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Author Topic: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]  (Read 13073 times)

awinphoto

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 12:41:07 PM »
To me, for what I use my flashes for, what I would like to see are universal canon rechargeable batteries for the flashes... Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII.  It would encourage the purchase of more of THEIR BATTERIES, be rechargeable, and encourage their branding than plunking $10-15 on a new pack of AA's every few shoots... That would be a change I would upgrade my flashes for. 
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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 12:41:07 PM »

7enderbender

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2011, 12:52:12 PM »
Wifi and Bluetooth have been problematic in the past for quick time critical information flow - flash sync speed.
Though the frequencies themselves might be used at low powers.

Other options are multiband radio's like you get in mobile phones to work in many locations - or mayebe even plug-in radio card's for different regions.

But if they licenced PW technology then the camera could have a PW transmitter fitted and the flash could be the receiver - or vis versa in mew bodies or with the new  ST-E2.

I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not they license/buy PW technology. Even the Pocket Wizards come in different versions for different regions. And even then there there may be countries where it's technically illegal to sell and/or use them.

In any case I don't see how Canon would sell a flash with a built in wireless thingy in the US when they'd have to tell their customers that they could be in trouble when traveling to Paris or Melbourne with it. Maybe they could make it "multiband" like with cell phones? Seems like too much hassle for a camera company that wants to sell one version of a product world wide.

If it was just about putting in a few parts for 50 cents somebody would have done it already. For everything else we can thank our FCCs and their counterparts in the world for overregulating very basic local use of radio frequencies.
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7enderbender

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2011, 12:58:16 PM »
To me, for what I use my flashes for, what I would like to see are universal canon rechargeable batteries for the flashes... Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII.  It would encourage the purchase of more of THEIR BATTERIES, be rechargeable, and encourage their branding than plunking $10-15 on a new pack of AA's every few shoots... That would be a change I would upgrade my flashes for.

Why? I'm perfectly happy with the universal AA batteries which I can buy at any gas station or convenience store anywhere in the world. And I don't have any BP whatever just lying around. I invested in a few batteries for my 5DII and wouldn't want to contribute to their early demise by using them in my flashes. I mean, really, we are looking here at the problems resulting from lacking international standards (radio frequencies) and you are advocating a proprietary battery solution for flashes as a replacement for what works everywhere and is cheap? And for more power there are already external battery packs.

And why $10-15 for AA per shoot? What's wrong with rechargeable AAs? 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 01:01:56 PM by 7enderbender »
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unfocused

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2011, 01:10:36 PM »
I don't know anything about the regulatory environment, but I hope this is true. I'd love to have radio/wi-fi/bluetooth or whatever flash control with full E-TTL features.

If they do this, they'll most likely make receivers for the existing 580EXII and 430EXII. I'd also bet that the next generation of cameras will have the transmitters built in, like the infrared flash control for the 7D. In fact, I'd guess they'll offer both for the near term, so that cameras and flashes remain compatible for at least the next few years.

I'd also guess that the next generation of strobes will have the LED auxiliary light that the new 320 EX has. Must keep the video market happy.

Compatibility with third-party radio control? I'm doubting that's a priority. Doing a third-party vendor a favor is usually not on any company's priority list.
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awinphoto

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2011, 01:20:03 PM »
Basically because of the difference between the memory loss within rechargeable AA batteries... The fact that when you first buy the batteries, you may (for instance) get 400 pops per charge then shortly after it drops to 300 then down to 150... you get my point... The canon batteries, while a tad more than $10-15, are 1 battery vs 4, you can pick up the BP-511's on ebay for a song and a dance or you can get the bigger 5d,7d batteries for a bit more, have more charge in them, and at least with the 5d's/7D's you get a good computer chip that tells you how that battery is doing and if you need a new one... On the metz 70mz series they provide them with a rechargeable battery and that thing is a beast.  Those lasted me 2-3 times the shooting time than many colleagues who had the regular flashes... unfortunately I had to part ways with that flash unit but I'd like to see that kinda battery implemented in these flashes... Even rebels have rechargeable batteries and the 580's are getting into the lower rebel price range so i'd like to see that upgrade.  Heck i'm sure if I was at Canon's R&D and proposed that, I'd get a raise.  =)  It's a win win for canon shooters with several spare canon batteries and canon inc. 
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Lawliet

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2011, 01:27:48 PM »
Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII.   

The reason I leave the 1D4 at home at longer trips is the logistics mess you describe.
Eneloops power everything from flashlights to GPS and hand radios to all kinds of photography equipment across brands- one type of charger, one pool of cells.

We could talk about CR123/18650 dual purpose slots, but such expensive batteries with such a limited scope?

awinphoto

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2011, 04:13:41 PM »
Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII.   

The reason I leave the 1D4 at home at longer trips is the logistics mess you describe.
Eneloops power everything from flashlights to GPS and hand radios to all kinds of photography equipment across brands- one type of charger, one pool of cells.

We could talk about CR123/18650 dual purpose slots, but such expensive batteries with such a limited scope?

I know I dont speak for everybody, but I just dont really see a downside for canon to produce and provide a battery with at least their top of the line flash unit that can be used with their cameras.  A flash is an accessory and part of bigger system.  The average professional I would guesstimate would have 2-3 spare batteries, especially if they shoot alot, and most, while on location, typically carries their charger with them if needed.  If you're at a wedding and you run out of AA's, you have to either stop using flash, have your assistant run to 7-11 to grab more, or improvise.  If you use the same batteries your camera use, pop in a spare battery and put the other one on charge if available.  I think if they find ways to simplify and unite consumables such as batteries it would be more convenient in the long run and better in every regard. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2011, 04:13:41 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2011, 04:54:01 PM »
I know I dont speak for everybody, but I just dont really see a downside for canon to produce and provide a battery with at least their top of the line flash unit that can be used with their cameras.  A flash is an accessory and part of bigger system...I think if they find ways to simplify and unite consumables such as batteries it would be more convenient in the long run and better in every regard.

Agreed.  I like the fact that both my 5DII and my 7D use the same battery, and it would be great if that battery would power a flash, too.  But it's only viable IF they keep the same battery through many product updates.  I really can't wait for induction charging to become a practical reality - one charging pad that you just set your devices or batteries on to charge.  As it is, I've got about 8 different chargers just for camera/video gear...
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t.linn

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2011, 07:16:34 PM »
I'm a little surprised by the moderate levels of enthusiam for this potential breakthrough in flash photography.  The idea of being able to control flashes remotely without spending hundreds of dollars in additional gear *per flash* plus the loss of high speed sync, etc., is HUGE for me.  People have been asking for this forever.  I'm surprised it has taken so long for someone to do it.

This rumor may be CR2 but remember that it is undisputed that Canon filed a patent last year for wireless flash control using ZigBee.  (It was mentioned on this site.)  I don't think there's any reason to think that the protocol will be anything other than this. 

I can't' wait!!!

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2011, 08:11:47 PM »
To me, for what I use my flashes for, what I would like to see are universal canon rechargeable batteries for the flashes... Use the outdated BP-511's we all have from our older cameras and have several laying around, and make the flashes compatible with those batteries, or even the new batteries for the 7D/5D mII.  It would encourage the purchase of more of THEIR BATTERIES, be rechargeable, and encourage their branding than plunking $10-15 on a new pack of AA's every few shoots... That would be a change I would upgrade my flashes for.

The reason we do not see BP-511 LI-on batteries being used with the higher powered flash units has to do with their current output characteristics.  They just can't handle the high current level it takes to run a high powered flash.  They are ok for the on-camera flashes which charge slowly, but if you want to have high current, you would need multiple lithium-ion batteries in parallel.  The relatively high internal resistance is the issue.  At low currents, it is a non problem, but at large currents it is a big issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

Internal resistance

The internal resistance of standard (Cobalt) lithium-ion batteries is high compared to both other rechargeable chemistries such as nickel-metal hydride and nickel-cadmium, and LiFePO4 and lithium-polymer cells.[43] Internal resistance increases with both cycling and age.[39][44][45] Rising internal resistance causes the voltage at the terminals to drop under load, which reduces the maximum current draw. Eventually increasing resistance means that the battery can no longer operate for an adequate period.

Lawliet

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2011, 09:39:02 PM »
I think if they find ways to simplify and unite consumables such as batteries it would be more convenient in the long run and better in every regard.

We have that: AA, 18650. The LiFe 18650 even deliver serious current, more power from a single cell then those external hvppacks for the 580EXII.
The 5DII/7D uses a different battery then the 1D4, and what are the chances that any 3rd party devices will use one of those batteries? And thats only for single brand shooters, also use Nikon and you end up with 5 or 6 additional different battery types you can't swap among devices and can't even buy next door if you run out of rechargeables, and even with a charger it takes at least 3x times as long then recharging a set of AAs that stores the same power.

And lets not talk about the fights over power outlets on a safari that all those chargers cause. ;)

ronderick

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 11:43:15 PM »
Agreed.  I like the fact that both my 5DII and my 7D use the same battery, and it would be great if that battery would power a flash, too.  But it's only viable IF they keep the same battery through many product updates.  I really can't wait for induction charging to become a practical reality - one charging pad that you just set your devices or batteries on to charge.  As it is, I've got about 8 different chargers just for camera/video gear...

Yeah, I think that's a smart move on the part of Canon to use the same type of batteries for the two cameras. Again, with the planned Camera cross media dock somewhere down the line, it would be nice to eliminate the need for keep different kinds of chargers handy (at least for one's home).

What's even better - a portable version of the charging dock (OK, I might be getting a bit into the sci-fi realm here...)

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awinphoto

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2011, 10:16:02 AM »
I think if they find ways to simplify and unite consumables such as batteries it would be more convenient in the long run and better in every regard.

We have that: AA, 18650. The LiFe 18650 even deliver serious current, more power from a single cell then those external hvppacks for the 580EXII.
The 5DII/7D uses a different battery then the 1D4, and what are the chances that any 3rd party devices will use one of those batteries? And thats only for single brand shooters, also use Nikon and you end up with 5 or 6 additional different battery types you can't swap among devices and can't even buy next door if you run out of rechargeables, and even with a charger it takes at least 3x times as long then recharging a set of AAs that stores the same power.

And lets not talk about the fights over power outlets on a safari that all those chargers cause. ;)

If what you say is correct and the current batteries and technology couldn't use the current batch of batteries for flashes due to power, I think it would be Canon's best interest to produce a battery that could be cross platform compatible or at least create a rechargeable battery that could be charged in the current canon chargers.  A large high capacity and high voltage battery can be created, if metz can, canon can.  There are a lot of things I would LOVE to have on flashed but after moving from metz to canon, the AA thing has slowly began to irk me.  =)  Just a personal quirk 
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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2011, 10:16:02 AM »

Stuart

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2011, 10:48:56 AM »
I'm a little surprised by the moderate levels of enthusiam for this potential breakthrough in flash photography.  The idea of being able to control flashes remotely without spending hundreds of dollars in additional gear *per flash* plus the loss of high speed sync, etc., is HUGE for me.  People have been asking for this forever.  I'm surprised it has taken so long for someone to do it.

This rumor may be CR2 but remember that it is undisputed that Canon filed a patent last year for wireless flash control using ZigBee.  (It was mentioned on this site.)  I don't think there's any reason to think that the protocol will be anything other than this. 

I can't' wait!!!

+1  this is huge!
If canon start allowing Wireless comms in thier equipment, then is can get an IP address, be remote controlled, be wireless tethered, maybe even shoot in 3D with 2 camera's acting totether.
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anthony11

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2011, 11:08:35 AM »
are multiband radio's like you get in mobile phones to work in many locations - or mayebe even plug-in radio card's for different regions.
Other products manage to do the former, but Canon doesn't have much of a history of doing the right thing for the consumer.

The big question for me is why, in 2011, is optical triggering still the norm?  It seems like a technology from the 20's or something.

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Re: Radio in New Canon Flashes? [CR2]
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2011, 11:08:35 AM »