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Author Topic: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600  (Read 26795 times)

elflord

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2012, 08:35:34 AM »
I am also starting to get very suspicious about DxO Mark. Why do they have results for Nikon in a heartbeat all the time?

The aggregate scores come out in favor of Sony sensors because of dynamic range at low ISO.

Quote

Here's my plan, before I do it.

Take two or more successive exposures in RAW at the same settings, and repeat this process to obtain other pairs of image data with various under/normal/over exposure settings and various ISOs.

Then I will measure the actual noise by calculating the difference between identical images. The means of the data will be adjusted to account for a tiny variation in exposure times. Any difference between the images would be purely due to the random variation of noise.

Then I will use the old formula from science for relative error (observed-expected)/expected * 100 and then use the RE to calculate the signal to noise ratio.

And one number is meaningless. DxO Mark loves to give the highest ISO where (in their system of experimentation) the SNR falls below about 80-85%, a "critical point" of image quality.

Before you do that -- take a look at DxOs measurements. They don't just give one number.  DxO do report all their measurements -- not just SNR 18%, but the curves for different levels.

By looking at the SNR curves, you can get a sense of where the dynamic range advantage of the Sony sensors comes from -- in the "full SNR" curves, the SNR in the shadows barely changes from ISO200 to ISO100 with the Canon sensors.

Their dynamic range is ultimately based partly on signal to noise, because their definition of the "black point" for purpose of dynamic range is the baseline noise level.

EDIT: I have some comments about your high ISO hypothetical. First, the phenomenom you describe does not happen all that often. SNR18% measurement usually follows a pretty much follows a straight line. Your comment about the 1DX ("with cameras like the 1D X, the SNR barely falls any further for a long, long way." ) is not true for cameras that have been tested (it follows a pretty straight line) and when the 1DX is tested, it will probably be shown to be false for the 1DX too.

Second, I don't really agree that the second camera is "obviously"  "65% better".  The assertion is based on one data point. Any single data point will stop short of giving you a complete picture. Also, the SNR you use doesn't make whole lot of sense for a couple of reasons. First, it's typically measured in decibels (basically you want the log ratio). Second, in the range you would reasonably care about, signal is greater than noise, so it would never be less than 100%.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 10:23:51 AM by elflord »

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2012, 09:03:15 AM »
based at??? your own tests

i thought that´s pretty obvious?

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2012, 10:34:06 AM »
Why is this surprising? Seems to me if you want low iso dr you go Nikon, if you want high iso performance you go canon.

I would tend to agree with your statement regarding the D800 for example, which i find unusable above ISO 1600 personally.  However, in terms of high ISO, the Nikon D4 is on par or slightly better then the 1DX.

Incidently, i find focus so slow on my D800 that when shooting at iso 100 indoors with a flash, i prefers the 1DX.  With the right lens it provides amazing result.  I did not expect that...off topic here but thought i would share...

The D4 won't match the 1DX out in a night sports event.  I know so :)
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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2012, 10:56:22 AM »
i had a closer look at the D600 autofocus... as good as it looks on paper i think it´s not that the 6D is much worse.

sure the D600 has more AF points but they are so cramped together that 66% are useless.

i could not test sport or action and how good the D600 is at tracking moving objects.

based at??? your own tests

 I don't even see why these camera's are being compared. The 5D3 is equal or better in every way except in DR. Especially the AF, which just makes any nikon camera cry and weep in the corner.

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2012, 11:18:24 AM »


 I don't even see why these camera's are being compared. The 5D3 is equal or better in every way except in DR. Especially the AF, which just makes any nikon camera cry and weep in the corner.

This is a typical illogical statement
Tell me in what way, I know at least 3 journalists and photographers  at different  photo magazines who are trying out the AF from Nikon and Canon
it takes a month to use different tests to determine what benefits one or the other system has.


Don't be so naive, 15-cross type points for nikon, 41-crosstype for canon and 5 of those are double cross-type which nikon doesn't have, Nor any other manufacturer.

Yes, I've demoed nikons great 51 point system but Canon's just takes it lunch money away.

Plus, most agency's have Nikon and Canon gear but so what? You should know better that real photogs will chose a camera mostly on ergos than anything else. so nikon shooter will stay with nikon and Canon shooters will stay with canon because of muscle memory.

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2012, 11:22:22 AM »
read what you wrote again  , any Nikon camera

Thats right, any nikon camera. I just mentioned the best nikon has to offer at the moment.

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2012, 11:28:46 AM »
read what you wrote again  , any Nikon camera

Thats right, any nikon camera.

then read my answer again about the time it takes to evaluate a AF system

Read my answer again, I've already have. You know your quite naive that the 51-point system is almost exactly the same from the D3-D700 system. They use a multi-cam 3500 Series AF system, which is good but old already which the canon 61-point system make it show its age.

I've always felt its AF was hesitant, while the canon just hits period.

The burden of proof is on you, and many others have already agreed that the 61-Point AF system is the best thing since sliced bread.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 11:32:58 AM by RLPhoto »

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2012, 11:33:58 AM »
You are not saying anything

http://xerodigital.ca/canon-1dx-nikon-d4-compare-wedding-photogrpahers/
The 5D3 is 99% the same AF performance as the 1DX.

Nothing more needs to be said to you.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 11:39:06 AM by RLPhoto »

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2012, 12:36:32 PM »
I am expecting the "I am rubber, you are glue" argument pretty soon.  =)  Lets face it, there are people who will always prefer one system over the other, but from the vast majority of review websites, the 5d3 does beat the D800 in speed and accuracy while the d800 was more consistent, but always a hair off... that being said, the 5d3 would then beat the D600, and the D600 does beat the new canon camera....  the rest is pure semantics. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2012, 01:06:22 PM »
Nikon and Canon have two different visions of how an AF system should be and  function, and with what parameters. There are differences in response, starting up , stopping down and loops to hit the target in different  scenes. Canon have  chosen  for example  up to f-5, 6, Nikon to F-8.
It would take a very long time to test out which of the systems is generally best, it is probably not doable.
There are reports that the Canon's AF seems faster but the number of keepers at  moving subject is greater in Nikon, after some time when colleagues have tried  out made we usually emerge which camera produces the best keepers in similar situations, as it emerged with 1dmk3 and d3


First off, the D600's AF system is NOT the same as that found in the D4 or D800. The d600 only has 39 af points, which is essentially a "revamped" D7000 AF. If you look around enough, you will

I primarily shoot sports so AF is critical for me. That being said, a few weeks ago I was shooting volleyball alongside a D4 user. He was switching between his 24-70 and 70-200. I was using my 5d3 paired with my 70-200. When reviewing photos between plays he kept complaining that his D4 kept missing. Mind you this is volleyball, which is a hard sport to shoot in and of itself. However, even for the simplest shots i.e. when the players were serving (nobody else in the frame), his D4 had trouble locking on.

Nearly all of my shots were keepers. Anything I missed was simply user error. I find myself having a hard time in post-processing because its hard to pick out which ones to keep and which to delete.

Shooting through the net, my 5D3 had no problem locking on to the players. His D4 on the other hand, not so much. And from what I keep hearing, Canon's new 61 AF system just works and does it brilliantly. The D4 on the other hand works, but doesn't do anything extraordinary.


On another note, the D600 is capable of shooting sports. I met a guy who had a D4, a D800, and a D600. He was testing out the D600 to see its capabilities as a backup sports body. He seemed to be happy with it. However, he was NOT happy that it did not have a dedicated back-button AF.

The d600 was too small small for my hands (even the 5D3 is a little small for me) and I never liked the button layout/ergonomics of Nikon bodies. The 5D3 is thicker and feels much beefier in my hands. The grip on the Nikon is too small and narrow, which makes my fingers feel very cramped.

Somebody mentioned earlier that people who've used the systems long enough prefer one over the other simply due to ergonomics. I've had my fair share of uses of Nikon bodies and they just don't feel right in my big hands.

Both systems perform so similarly in real world situations (stop oogling over the specs) that it doesn't really matter which system you use. I'm pretty sure that before whatever new camera came along you had absolutely no problems getting the necessary shots.
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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2012, 01:14:48 PM »
Nikon and Canon have two different visions of how an AF system should be and  function, and with what parameters. There are differences in response, starting up , stopping down and loops to hit the target in different  scenes. Canon have  chosen  for example  up to f-5, 6, Nikon to F-8.
It would take a very long time to test out which of the systems is generally best, it is probably not doable.
There are reports that the Canon's AF seems faster but the number of keepers at  moving subject is greater in Nikon, after some time when colleagues have tried  out made we usually emerge which camera produces the best keepers in similar situations, as it emerged with 1dmk3 and d3


First off, the D600's AF system is NOT the same as that found in the D4 or D800. The d600 only has 39 af points, which is essentially a "revamped" D7000 AF. If you look around enough, you will

I primarily shoot sports so AF is critical for me. That being said, a few weeks ago I was shooting volleyball alongside a D4 user. He was switching between his 24-70 and 70-200. I was using my 5d3 paired with my 70-200. When reviewing photos between plays he kept complaining that his D4 kept missing. Mind you this is volleyball, which is a hard sport to shoot in and of itself. However, even for the simplest shots i.e. when the players were serving (nobody else in the frame), his D4 had trouble locking on.

Nearly all of my shots were keepers. Anything I missed was simply user error. I find myself having a hard time in post-processing because its hard to pick out which ones to keep and which to delete.

Shooting through the net, my 5D3 had no problem locking on to the players. His D4 on the other hand, not so much. And from what I keep hearing, Canon's new 61 AF system just works and does it brilliantly. The D4 on the other hand works, but doesn't do anything extraordinary.


On another note, the D600 is capable of shooting sports. I met a guy who had a D4, a D800, and a D600. He was testing out the D600 to see its capabilities as a backup sports body. He seemed to be happy with it. However, he was NOT happy that it did not have a dedicated back-button AF.

The d600 was too small small for my hands (even the 5D3 is a little small for me) and I never liked the button layout/ergonomics of Nikon bodies. The 5D3 is thicker and feels much beefier in my hands. The grip on the Nikon is too small and narrow, which makes my fingers feel very cramped.

Somebody mentioned earlier that people who've used the systems long enough prefer one over the other simply due to ergonomics. I've had my fair share of uses of Nikon bodies and they just don't feel right in my big hands.

Both systems perform so similarly in real world situations (stop oogling over the specs) that it doesn't really matter which system you use. I'm pretty sure that before whatever new camera came along you had absolutely no problems getting the necessary shots.

One of the biggest complaints of my fellow user is that even in low ISO, primarily a game whereby it is very sunny and one team has white jerseys, the D4 shows a higher OOF rate than the 1DX (which is 0).  The 1D Mark IV had this same problem.  Furthermore, the 1DX beats the living crap out of the D4 where football lighting is low.  So Canon wins with the top end at least, thus eliminating validity of those claiming that ALL Nikon cameras outperform their respective Canon counterparts.

The only metric I go by is keepers when I get home on my computer, and so far yes,  the 5D3 and 1D4 have had a fair share of misses, but the 1DX I have had absolutely no misses.
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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2012, 01:18:54 PM »
Nikon and Canon have two different visions of how an AF system should be and  function, and with what parameters. There are differences in response, starting up , stopping down and loops to hit the target in different  scenes. Canon have  chosen  for example  up to f-5, 6, Nikon to F-8.
It would take a very long time to test out which of the systems is generally best, it is probably not doable.
There are reports that the Canon's AF seems faster but the number of keepers at  moving subject is greater in Nikon, after some time when colleagues have tried  out made we usually emerge which camera produces the best keepers in similar situations, as it emerged with 1dmk3 and d3


First off, the D600's AF system is NOT the same as that found in the D4 or D800. The d600 only has 39 af points, which is essentially a "revamped" D7000 AF. If you look around enough, you will

I primarily shoot sports so AF is critical for me. That being said, a few weeks ago I was shooting volleyball alongside a D4 user. He was switching between his 24-70 and 70-200. I was using my 5d3 paired with my 70-200. When reviewing photos between plays he kept complaining that his D4 kept missing. Mind you this is volleyball, which is a hard sport to shoot in and of itself. However, even for the simplest shots i.e. when the players were serving (nobody else in the frame), his D4 had trouble locking on.

Nearly all of my shots were keepers. Anything I missed was simply user error. I find myself having a hard time in post-processing because its hard to pick out which ones to keep and which to delete.

Shooting through the net, my 5D3 had no problem locking on to the players. His D4 on the other hand, not so much. And from what I keep hearing, Canon's new 61 AF system just works and does it brilliantly. The D4 on the other hand works, but doesn't do anything extraordinary.


On another note, the D600 is capable of shooting sports. I met a guy who had a D4, a D800, and a D600. He was testing out the D600 to see its capabilities as a backup sports body. He seemed to be happy with it. However, he was NOT happy that it did not have a dedicated back-button AF.

The d600 was too small small for my hands (even the 5D3 is a little small for me) and I never liked the button layout/ergonomics of Nikon bodies. The 5D3 is thicker and feels much beefier in my hands. The grip on the Nikon is too small and narrow, which makes my fingers feel very cramped.

Somebody mentioned earlier that people who've used the systems long enough prefer one over the other simply due to ergonomics. I've had my fair share of uses of Nikon bodies and they just don't feel right in my big hands.

Both systems perform so similarly in real world situations (stop oogling over the specs) that it doesn't really matter which system you use. I'm pretty sure that before whatever new camera came along you had absolutely no problems getting the necessary shots.

One of the biggest complaints of my fellow user is that even in low ISO, primarily a game whereby it is very sunny and one team has white jerseys, the D4 shows a higher OOF rate than the 1DX (which is 0).  The 1D Mark IV had this same problem.  Furthermore, the 1DX beats the living crap out of the D4 where football lighting is low.  So Canon wins with the top end at least, thus eliminating validity of those claiming that ALL Nikon cameras outperform their respective Canon counterparts.

The only metric I go by is keepers when I get home on my computer, and so far yes,  the 5D3 and 1D4 have had a fair share of misses, but the 1DX I have had absolutely no misses.

Aye. I've heard the same thing from all the camera reviewers as well, including those who have historically been die-hard Nikon users: The 1D X AF system is unbeatable.

Even in the bird and wildlife photography arena, which is admittedly a lot smaller, both Canon and Nikon users have raved about the 1D X AF system. I've even read a couple reviews that indicate the 1D X's facial recognition works with animals and birds, often in profile. O_o As bird photographer myself, I'd LOVE to get my hands on a 1D X, but as I don't make much money off of my photography, its really hard to justify the $7000 expenditure (especially on top of the $10k+ glass I'd need to go along with it.)
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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2012, 04:31:38 PM »
Sorry (I shoot canon) but I have to ask...

why is the 5d3 vs the d600?
will be a 6d vs d800 "test" too?

I'm getting the popcorn...  ;)

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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2012, 06:45:00 PM »
some of you fan boys are  incredible. Canon can not handle f-8, Nikon can.

Nikon can not handle F/4 and faster lenses, Canon can.

Canon 5D3 41 cross type F4 and faster sensitive AF points (5 dual cross type), Nikon D800 0.

From what I read it is an autofocus design choice a manufacturer has to make. Focus on designing for performance at large apertures or small ones. Apparently, at this point in tech, you can't have excellence at both. The latest AF systems show a particular differing design, that is all.

If you shoot large aperture portraiture, etc, the Canon AF design of the 5D3 and 1DX etc are better suited. If you shoot birds/wildlife, Nikon's latest design is beneficial.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 07:27:28 PM by Tammy »
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Re: Canon 5D3 vs. Nikon D600
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2012, 07:37:35 PM »
I've got both the Canon 5D mk lll and the Nikon D600. Without the analysing between them, for me I bought the Nikon D600 to use while travelling, being ideal for lighter, smaller and reduced the lens weight.

My Canon lens 17-40 4L, 24-70 2.8L, 100-400 4/5.6L (also used to take the 70-200 2.8L IS, but stopped this lens a while ago due to the weight) to the Nikon lens setup of 16-35 F4 VR and 28-300 VR.

I've got a Virgin flight coming up with just 6KG handle luggage allowance and one bag only. I've been checked at the check-in and caught a couple of times, over the limit. Then having to quickly spread the weight between the hold suite cases, which I don't like letting my expensive Canon white lens going in the hold.

So for me its fit for purpose.  :D