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Author Topic: mhm... open letter to canon?  (Read 20073 times)

pasghik

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2012, 03:48:47 AM »
Back on topic, I can't believe how much anger the 6D has generated.  Peoples, its just a camera.  It will probably work very well, even if it is uninspiring to many.  There's plenty of other alternative cameras out there.  You don't have to pin your hopes and aspirations on this one.  If its not perfectly suited to your needs, don't buy it.  The best way of getting your message across to Canon is for them to see all of their 6Ds gathering dust on the shelf while the D600 sells like hotcakes.

You see, people are invested in glass. Personally I want to switch to Nikon, even though it will cost me around €1500. Canon users had pretty clear needs. Canon instead of fullfilling them, just f*cks around.
They give with one hand, but take with other. Or they give with both hands but want us to sell our kidney to get it.

G-serie:
Needed: 10-12 MP, fast lens with moderate zoom, swivel screen.
Thy did 15mp with heavy noise at iso100, they did 7x zoom lens f/2,8-....
Canon has made all combinations except the right one. In he year 2012 they finally come to where they started - G3.

5Dmk2 needed a better AF. Instead of simply putting 5 X-points (center & 1/3 rule) they made 2 cameras.
One with same one-center-point AF - €500 more expensive, another with super-pro AF - €1700 more  expensive. WTF?


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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2012, 03:48:47 AM »

Hillsilly

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2012, 04:26:32 AM »
I agree.  And I'm not reallly advocating a switch.  I just think that if the 6D is a sales disaster then Canon will have to give some serious thought to where they went wrong.  Although, realistically, I suspect it will be a sales success and the Canon execs will probably sit around slapping each other on their backs saying how awesome they (and the 6D) are.
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pasghik

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2012, 05:02:55 AM »
I agree.  And I'm not reallly advocating a switch.  I just think that if the 6D is a sales disaster then Canon will have to give some serious thought to where they went wrong.  Although, realistically, I suspect it will be a sales success and the Canon execs will probably sit around slapping each other on their backs saying how awesome they (and the 6D) are.

Economically it will be good. That is the problem. Canon suck out money, that is the only thing they care.

Originally I wanted to get 60D after 350D. But compared to 50D they removed AF MA (very important thing to me), removed joystick, removed big wheel. So I basically had to get 7D which was €500 more expensive and almost same price as 5Dmk2 at that time. I got 5Dmk2. Now I am politely asked to go another €1500 higher to get 5Dmk3, because Canon is not willing to upgrade AF on €2000 FF cameras.

F*ck your customers is good business strategy, but not for a long time.
"I am so out of here."

Hillsilly

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2012, 05:46:44 AM »
I've got an older 1Ds Mkii and was hoping that a 6D might be the next thing for me.  I'll like the smaller size and the video capabilities.  Higher ISOs, WiFi and GPS will also be fun to play with.  But there are a few things that aren't quite as good.  Just wish the decision was a bit easier. 
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Canon-F1

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2012, 07:03:47 AM »
Originally I wanted to get 60D after 350D. But compared to 50D they removed AF MA (very important thing to me), removed joystick, removed big wheel. So I basically had to get 7D which was €500 more expensive and almost same price as 5Dmk2 at that time. I got 5Dmk2. Now I am politely asked to go another €1500 higher to get 5Dmk3, because Canon is not willing to upgrade AF on €2000 FF cameras.

yep that´s my problem with canon at the moment too.

looking at the 6D and the price tag of 2099 euro... i don´t see why they could not include an AF similiar to the 7D´s.

the 6D is not so expensive to manufacture (it´s just a FF 60D) and none of it´s features justify the price.
it´s because canon thinks they can charge that money.

and if they made that decision (crippling the AF)  because they want to protect 5D MK3 sales.... why not giving the 5D MK3 the GPS and WIFI features?

that makes no real sense to me...  ???
maybe canon thinks the 5D MK3 customers are more likely to buy the overpriced canon grips?

anyway... the 5D MK3 offers enough to differentiate it from the 6D.. even when the 6D has an AF similiar to the 7D. 

or at least all AF points should be cross sensors.. is it that hard?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 07:10:44 AM by Canon-F1 »
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aj1575

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2012, 07:37:08 AM »
...Although, realistically, I suspect it will be a sales success and the Canon execs will probably sit around slapping each other on their backs saying how awesome they (and the 6D) are.
If it becomes a sales success, then Canon did mostly right with the 6D. There will always be some people who had wished for another camera, or think that more should be included for the same price. But that is just the way it is.

thebowtie

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2012, 07:39:08 AM »

We are all free to choose any manufacturer we want.
...
If you are saying people should cram their complaining, yeah, then I agree completely.
+1  :)
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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2012, 07:39:08 AM »

Canon-F1

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2012, 07:40:43 AM »

We are all free to choose any manufacturer we want.
...
If you are saying people should cram their complaining, yeah, then I agree completely.
+1  :)

as if it is that easy..   ::)  for guys with just a kit lens that is maybe the case.

but not for people who build a lens collection worth 5 figures.
6D, 5D MK2, 7D, 550D... a lot of Glass.

aj1575

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2012, 07:56:10 AM »
...
looking at the 6D and the price tag of 2099 euro... i don´t see why they could not include an AF similiar to the 7D´s.

the 6D is not so expensive to manufacture (it´s just a FF 60D) and none of it´s features justify the price.
it´s because canon thinks they can charge that money.

and if they made that decision (crippling the AF)  because they want to protect 5D MK3 sales.... why not giving the 5D MK3 the GPS and WIFI features?

that makes no real sense to me...  ???
maybe canon thinks the 5D MK3 customers are more likely to buy the overpriced canon grips?
...
or at least all AF points should be cross sensors.. is it that hard?
I know from other consumer products (I'm a mechanical engineer, desining stuff) how difficult it is to find a balance between features an price. So I would be very carefull to question Canons logic in the way they put features into a camera.

I'm sure you can't tell us how much the 7D AF costs, and how much the one in the 6D is, or what is the price for the GPS and WiFi integration. I know, your reaction will be, this is not expensive, there are SD-Cards with WiFi and every smartphone has GPS and so on. But there is a price tag on every feature that is included in a consumer product. The marketing sets a target price, and tells the engineering department in what features it must differ from the cameras above and below in the range.
Is the 6D therefore a rip-off at 2099$? No, because you got a camera that has features included that are worth 2099$
(Well actually they are worth much less, since the price of the camera includes much more than the cost of the pieces it is made of; R+D, manufacturing, logisitcs, marketing, profit (for Canon and the reseller) and so on).

What you can do, is complaining, that you would like to have other features, but then you also need to tell which of the existing ones you like to drop.

For the 6D this means for example, that if you like to have all cross type AF-Sensors, then you probably need to live without the -3EV in the middle, and have all -1EV. You weight up, what you do prefer.

Canon-F1

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2012, 08:02:03 AM »
I know from other consumer products (I'm a mechanical engineer, desining stuff)

that´s nice. i am too.. was working for thyssen a few years. now im self employed.


Quote
Is the 6D therefore a rip-off at 2099$? No, because you got a camera that has features included that are worth 2099$

well i guess you can´t tell me what the manufacturing cost of the 6D is either?
so your guess is as good as mine.  :)

my guess is based on the fact that the 60D sells for 950 euro (the 7D for 1200 euro) and i don´t see any feature that is worth 1150 euro more. 

the FF sensor?  ::)

and yes.. i say GPS and WIFI will not make manufacturing much more expensive.

canon is simply maximising profit.. that´s ok for canon to try... but don´t try to sell me the 6D as a bargain.

it´s like dpreview wrote:

Quote
Canon appears almost to have gone the other way, removing as much as it thinks it can get away with at the price. The result is the kind of conservative, slightly unimaginative design that's become the company's hallmark.


« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 08:10:13 AM by Canon-F1 »
6D, 5D MK2, 7D, 550D... a lot of Glass.

Northstar

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2012, 08:23:31 AM »
Many of these executives at canon are like execs at most other large corporations, they're good at corporate politics and doing things that help them move up the corporate ladder.  This doesnt make them great at making business decisions, just great at saying the right things to the right people.  After many years they finally get to a level in the company where they have the final say and/or significant influence on the business strategy, and features/pricing of a product like this new 6d or the ridiculously priced 24-70ii....and they end up making average business decisions which lead to "ok" products.

Steve Jobs constant focus on the product at Apple should be the most important class they teach at business school.  Make things that customers will fall in love with....profits will follow.   Not many people will fall in love with a canon 6d...IMO.

Edit...there was a "big miss" this year, but it actually came from Nikon.  They came with a 36mp "slower" camera that isn't as good of an "all around" camera as the 5d3...and targeted towards a narrower group of photogs.  But what if Nikon had done what canon did by simply upgrading their very popular d700?   They would've had a d800 out at $3,000, 22mp, 8fps, AND the much better sensor everyone keeps talking about....that would've forced canon to adjust their pricing a bit on the 5d3.




« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 08:46:30 AM by Northstar »
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marekjoz

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2012, 08:36:47 AM »
So this is the letter, we could send :)

"We, the community of canonrumors.com, we wish to thank you for the effort you make for the world of imaging products. However, observing your marketing decisions in the area of the DSLR products line - it's specifications and pricing - we believe, that our own experience, expectations and loyalty were often omitted. The best example is the EOS 6D - so long expected by many of us and dissapointing by even more. To help you achieve even better results as  from the technical as well from marketing and business points of view, we think, that our help will be more than good welcomed by your DSLR's department. Therefore we strongly advice you to send to each of us on this forum, having, let's say 830 comments and more, samples of the newest DSLRs, mirrorlesses and lenses for testing purposes (we could also use it for casual business purposes as nothing makes the better promotion as the fact, that it can earn for itself). Addresses for delivery we will send to you via PM system on this site, or on regular e-mail basis.
We appreciate your attention, hope you understand our concerns and have strong faith in our perspective cooperation. After having tested the gear you would sent, we promise to write only truth, no matter if you like or not. We hope, that you understand, that this is crucial for really objective results, and only they can lead to achieve better results. Those 20 sets of your best and newest technology might be the best investment in marketing and testing since the world has seen the first EOS on the planet.
Looking forward to here from you soon, we send you best wishes and thank again for understanding."

:D
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 08:44:52 AM by marekjoz »
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Stewbyyy

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2012, 09:07:12 AM »
I have a 6D on pre-order...

It's perfect for me. It will go very well with my 60D. I shoot some sports, gigs and portraits. The 60D has always been perfectly fine for my sports needs so I can keep it for that. The 6D will be perfect for portraits and great for gigs since I only really use the centre AF point anyway.

For me, buying a 5D Mark II would be pointless, as buying CF cards to replace my SD cards would put me around the same price point as the 6D, if not, more. The 5D III, although perfect, is out of reach.
I'm not a professional, I shoot and earn money from it, I shoot for fun, I'm going to college for photography. The 6D is perfect for me, in absolutely every way. Yeah, I would have liked the 7D's AF system, but 9 points doesn't bother me, I wouldn't care if it only had the one point in the centre - that's all I pretty much use.

It's been said that you get what you pay for. You're never going to get exactly what you want, a compromise has to be made someone. If you really want better AF then save your money for a few extra months and get a 5D Mark III. Is it really that hard a concept to understand?

I don't care that it has SD cards over CF cards, in 4 years of using a DSLR I've never had an SD card fail on me. Class 10 SD cards are perfectly fast for practically anything, my 60D's buffer clears quickly and the 6D should be fine.

Canon didn't mess this up, it's an entry level full frame camera.
Treat full frame and APS-C sensors independently of each other.
APS-C:
650D - it'll do pretty much anything you need but it's a simple camera with a few cool features to appeal to consumers.
60D - more robust camera than the 650D, better built, better features, not necessarily aimed at people looking to just take snapshots.
7D - top of the line, professional features, built like a brick.

Full frame:
6D - it'll do pretty much anything you need but it's a simple camera with a few cool features to appeal to consumers.
5D Mark III - more robust camera, better built, better AF, less gimmicky, built for professional use.
1DX - Top of the line, if you want the absolute best then this is what you buy.

I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2012, 09:07:12 AM »

Canon-F1

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2012, 09:22:13 AM »
I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

or maybe they think they get a better deal for less money from nikon these days.

 
6D, 5D MK2, 7D, 550D... a lot of Glass.

aj1575

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2012, 09:28:47 AM »
Steve Jobs constant focus on the product at Apple should be the most important class they teach at business school.  Make things that customers will fall in love with....profits will follow.   Not many people will fall in love with a canon 6d...IMO.
I'm glad you mention Steve Jobs. What would a camera look like, if it were made by Apple?

Just look at the iPod. People and reviewers were asking for FM-receivers all the time, Apple never included it. The ability to record on an iPod, like it was possible with many other MP3 players; no, never on an iPod.

Appled trashed Flash on the smartphone; can you remember the outcry of the puplic, and especially the reviewers, what! no flash, they have to do something about it.

Or the iPhone an exchancable batteries. There is still discussion going on about that, like with many other things Apple did.
So like here in the forum, there many people complaining about apple products too.

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Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2012, 09:28:47 AM »