM »
I think we very safely can say it's both those reasons.
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 11:19:50 AM »
I may be wrong, but with High Speed Sync on a flash, max sync shutter speed becomes less relevant.

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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 12:15:05 PM »
I may be wrong, but with High Speed Sync on a flash, max sync shutter speed becomes less relevant.

yep you are wrong.

because you need an HSS enabled flash. and even then you will have less power output.

well, lets be careful and precise at the same time... iMagic suggested that with HSS on a flash, max sync shutter speed becomes less relevant, and that is a true satement.  It does become less relevant, just not in all situations.  In order to call his statement wrong, we would then be saying "with HSS on a flash, the relevance of max sync shutter speed does not change", which of course is not true. 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 01:03:11 PM by dlleno »

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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 12:57:15 PM »
You guys do realize your complaining about 1/20th of a second difference between the D600 and 6D, right? That is 0.0005 seconds difference! It really doesn't matter that much, and given the design of the 6D as a low-light camera capable of ISO 25600 and AF at EV -3, it matters even less. You could bump up the ISO by a third of a stop for pretty much ANY exposure and compensate for the difference if you really, really needed to. Now, if it was a 1/60th sync speed vs. a 1/200th sync speed, that would matter, but thats not the case.
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 01:15:34 PM »
You guys do realize your complaining about 1/20th of a second difference between the D600 and 6D, right? That is 0.0005 seconds difference! It really doesn't matter that much, and given the design of the 6D as a low-light camera capable of ISO 25600 and AF at EV -3, it matters even less. You could bump up the ISO by a third of a stop for pretty much ANY exposure and compensate for the difference if you really, really needed to. Now, if it was a 1/60th sync speed vs. a 1/200th sync speed, that would matter, but thats not the case.

please stop talking about things you don´t understand!!

ISO affects FLASH and AMBIENT exposure.. it´s obvious you don´t know what strobist are talking about.

yes 1/200s was already bad... doesn´t change a thing that the trend to make it even worse is a bad sign.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 01:18:18 PM by Canon-F1 »
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 02:20:52 PM »
You guys do realize your complaining about 1/20th of a second difference between the D600 and 6D, right? That is 0.0005 seconds difference! It really doesn't matter that much, and given the design of the 6D as a low-light camera capable of ISO 25600 and AF at EV -3, it matters even less. You could bump up the ISO by a third of a stop for pretty much ANY exposure and compensate for the difference if you really, really needed to. Now, if it was a 1/60th sync speed vs. a 1/200th sync speed, that would matter, but thats not the case.

please stop talking about things you don´t understand!!

ISO affects FLASH and AMBIENT exposure.. it´s obvious you don´t know what strobist are talking about.

yes 1/200s was already bad... doesn´t change a thing that the trend to make it even worse is a bad sign.

I think jrista makes a fair point.  I agree that 1/200 s X-sync isn't good, and 1/180 s is worse.  But the difference is only 1/6-stop. 

OTOH, despite the ISO improvement in recent sensors which would allow you to more than make up that 1/6-stop in terms of noise performance, that's not going to help stop action. That 1/6-stop is well and truly gone. 
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 02:31:53 PM »
You guys do realize your complaining about 1/20th of a second difference between the D600 and 6D, right? That is 0.0005 seconds difference! It really doesn't matter that much, and given the design of the 6D as a low-light camera capable of ISO 25600 and AF at EV -3, it matters even less. You could bump up the ISO by a third of a stop for pretty much ANY exposure and compensate for the difference if you really, really needed to. Now, if it was a 1/60th sync speed vs. a 1/200th sync speed, that would matter, but thats not the case.

please stop talking about things you don´t understand!!

ISO affects FLASH and AMBIENT exposure.. it´s obvious you don´t know what strobist are talking about.

yes 1/200s was already bad... doesn´t change a thing that the trend to make it even worse is a bad sign.

I think jrista makes a fair point.  I agree that 1/200 s X-sync isn't good, and 1/180 s is worse.  But the difference is only 1/6-stop. 

OTOH, despite the ISO improvement in recent sensors which would allow you to more than make up that 1/6-stop in terms of noise performance, that's not going to help stop action. That 1/6-stop is well and truly gone.

Aye. I don't disagree that 1/200th isn't great, and neither is 1/250th. But since none of the entry-level full-frame cameras have a 1/500th second sync speed, it doesn't make much sense to complain about a sixth of a stop worth of difference. I wasn't thinking that bumping ISO would help stop action...the flash pulse is for that (which is far shorter than 1/180th, 1/200th, even 1/500th shutter). I was only thinking if you wanted to compensate for the loss of exposure (or, for that matter, low ambient exposure to start with), you could easily bump ISO without worry on a camera capable of native ISO 25600.

I guess my real point is...we all get way too hung up on numerical statistics. We all think the 6D is "far worse" than Nikon's D600 because, well, numerically...the D600 wins. But who's to say that is really the case? Canon has done some pretty amazing things with previously unseen high ISO settings, resulting in USABLE ISO settings up to ISO 3200, 6400, even 12800. It has only 11 AF points vs. the D600's 39, but those 11 AF points have a broader spread across the frame than the D600's (which, to me, is a very important factor in AF capability). Canon's AF points tend to be rather LARGE as well, so the lack of density may not be as big a problem as the naysayers think. Additionally, Canon's AF system is capable of focusing in TWO FULL STOPS LESS light than the D600's...which at the very least should translate into better AF performance at EV -1 for the Canon. The Nikon D600 may have more pixels in its 24.3mp sensor, but its also going to be 20% more succeptible to photon shot noise (the primary cause of noise in general) than the 6D with its 20.1mp sensor. Photon shot noise doesn't give a S___ what your DR is...it occurs regardless.

Numeric comparisons between cameras is, and always has been, a terrible idea. Freaking out over a sixth stop difference in flash sync speed is...well...rather childish. I think the 6D is a somewhat lackluster release (seems to be Canon's MO these days), but I think it will be a fine camera, and will make quite a number of Canon customers happy campers.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 02:45:40 PM by jrista »
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 02:39:48 PM »
You guys do realize your complaining about 1/20th of a second difference between the D600 and 6D, right? That is 0.0005 seconds difference! It really doesn't matter that much, and given the design of the 6D as a low-light camera capable of ISO 25600 and AF at EV -3, it matters even less. You could bump up the ISO by a third of a stop for pretty much ANY exposure and compensate for the difference if you really, really needed to. Now, if it was a 1/60th sync speed vs. a 1/200th sync speed, that would matter, but thats not the case.

please stop talking about things you don´t understand!!

ISO affects FLASH and AMBIENT exposure.. it´s obvious you don´t know what strobist are talking about.

yes 1/200s was already bad... doesn´t change a thing that the trend to make it even worse is a bad sign.

I think jrista makes a fair point.  I agree that 1/200 s X-sync isn't good, and 1/180 s is worse.  But the difference is only 1/6-stop. 

OTOH, despite the ISO improvement in recent sensors which would allow you to more than make up that 1/6-stop in terms of noise performance, that's not going to help stop action. That 1/6-stop is well and truly gone.

Aye. I don't disagree that 1/200th isn't great, and neither is 1/250th. But since none of the entry-level full-frame cameras have a 1/500th second sync speed, it doesn't make much sense to complain about a sixth of a stop worth of difference. I wasn't thinking that bumping ISO would help stop action...the flash pulse is for that. I was only thinking if you wanted to compensate for the loss of exposure, you could easily bump ISO without worry on a camera capable of native ISO 25600.

That 1/6th of a stop manifests itself to the budget strobist in the form of additional power required of the strobe itself, to compensate for the smaller aperture necessary to properly expose the background on account of the slower shutter speed. Thats why strobists like high sync speeds and are often found complaining about little things like fractions of a stop. 

no its not much, but it will eat more batteries, affect re-cycle time, etc and is  more relevant to those using small speedlites, especially outdoors, as upposed to those packing around larger strobes and battery packs on location. 

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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2012, 02:41:11 PM »
As a 60d shooter was looking forward to the 6d entry level ff I was hugely disappointed by just the additional 2 af points and 1/180th fash sync.   Came across this good comparison page regarding flash syncs

http://www.photographe-mariages.net/blog/20120404/vitesse-de-synchronisation-par-appareil-photo/

Why do the 60d, 50d, and 7d have a faster flash sync than the 5d mark ii and iii and the 6d?????

I'm holding off to see how the 7d mark ii shakes out now.  the 6d doesn't impress me and the 5d mark iii is too much.

no.

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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2012, 02:50:05 PM »
You guys do realize your complaining about 1/20th of a second difference between the D600 and 6D, right? That is 0.0005 seconds difference! It really doesn't matter that much, and given the design of the 6D as a low-light camera capable of ISO 25600 and AF at EV -3, it matters even less. You could bump up the ISO by a third of a stop for pretty much ANY exposure and compensate for the difference if you really, really needed to. Now, if it was a 1/60th sync speed vs. a 1/200th sync speed, that would matter, but thats not the case.

please stop talking about things you don´t understand!!

ISO affects FLASH and AMBIENT exposure.. it´s obvious you don´t know what strobist are talking about.

yes 1/200s was already bad... doesn´t change a thing that the trend to make it even worse is a bad sign.

I think jrista makes a fair point.  I agree that 1/200 s X-sync isn't good, and 1/180 s is worse.  But the difference is only 1/6-stop. 

OTOH, despite the ISO improvement in recent sensors which would allow you to more than make up that 1/6-stop in terms of noise performance, that's not going to help stop action. That 1/6-stop is well and truly gone.

Aye. I don't disagree that 1/200th isn't great, and neither is 1/250th. But since none of the entry-level full-frame cameras have a 1/500th second sync speed, it doesn't make much sense to complain about a sixth of a stop worth of difference. I wasn't thinking that bumping ISO would help stop action...the flash pulse is for that. I was only thinking if you wanted to compensate for the loss of exposure, you could easily bump ISO without worry on a camera capable of native ISO 25600.

That 1/6th of a stop manifests itself to the budget strobist in the form of additional power required of the strobe itself, to compensate for the smaller aperture necessary to properly expose the background on account of the slower shutter speed. Thats why strobists like high sync speeds and are often found complaining about little things like fractions of a stop. 

no its not much, but it will eat more batteries, affect re-cycle time, etc and is  more relevant to those using small speedlites, especially outdoors, as upposed to those packing around larger strobes and battery packs on location.

I think your missing my point. Instead of narrowing aperture and reducing shutter speed to compensate for ambient exposure...couldn't you keep flash power, aperture, and shutter the same and boost ISO? That was what Canon-F1 was freaking out about...increasing ISO affects BOTH flash and shutter speed. Keep flash power the same (or reduce it), use the same shutter and aperture, and bump ISO. Does that not solve the problem? Or is everyone here still thinking that high ISO is evil because it introduces noise...which would not be exactly true with the new cameras from Canon.
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2012, 02:59:07 PM »
For me it isn't about LOW ambient light, it's about HIGH ambient outside i want to underexpose and let my flash work my main subject. And optimal with a 2,8 or faster aperture for shallow dof. I use 2x 580's at near full power and going from 250 to 300th of a second and into highspeed makes it look like my flashes didn't even fire. THAT'S the problem. That and the fact that with sync you can freeze quite a bit of fast action at 300th syncspeed, but very little with 200th.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 03:02:19 PM by Viggo »
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 02:59:44 PM »
You guys do realize your complaining about 1/20th of a second difference between the D600 and 6D, right? That is 0.0005 seconds difference! It really doesn't matter that much, and given the design of the 6D as a low-light camera capable of ISO 25600 and AF at EV -3, it matters even less. You could bump up the ISO by a third of a stop for pretty much ANY exposure and compensate for the difference if you really, really needed to. Now, if it was a 1/60th sync speed vs. a 1/200th sync speed, that would matter, but thats not the case.

please stop talking about things you don´t understand!!

ISO affects FLASH and AMBIENT exposure.. it´s obvious you don´t know what strobist are talking about.

yes 1/200s was already bad... doesn´t change a thing that the trend to make it even worse is a bad sign.

I think jrista makes a fair point.  I agree that 1/200 s X-sync isn't good, and 1/180 s is worse.  But the difference is only 1/6-stop. 

OTOH, despite the ISO improvement in recent sensors which would allow you to more than make up that 1/6-stop in terms of noise performance, that's not going to help stop action. That 1/6-stop is well and truly gone.

Aye. I don't disagree that 1/200th isn't great, and neither is 1/250th. But since none of the entry-level full-frame cameras have a 1/500th second sync speed, it doesn't make much sense to complain about a sixth of a stop worth of difference. I wasn't thinking that bumping ISO would help stop action...the flash pulse is for that. I was only thinking if you wanted to compensate for the loss of exposure, you could easily bump ISO without worry on a camera capable of native ISO 25600.

That 1/6th of a stop manifests itself to the budget strobist in the form of additional power required of the strobe itself, to compensate for the smaller aperture necessary to properly expose the background on account of the slower shutter speed. Thats why strobists like high sync speeds and are often found complaining about little things like fractions of a stop. 

no its not much, but it will eat more batteries, affect re-cycle time, etc and is  more relevant to those using small speedlites, especially outdoors, as upposed to those packing around larger strobes and battery packs on location.

I think your missing my point. Instead of narrowing aperture and reducing shutter speed to compensate for ambient exposure...couldn't you keep flash power, aperture, and shutter the same and boost ISO? That was what Canon-F1 was freaking out about...increasing ISO affects BOTH flash and shutter speed. Keep flash power the same (or reduce it), use the same shutter and aperture, and bump ISO. Does that not solve the problem? Or is everyone here still thinking that high ISO is evil because it introduces noise...which would not be exactly true with the new cameras from Canon.

You are totally mixed up in your thinking. The scenario here is bright sunlight, ISO 100. Shutter set to max sync speed and aperture set to expose background as desired. Boosting the ISO does absolutely nothing to help this situation, quite the oposite.
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Re: Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 03:22:50 PM »
You guys do realize your complaining about 1/20th of a second difference between the D600 and 6D, right? That is 0.0005 seconds difference! It really doesn't matter that much, and given the design of the 6D as a low-light camera capable of ISO 25600 and AF at EV -3, it matters even less. You could bump up the ISO by a third of a stop for pretty much ANY exposure and compensate for the difference if you really, really needed to. Now, if it was a 1/60th sync speed vs. a 1/200th sync speed, that would matter, but thats not the case.

please stop talking about things you don´t understand!!

ISO affects FLASH and AMBIENT exposure.. it´s obvious you don´t know what strobist are talking about.

yes 1/200s was already bad... doesn´t change a thing that the trend to make it even worse is a bad sign.

I think jrista makes a fair point.  I agree that 1/200 s X-sync isn't good, and 1/180 s is worse.  But the difference is only 1/6-stop. 

OTOH, despite the ISO improvement in recent sensors which would allow you to more than make up that 1/6-stop in terms of noise performance, that's not going to help stop action. That 1/6-stop is well and truly gone.

Aye. I don't disagree that 1/200th isn't great, and neither is 1/250th. But since none of the entry-level full-frame cameras have a 1/500th second sync speed, it doesn't make much sense to complain about a sixth of a stop worth of difference. I wasn't thinking that bumping ISO would help stop action...the flash pulse is for that. I was only thinking if you wanted to compensate for the loss of exposure, you could easily bump ISO without worry on a camera capable of native ISO 25600.

That 1/6th of a stop manifests itself to the budget strobist in the form of additional power required of the strobe itself, to compensate for the smaller aperture necessary to properly expose the background on account of the slower shutter speed. Thats why strobists like high sync speeds and are often found complaining about little things like fractions of a stop. 

no its not much, but it will eat more batteries, affect re-cycle time, etc and is  more relevant to those using small speedlites, especially outdoors, as upposed to those packing around larger strobes and battery packs on location.

I think your missing my point. Instead of narrowing aperture and reducing shutter speed to compensate for ambient exposure...couldn't you keep flash power, aperture, and shutter the same and boost ISO? That was what Canon-F1 was freaking out about...increasing ISO affects BOTH flash and shutter speed. Keep flash power the same (or reduce it), use the same shutter and aperture, and bump ISO. Does that not solve the problem? Or is everyone here still thinking that high ISO is evil because it introduces noise...which would not be exactly true with the new cameras from Canon.

You are totally mixed up in your thinking. The scenario here is bright sunlight, ISO 100. Shutter set to max sync speed and aperture set to expose background as desired. Boosting the ISO does absolutely nothing to help this situation, quite the oposite.

If its high ambient light, then sure, ISO won't solve the problem. My experience with flash is usually to add some fill to a subject in lower light. I don't use flash much when there is plenty of light...I just jack up ISO to get a high shutter speed. Granted...I photograph birds, so I can't apply my experience to the average sports photographer.

If you need high flash sync speed to freeze motion in high ambient, and manufacturers aren't providing it...then its time you guys started voting with your pocketbooks! :P Walk away...don't buy. Stick with the camera that gives you the flash capabilities you need until the manufacturers hear your complaints and deliver.
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