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Author Topic: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]  (Read 61635 times)

canon1969

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: September 28, 2012, 08:09:31 PM »
I like taking pictures of puppies... now I'll be able to make wall sized prints.  (Just thought I'd lighten things up a bit.)   ;)

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: September 28, 2012, 08:09:31 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #151 on: September 28, 2012, 09:15:51 PM »
Hopefully you are correct. One was some Swedish website or group and I don't know whether they knew how or were able to dig deep enough or not. They said they didn't see evidence of building any expensive new sensor lines. But who knows.

I know the group and one person is one of the best regarding sensors tech

Simply, there are no evidence that Canon have invest any money in a new sensor linje, this is open figures and seen in business stories for shareholders.There are also companies that make money on communicating what competitors are doing or not. A new sensor line cost about 1 billion US dollars or more, a heavy investment which will also be distributed to general public


Well that is unfortunate.

jrista

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #152 on: September 28, 2012, 09:45:55 PM »
Hopefully you are correct. One was some Swedish website or group and I don't know whether they knew how or were able to dig deep enough or not. They said they didn't see evidence of building any expensive new sensor lines. But who knows.

I know the group and one person is one of the best regarding sensors tech

Simply, there are no evidence that Canon have invest any money in a new sensor linje, this is open figures and seen in business stories for shareholders.There are also companies that make money on communicating what competitors are doing or not. A new sensor line cost about 1 billion US dollars or more, a heavy investment which will also be distributed to general public


Well that is unfortunate.

I don't believe a new sensor line costs a billion in US$$. That is roughly the cost of a new semiconductor fabrication facility, and generally thats the kind of cost for one of Intel's incredibly advanced, cutting edge CPU fabrication facilities when they move from one die size to another. For one, if the design and development of a new sensor line doesn't necessarily require a new fab. If Canon has already produced a 120mp APS-H sensor with 2.2 micron pixels and some advanced parallel readout & processing circuitry with their existing fabs, it seems doubtful they would actually need to drop a billion or so a new one. As for R&D to design a new sensor, thats probably a cost of millions....but a far cry from a billion unless Canon has some seriously ground-breaking, game-changing technology up their sleeve. I doubt they have something that impactful (although one can hope...competition IS good for the consumer!), and they certainly have the sales and market share to invest a few tens to hundreds of millions in the development of new sensor technology (they still are the largest digital camera company in the world.)

It's highly doubtful Nikon and Sony spent a billion dollars designing Exmor. Just think about that for a moment...have either of them even made a billion dollars off the sales of the cameras that actually use Exmor sensors? (I mean, if we assume that Nikon actually made the full $3000 off each D800 they sold, they would have to sell over 333 million of them to make a billion dollars. At actual cost, they would probably have to sell over 500 million!)  Thats an unholy lot of money to spend on "R&D". The development of a fab, in this case Sony's fab, is an entirely different story. Sony can use a single fab to produce a bazillion sensors a year in half a bazilion sizes and shapes for another half a bazillion purposes, for use in a zillion different industries and devices. Sony's (or for that matter Canon's) investment of a billion dollars in a semiconductor fab turns around and makes them many billions more. But that's a fab...not a new sensor design. And Mikael is purely speculating when he claims that Canon has to build a new fab to build better sensors (a statement I'm still waiting on some hard evidence for, and for which I believe there is evidence against in the existence of their 120mp APS-H sensor.)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 10:02:09 PM by jrista »

jrista

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #153 on: September 29, 2012, 02:29:07 AM »
Here is another little fact. Found this while digging through news for Canon's stock (spurred on by one of the other threads here on CR). Seems Canon has ranked third in overall patents filed in the US last year. That means Canon filed a HELL OF A LOT OF PATENTS!!

Quote
Canon U.S.A., Inc., is a leading provider of consumer, business-to-business, and industrial digital imaging solutions. With approximately $45.6 billion in global revenue, its parent company, Canon Inc. (CAJ), ranks third overall in U.S. patents registered in 2011* and is one of Fortune Magazine's World's Most Admired Companies in 2012.

I believe the idea that Canon is not an innovative company with the horsepower to compete is a load of troll crap. As I've been saying, there is nothing to prevent Canon from stepping up their game and ultimately giving Nikon a run for their money. And the notion that they couldn't drop a few billion on a new semiconductor fab if they wanted to...another load of troll feces...they have a $45 billion dollar global revenue. A billion dollars is barely more than pocket change. 

Additionally, another strong mark for Canon that Nikon just doesn't hold a stick to is their customer support, which apparently has been award winning for nine years:

Quote
In 2012, for the ninth consecutive year, Canon U.S.A. has received the PCMag.com Readers' Choice Award for Service and Reliability.

Reference: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/oce-arizona-series-printers-ideal-for-producing-membrane-switch-overlays-2012-09-26

lola

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #154 on: September 29, 2012, 04:17:08 AM »
@Mikael Risedal : Why do you write in all bold?
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Country Bumpkins

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #155 on: September 29, 2012, 04:33:02 AM »
@Mikael Risedal : Why do you write in all bold?

It makes him feel important, in his own little egotistical mind. (just my opinion)

sach100

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: September 29, 2012, 04:38:23 AM »
@Mikael Risedal : Why do you write in all bold?

so that others know which part to ignore in the discussion?
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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: September 29, 2012, 04:38:23 AM »

jrista

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #157 on: September 29, 2012, 12:21:52 PM »
Here is another little fact. Found this while digging through news for Canon's stock (spurred on by one of the other threads here on CR). Seems Canon has ranked third in overall patents filed in the US last year. That means Canon filed a HELL OF A LOT OF PATENTS!!

Quote
Canon U.S.A., Inc., is a leading provider of consumer, business-to-business, and industrial digital imaging solutions. With approximately $45.6 billion in global revenue, its parent company, Canon Inc. (CAJ), ranks third overall in U.S. patents registered in 2011* and is one of Fortune Magazine's World's Most Admired Companies in 2012.

I believe the idea that Canon is not an innovative company with the horsepower to compete is a load of troll crap. As I've been saying, there is nothing to prevent Canon from stepping up their game and ultimately giving Nikon a run for their money. And the notion that they couldn't drop a few billion on a new semiconductor fab if they wanted to...another load of troll feces...they have a $45 billion dollar global revenue. A billion dollars is barely more than pocket change. 

Additionally, another strong mark for Canon that Nikon just doesn't hold a stick to is their customer support, which apparently has been award winning for nine years:

Quote
In 2012, for the ninth consecutive year, Canon U.S.A. has received the PCMag.com Readers' Choice Award for Service and Reliability.

Reference: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/oce-arizona-series-printers-ideal-for-producing-membrane-switch-overlays-2012-09-26
Canon is a huge company . Canon has double sales compared to a large companies like IKEA

Canon is a small company regarding cmos sensors and compared to Omnivision and others

The camera division is a  small part of  Canon , the sensor division a lot smaller than the competisions
Canon is not even on the list with their own name



Ok. No idea where that pie chart came from, so I can't verify its accuracy.

Here are some more facts. Canon's business is primarily based on sensors of one kind of another and optics of one kind or another.

Here is a report on their business units that covers three years. Within this report, Canon indicates they have three major business units: Office, Consumer, Industry/Other. All three of these business units produce products that use CMOS sensors and chips. From a revenue perspective, the Office unit, 53.6% of Canon's overall revenues, rakes in $24.5 billion. The Consumer unit, 37.5% of Canon's overall revenues, which covers all the photography, video, and printing stuff we are interested in (except imagePrograf printers...which are part of the Office unit) brings in $17.1 billion. The final and smallest unit, their Industrial products and everything else, 11.7% of Canon's overall revenues, brings in $5.3 billion. Canon's Industrial products division is capable of building the kind of equipment required for a semiconductor fab, such as Semiconductor Lithography units.

Factual reference: http://web.canon.jp/ir/annual/2010/rep2010f.pdf



According to another report about Japan's local business (I assume this is just the local business, not worldwide like the above report, as Canon's worldwide revenue in yen is in the several trillions):

A full 27%, almost 1/3rd, of their business is consumer imaging. That 27% brings in around ¥164 billion in revenues. Another 49% of their business is business solutions. This largest segment brings in around ¥297 billion in revenues. Another 5% is industrial equipment, which involves a lot of sensor tech and optics, brings in around ¥30 billion in revenues. The final sector of Canon is their IT software, which is about 19% of their business. Not really sure what this division covers. This sector brings in ¥115 billion in revenues. There is also another ¥26.3 billion Canon simply chocks up to "Other". That is a total of ¥632 billion yen each year. In US dollar terms based on the current exchange rate, those numbers are:

Consumer Imaging Division: $2.1 billion
Business Division: $3.8 billion
Industrial Tech Division: $385 million
IT Solutions Division: $1.5 billion
Other: $338 million

Factual Reference: http://cweb.canon.jp/eng/corporate/activities/product.html



Even in US dollar terms, Canon's division related to consumer imaging, photography, video, etc. is almost a third of their business, and their second largest division from a dollar amount. Just about every device they ship from their consumer imaging division (including lenses) has at least one cmos chip in it. Every single actual imaging device, be it a DSLR, EOS-M, P&D, bridge camera, video camera, whatever...contains an image sensor and other CMOS devices to process pixels. They don't necessarily make ALL of those chips (many of their cheaper P&S cameras use CCD's manufactured by none other than Sony), but they make a significant percentage of them. And thats just the imaging division. The Industrial Tech division is also a heavily dependent on CMOS sensors and image processing chips. Hell, office products like printers and copiers require sensors. Canon most definitely has a significant need for a large CMOS production facility.




Lee Jay

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #158 on: October 01, 2012, 12:00:05 PM »
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<strong>A bit more information<br />


</strong>I’m told that the coming big megapixel camera is a very new sensor design/overhaul. The emphasis is in the dynamic range of the sensor. Performance is said to be on the level of medium format, even better than the impressive D800.</p>
<p>The same person also says the camera won’d be a “3D” or any other “D”, it will get an all new naming scheme.</p>
<p><strong>EF 35 f/1.4L II<br />

My opinion on how this should go.

This camera should be a 5DIIIs or some such name (a sensor, software, and processing pipeline only upgrade to the 5DIII), released at $3599 or less with a simultaneous price drop on the 5DIII to $2799 or less.  It should most certainly include at least one still-image crop mode that really crops, including the raw data, to allow faster frame rates, smaller sizes, and a deeper raw buffer.

Bosman

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #159 on: October 01, 2012, 02:23:55 PM »
Really Canon has a way to increase megapixels by a firmware update soon to be released. The 1dx/1dc/1dxs all the same camera just diff firmware lol...
For those hell bent on facts and info, i apologize for making lite of this but i am feeling a little wiley right now.
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bdunbar79

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #160 on: October 01, 2012, 02:56:00 PM »
Really Canon has a way to increase megapixels by a firmware update soon to be released. The 1dx/1dc/1dxs all the same camera just diff firmware lol...
For those hell bent on facts and info, i apologize for making lite of this but i am feeling a little wiley right now.

Oh please!!  The 1DX is a letdown.  Shoulda been 20 fps at 46.1 MP's!! 
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jrista

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #161 on: October 01, 2012, 05:56:20 PM »
Really Canon has a way to increase megapixels by a firmware update soon to be released. The 1dx/1dc/1dxs all the same camera just diff firmware lol...
For those hell bent on facts and info, i apologize for making lite of this but i am feeling a little wiley right now.

I didn't realize the firmware update would affect the 1D X. I can see how you might be able to use firmware to improve the resolution of a video camera. I thought the 1D C was downsampling the pixels off the sensor anyway. Couldn't a firmware update allow it to sample every pixel, or add some form of RAW/native output?

stewy

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: October 02, 2012, 07:52:47 AM »
I have a feeling that this new camera is also going to be mirrorless. Hence a pro version of the EOS M with a digital viewfinder.

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: October 02, 2012, 07:52:47 AM »

etg9

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #163 on: October 02, 2012, 02:46:35 PM »
Mikael added that pie chart which is correct for the June 2012 standings of all CMOS/CCD standing. However that has little to nothing to do with what is going on as Omnivision and almost everyone else named there is a cellphone/small sensor manufacture. Cellphones, car backup cameras, security video cameras, ect.

To add a little more to the pressure that Canon is having it's all in the numbers. Nikon and Sony are the only places Canon is feeling any pressure from in tech from but companies only care about these numbers.

Nikon 2011 profit: ~349 million USD
Sony 2011 profit: ~ (-584 million) USD
Canon 2011 profit: ~3177 million USD (1.17 billion of which is from consumer products)

 As jrista said, Canon may or may not have the tech to beat Nikon/Sony but why should they go out and drop money on new stuff when selling the same stuff is working quite well making almost 10x as much as Nikon last year.

//all numbers come from the companies 2011 financial report. Nikon and Sony are numbers from the entire company

Woody

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: October 02, 2012, 11:20:28 PM »
It makes him feel important, in his own little egotistical mind. (just my opinion)

Mikael popped out of nowhere and started to make many posts about Canon sensors in this as well as Fred Miranda forums. He is either a kid having fun on the internet or a truly disgruntled owner of several Nikon/Canon/Hasselblad/Leica products.

In any case, even though I doubt he has any factual evidence to back his assertions, I feel that it is not necessarily a bad thing to repine about Canon sensors. It's the same with DXOMark: full of garbage but some of their basic (not projected or opinionated) findings are correct.:) Canon ought to step up their sensor technology especially with regards to their low ISO dynamic range.

The problem is this: does any of this whining get to Canon management and do they have the means to solve it?

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Re: More Big Megapixel Talk [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: October 02, 2012, 11:20:28 PM »