From 5D Mark II Team
Description of the problem:
When a Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM lens is mounted on the camera and the user manually changes focus (rotates focus ring), the lens changes the iris/aperture “by itself”, even when the camera is in full manual mode.
It is not normal, and should not happen. The tests were made by several users with many copies on many camera bodies, so it’s not an isolated lens problem.
▪ This malfunction always occurs in this situation:
When the camera is set to M (Manual) mode and in Live View mode (Still+Movie – Movie Display), which is the correct mode for “full manual control” in movie mode.
Read more about the issue below.
http://5dmark2.wordpress.com/2010/04/05/malfunction-in-firmware-2-0-4/
thanks everyone that sent this in
cr
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not cool
So glad someone else has noticed this. I’ve commented about this to people and no one else knew what I was talking about. ~Thanks for the post!
That sucks. Lets see how seriously Canon takes this issue, and how long it takes them to fix it. If they fix it.
@hangp:
Not cool indeed, especially for those who use that great Canon lens and some 3rd party ones with similar behavior.
We guess we can expect a fix at some point.
Full details are included in our report, and also some feedbacks that seem very plausible.
We discarded those feedbacks that were more likely to be wrong camera settings.
But the malfunction is real and confirmed.
Hopefully Canon will fix it at some point, and may also add some easy “fixes” / improvements that are requested since so long by thousands of users.
Check the REPORT carefully please: http://5dmark2.wordpress.com
Thanks.
Not cool, yes. But if this is the most serious bug in the firmware, and it took the whole 5D MkII community weeks to find it, then that is actually not so bad.
It does need to be fixed, obviously, but that should not be too hard, as apparently the bug is very reproducible.
Any news if the same bug also occurs with other older lenses? I have not checked myself, because I have never bothered with video, and therefore have not even installed 2.0.4. Maybe when 2.0.5 or 2.0.6 comes out and after 2 weeks there is no negative feedback ;-)
Two things
1. Is this the way Canon beta tests their firmware?
2. Will these problems with the Mark II cause Canon to reconsider adding functionality to cameras in the future?
will be fixed in 5DIII… ;-)
Is it the 100mm L, or the old version? I have the L version.
I have yet to install any of the recent firmware upgrades. as they say with firmware, don’t install it unless your equipment is having a problem. I’ve nothing against video, just don’t use it enough to bother with the upgrade.
There are a almost infinite combination of lenses and settings that exist for Canon, if it only happens in one case like this, I’m not suprised that it wasn’t found during the quick fix for the issue with 2.3.
Not the “most serious” but it’s there and make the great Canon 100mm 2.8 Macro unusable for serious video purposes (and probably other lenses too), which is a pain indeed
In fact it took less than 1 week to detect and a bit more to confirm, we didn’t just want to post something if it wasn’t fully confirmed.
We reported it to Canon last week and decided to make it public today, but it was already reported and confirmed (we received many feedbacks from users, but some of them were normal behavior or wrong camera setting, others were not clear or detailed enough, and others seem to be real)
The 5D2 has long life :) After so many stages we might end having an even more featured camera.
As you can see, we still keep on requesting features for Photographers too, like “Auto ISO limiters” and “more frames for Bracketing mode”.
This camera deserves those features.
Shhh If this gets out then everyone will want this feature. :)
sorry folks
It’s a problem of all Macro lens.
No Macro lens have a “real” constant aperture
Come on Canon. You should have this fixed by now. This is just poor quality control — nothing more.
It is happening to my 5D, not just with the 100 2.8, also with a 75-300 4-5.6 and with the 50 f1.4 not sure about the 16-35 2.8L not that I can remember.
It always happens while using the focus ring.
You actualy hear the diaphragm opening and closing repeatedly while turning the focus ring.
It also happens on firmware version 2.0.3
My workaround is moving the dial down to P, then back to M, turn the camera off then back on… it’s gone…
Now that I think of it.. it kind of happens when you change lenses…
I forgot to ask.. does someone have the link to firmware 1.1.0?? I can’t find it…
Are you sure you are recording video in M mode and Live View set to “Stills+Movie – Movie Display” (as we describe in the report)?
This behavior is “normal” in “Exposure Simulation” because it’s not the correct mode to get “full manual control” on movie mode, but it’s not normal in “Movie Display”.
Also, as we reported, it doesn’t happen with firmware 1.1.0 (and the correct camera settings)
This is normal for any macro lens, tested in a EOS 550D and it’s exactly the same. No problem in firmware.
The old 100mm macro works without problems..is only the IS version….
It happens in M mode during live view, I just checked again with all my lenses to be sure, I’ve been able to repeat the problem just with the 100 f2.8, and with the 75 – 300 f4 – 5.6 happens the same but when zooming.. even if zooming at f8 I double checked so i’m sure of this.
Also have to say that this happens with both 2.0.3 and 2.0.4
Also ask for the shutter closing after one minute on live view to be removed… it’s sooo annoying.
:-)
No need to request that, you can have it ON much longer :)
Be sure to set the “Auto Power off” for more than 1 minute! (1st “Settings” menu tab)
And you can also choose to have Live View metering time for more than 1 min.
Just to be sure:
Do you have Live View set to “Stills+Movie – Movie Display” or “Stills+Movie – Exposure Simulation”?
Please carefully check the description and our Video Tests on the Report at: http://5dmark2.wordpress.com
Be sure to have the CORRECT Live View settings before testing.
Really? People haven’t heard that macro lenses change aperture dependent on focus distance?
Sorry, but no, the problem we confirmed, report and show is with the non-L Canon 100mm 2.8 Macro (it doesn’t exclude the new “L” version from having the same behavior)
Please carefully check full report details and also what we show on the 2 video tests at: http://5dmark2.wordpress.com
EACH VIDEO has full details too (you have to click on the Youtube link at the top of the video to see them)
Also what we replied to someone who asked that on a comment on our blog post.
The report is very comprehensive.
Thanks.
I think you are actually correct. I dont have my manuals in front of me, but the macro or the macro flash came with a chart talking about this in a bit of detail.
umm are you sure this is not just the mandatory aperture shifts during focusing with a macros lens once you start getting into any of the nearer distances?
you never made this clear or not and this is a pretty critical point to clear up
do you have the problem even when turning focus near infinity too?
Quality control? This is very normal for Canon.
I complained about this right after the firmware was released.
I was trying to pull focus from minimum focus to about 2 feet. I lost 50% of my takes.
I hope this is fixable the 100mm non-L is(was) a good reasonably priced lens. Thanks for confirming 5D MKII Team.
Oh boy, I waited for weeks to make sure that there were no issues in this firmware .When I finally upgraded yesterday this was posted….
It does it on my 100 L.
It doesn’t on my 24L and 135L.
I think it is intentional, not a bug.
I think the aperture is opening and closing to automatically compensate for image magnification.
Looking through the comments above, it seems as if it is not a really a bug, but a missing feature:
Compensation for the change of the effective aperture in a macro lens as you change the focus.
The problem should systematically occur for all macro lenses. Although so far only the 100 L and non-L have been reported, I expect it to also occur for the 50 and 180, and for the non-Canon macros. What about the macro range of general purpose zooms?
In all auto modes it should not matter, because the TTL exposure measurement will correct for it. In full manual it is of course a problem and needs to be addressed.
Since the effective aperture as function of focus is easily tabulated, it should be easy to implement this missing feature.
There is something called “effective aperture”. When you focus very close in front of the lens, you effectively get less light into your lens, decreasing the apparent aperture. But that doesn’t open or close your aperture blades; it’s a physical effect.
Only thing I can think of is that the camera is trying to compensate for that by opening up the aperture, but if so many people have looked into it, someone must have thought of that already and discounted it.
I remember when this was happening before the firmware update too. Really bad of Canon to not be able to change the laws of physics with this new firmware.
How is it a problem in full manual? Are you saying the light meter is off?
???
“…Such a solution has its pros and cons. You must remember that, on passing to minimal focus, which amounts to 0.3 m here, the focal length will get shorter and the lens’s fastness will decrease near even f/5.6. You can see it directly when you look inside the barrel – going to about 0.5 m you can notice an aperture appearing in the optics’ field and it gets even narrower when you pass to 0.3 m. It is also good to remember that these 0.3 m are just the minimal focus value, calculated from the lens’s main plane. In reality, shooting in the 1:1 scale, the lens’s end is positioned only 13 cm from its subject. “
…it is from lens test
http://www.lenstip.com/214.1-Lens_review-Canon_EF_100_mm_f_2.8L_Macro_IS_USM.html
I think it is normal function this macro lens….
Wow sorry this takes the cake for the worst post ever on Canonrumors.com
If these people bothered to dismount their lens, and just look through the barrel when changing focus, they’ll notice that the 100mm Macro does this even when not mounted to any camera. All Macro lenses do this…the Aperture Diaphragm closes down as focus approaches MFD…this is what people refer to when they say that the “effective aperture” is smaller at macro distances
Mass paranoia. the moment something goes wrong once, thats it for the company.
Ormaybeyoujustsuck?
Sorry Dave that thumbs down was from me (by mistake).
I totally agree.
As soon as I saw it was from 5DII “team” I thought to myself something must be up.
The “team” just went a little lower in my level of respect. “They” are approaching Ken Rockwell levels of ineptitude.
LOL
Take a macro lens, rotate the focus ring…watch the aperture…it will change a bit depending on focus.
Oh god. There goes my trust for Canonrumors.com. Ever heard of floating lenses? Ever heard that the focal length decreases when macro lenses are focused towards MFD?
Just think about for a minute before you start posting stuff like this. Yet another example of paranoia and newbies who don’t know their equipment trying to act professional by talking over their heads.
I tested this on 2.0.3 with 100mm 2.8 non L
at aperture 2.8 no issue the movie gets darker
at aperture > 2.8 it happen as the 5D team guy said
what really happen is the camera tries to compensate for the lost of light from macro lens when focus changes
the point here is: why not change the shutter speed to conpensate?
correction
at aperture 2.8 no issue “but” the movie gets darker
The focus was moved from macro to infinity both ways in both videos.
The video tests are showing the aperture does not open (or close) and keep there, its behavior is VERY different.
Please check the whole report carefully.
too many people (or should i say jerks) are just abusing of the new like/dislike function to hide what some users say, without any real or valid reason, just to bother
not to mention the fools that like to impersonate others…
Registration required to post would be much more convenient. there are too many trolls on this site. Or at least a moderator
Because in full manual mode, you are in control of the shutter speed, so it is your task to do the correction ?!?
agreed. registration might be a bit unnecessary but a moderator would be excellent.
Sorry, but you are referring to a very different matter. You didn’t read the original FULL DETAILED REPORT with care, nor see the video tests, did you?
This iris behavior is completely different of what you explain.
Lot of people who posted here didn’t read the original report and are only speculating.
This is not just “our” own test and report at all… It was tested and confirmed by several pros who joined us.
The IRIS behavior is not normal, it’s completely clear on the video tests.
Call “newbies” to some pros who also reported this problem and are making films since decades… And of course know the 5D2 and its possibilities much deeper than normal users.
Sorry but you posted too fast to criticize, and didn’t read and see the original report and videos well enough.
Take a 65mm MP-E lens. The instruction manual for this lens has an aperture chart. For example, F/16 at a 5x magnification is actually F/96.
This phenomenon is well documented, and is normal behaviour. The effects are far more drastic on the MP-E, but they affect every macro lens.
Had a look at the link to the 5DII team site. Saw that they still list their most wanted requests. The only thing not there anymore is the 760 / 60 fps mode. That’s is probably because they know it’s allready there.
Just because they are pros in the film realm doesn’t mean they know anything about this issue.
If it happens normally with the lens at all other times… Why is it not normal when in video?
Ok, it seems most people posting here didn’t read nor see the videos well enough (or at all).
Most comments here are completely different from what we are reporting.
The variation in the real aperture is NOT what we are reporting and showing.
You can’t have it both ways. Either the aperture changes or the exposure changes. Which do you prefer? In movie mode, if the aperture is only in stops, I think you want the movie to get darker to avoid the pops in lightness as the aperture changes.
Or you could use a movie lens where the iris is infinitely adjustable.
I have a 400D with a Sigma 150mm macro lens.
The diaphragm is closing quite a lot when manually focused down to 1:1. Not easy to see through the front element, but very easy to see when the lens is taken off the camera. This lens has internal focusing.
And this occurs even without the 5D firmware.
This is not the issue with my MP-E 65mm, the diaphragm is not closing when focusing, and this lens does not have internal focusing.
I’m trying to decide between a 7D and 5D…. once I heard about this latest firmware update to do 25fps alongside the full frame sensor decided definatley go for the 5D…. now I’m not too sure…. do you reckon Canon will get this fixed?
Oh, I never thought of that! Thx :D
I just tested my MP-E lens, and the problem reported does not occur. If you rack focus (or magnification in the case of the MPE) while looking through the lens, you can see the apparent diameter of the aperture changing. It does NOT twitch like in the problem report video. (but I only did a very brief test)
But I suspect the MP-E is a special case. The aperture indicated on camera is not intended to be the actual aperture on this lens. With other lenses, though, the aperture reading is intended to be an accurate indication of the actual aperture. This is important for DOF and exposure calculations. Those calculations will fail on the MP-E unless you add an extra step to take the magnification into account.
I’ve no idea what you’re talking about!
> Is this the way Canon beta tests their firmware?
Why not? It’s the way Canon tests their hardware too!
If this phenomenon really is due to a macro lens design, why is it happening on my EF 300/4L IS, which is NOT a macro lens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APgK5gdM69M
What many of you are not understanding is that ‘effective aperture’–the loss of light due to high magnification–does not mean the physical aperture is stopping down. Please read my post on Fred Miranda for an explanation:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/885884/0#8327335
You can’t abuse it to hide what you don’t like, you only get one vote.
Incidents like this, and the very negative feedback it generates make it less and less likely that firmware upgrades will be offered in the future. Apple, Microsoft, Adobe (who just public beta tons to save money) etc take huge amounts of man hours alpha and beta testing software and still nobody expects version .0.1 to be anywhere near finished. Yes with hindsight all these “issues” could be caught in testing but how many testers and in how many situations, lenses, settings etc do you want tested for your free upgrade? Firmware is definitely becoming a four letter word.
“What many of you are not understanding is that ‘effective aperture’–the loss of light due to high magnification–does not mean the physical aperture is stopping down. Please read my post on Fred Miranda for an explanation:”
Wrong wrong wrong. What you are not understanding is that for a macro lens that focuses right up to infinity needs to lower its focal length to get the magnification. A 100mm macro lens is 100mm only at infinity or close to it. It’s more like ~60mm at MFD. That’s why the aperture size changes to keep it a constant f/2.8 physically.
Loss of light is another issue. Even though the aperture is f/2.8 in size, you might not get that amount of light hitting the sensor. The math behind this is something like: effective aperture = current aperture x (magnification +1)
This is not what we’re talking about here. The MP-E doesnt focus to infinity so it’s focal length stays at 65mm all the time even if magnification changes, in theory. All the MP-E does is add air between the lens elements and the sensor increasing the magnification which affects the effective aperture.
Well, not exactly. New macro lenses with internal focus will have a shorter focal length at close focus, but the old ones (and some short ones, like the EF 50mm 2.5) focus by moving all the lenses from the focal plane. These will keep their focal length from infinty to 1:1.
No. Not all macro lenses change focal length as a function of focus distance. Rather, it is the internal focus design (regardless of macro capability) that determines whether a lens changes focal length upon turning the focusing ring.
Furthermore, I am well aware of the formula N[eff] = N (1+M). I posted it in the FM thread. And it has NOTHING to do with changing focal length or internal focus lenses or even the size of the entrance pupil. None of these appear in the formula. What the effective aperture formula tells you is that the true light-gathering ability (assuming ideal, 100% transmission) is magnification-dependent. The relative f-number (at infinity) doesn’t change even if you are not focused at infinity. It doesn’t change even if your focal length changes. A lens at f/2.8 shooting at 1:1 magnification will yield an effective aperture of f/5.6, two stops less light-gathering ability.
For an internal focus lens at a fixed f-number, say f/4, changing focus will also change the entrance pupil diameter because N = f/D, where f is the focal length and D is the entrance pupil diameter. That is why the pupil appears to change size, because the focal length is changing and N is fixed. Again, this has no relationship to the effective f-number.
After the statement
“A lens at f/2.8 shooting at 1:1 magnification will yield an effective aperture of f/5.6, two stops less light-gathering ability,”
add the following:
“Even though the effective aperture is f/5.6, that doesn’t mean the aperture itself has stopped down to the relative f-number f/5.6. Effective f-number is a calculated value, not a physical ratio of focal length to entrance pupil diameter.”
All lenses change focal length when they are not focused on infinity, that is an optical fact. Indeed a focal length can only be quoted for any lens as the distance behind it that parallel light rays come to a focal point, rays can only be parallel when coming from infinity, if they are not coming from infinity then the focal point can’t be where it is when they are.
The effect of focal length shortening can be mitigated by lens extension, either internal, as on some expensive lenses, or as on many cheaper lenses, by extending the front, primary optic, away from the film/sensor plane. The film/sensor plane is not where the focal point is.
Some lenses are better than others at achieving this, the latest infamous example is the Nikon (sorry for swearing) 70-200 f2.8 VR MkII, at closest focus distance the 200mm becomes a 128mm! These figures are easily worked out by magnification ratios and subject distances.
Now apparent and effective apertures are not “adjusted” as focus distance changes, f8 at infinity is not f8 at any other distance, but the absolute size of the iris opening stays the same where ever you focus. The focus group changes the apparent size of the iris opening, but this is just the effect of looking at a hole through lenses that move, it looks like it changes but it doesn’t.
None of this has anything to do with the effects being reported about some lenses on the 5D MkII in some modes. The jittering of the iris clearly seen in the videos is not normal lens behavior. If it was, all lenses on all bodies would do it.
It is a bug.
In the FWIW category, I can confirm that this phenomenon is present in my 5DII/2.04 with a Tokina 100mm f2.8 macro lens. Definitely not internal focusing…
it might not be a bug, macro lenses change aperture with focus because the extreme focus change actually changes the length of the lens. since an F stop is calculated by dividing the physical opening size into the focal length (which has increased dramatically with close focus) then we can expect a change in the aperture displayed.
the early 50mm micro nikkors used to correct for this by opening up the aperture with focus change
The wrong point here is that most people on this topic was talking about a complete different thing and didn’t understand the reports (we encourage to read the original one again, and check the updated information at the blog)
We are reporting an “iris jitter” issue, an abnormal behavior of the iris while changing focus in some lenses (in the full manual movie mode), NOT a variation of the aperture (real or non real value) while focusing to macro or something like that.
These video tests are very clear: http://5dmark2.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/malfunction-in-firmware-2-0-4-update/
People should see them and read the reports carefully to understand what the issue is really about.
This is is a firmware issue, not a lens issue. And it also affects some non-Macro lenses (Canon and 3rd party ones)
As we wrote in our last blog post, Canon seems to be aware of this issue now.