Coming in 2009
I’ve posted before that I had information that the xxD line of cameras would take a bigger step forward than the 50D did over the 40D.
The 60D will still be an APS-C camera, but we could see DIGIC V introduced with it.
I have no specs outside of wishlists, but information about the next incarnation should start coming soon.
cr
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135 Comments
It will be the features that count, there are plenty of MP. I’m sure it will have some sort of Video Mode, I’d like to see focus bracketing, and more sensitive autofocus for starters.
how about more than 9 AF points? That’s the only thing that will convince me to grab a xxD/7D over saving for a 1D/1Ds body.
7D sound better than 60D. I hope the DigicV will come with it. If it will be added to the xD and not the xxD that it will get 11 AF-Points for sure.
i) Improved sensor dynamic range at low ISO
ii) Exposure bracketing options of 5 and 7 shots
iii) More AF points, hopefully in the ballpark of 20
I don’t think you are going to convince the bean counters in Canon to give you better AF in the xxD line if your comeback to their refusal is, “F— you! I’ll just save for a 1Ds, then! That’ll show you!”
Let’s push it :
The Top Ten Wish List for 50d replacement
1) Bigger sensor, 1.5 crop instead of 1.6 thus giving more space to pixels (then less noise). 50-6400 iso is a must.
2) Uprated AF, with more AF Points, and AF micro adjustments
3) Chromatic aberration correction, better quality noise reduction
4) New battery with more stamina and more infos about current consumption of the energy
5) GPS chip inside body to enrich EXIF infos
6) Larger screen with Better thumbnails rendering and less reflections
7) Better weather sealing overall
8) Focus bracketing and other bracketing improvements (9 shots ?)
9) Full HD video @ 60fps, with working AF
10) LAst but not least, a new DIGIC V with more features (like NIKON), and 10 fps in high speed mode shooting……
What you guys think ?
I never felt the need for more than 9 AF points in my 20D. In fact, I mostly shoot with only the center AF point active.
1) ~21megapixel (crop 1,3 would be nice)
2) ISO 50-12800
3) 1080p with 50/30/24fps
4) DIGIC V
5) no internal flash please
6) GPS
7) min. 11 AF-Points
8) a little bigger body
9) new battery
10) microphone port
I think you need to save for the 1d MK IV.
Buy a 5D MK II, or wait for the 1D MK IV. The XXD series is not going to change to a different size sensor, or a bigger size. Lets hope they don’t go to the $100 battery with internal chip. Why would anyone want a different battery? I’ve taken 1000 shots with one charge using my 40D and the BP-511A.
Definitely. But that’s a tall order for a 1299 camera. I’m hoping for a 7D with 1.3x cropped sensor.
Sure..$1,000 more ? Still want it ?
I’d expect 60D to be a fairly small upgrade from 50D, particulary if it comes out in 2009. The 50D wa a pretty significant upgrade to 40D with 50% more pixels, new sensor (obviously), Live View with contrast AF, new processor and AF micro adjustments.
60D wil likely have the same processor (Digic IV) and sensor, but with tweaks to sensor and processing like the 500D. The “big news” will be video of course, again like 500D. The only hardware changes I would dare hope for (but not expext) would be a twist and swivel LCD and possibly a new AF-sensor.
there are some things i would like to see like more auto focus points but i dont expect that to happen, especially because it didnt happen on the new 5D line.
a higher dynamic range is probable but i dont think will be a big improvement.
something i would really love to see Canon try out is image stabilization (in camera) this would help keep the price of the lenses down while Canon improves on the quality of glass.
lol seriously.
I don’t think the 50D was any more than a tweaked 40D.
Canon’s problem is that the 450/500D now has a good 9-point AF and Nikon has the D300/400 with a much higher count (although certainly not better than the 50D, it sounds like it is).
A revised AF, new battery grip (the current one ain’t great IMO and lags heavily behind the superb camera body)and some true usability tweaks would go a long way to showing the market some real progress. 1.3x crop would be terrific but a MAJOR surprise.
“1) Bigger sensor, 1.5 crop instead of 1.6 thus giving more space to pixels (then less noise). 50-6400 iso is a must.”
Will never happen due to EF-S lenses being made for 1.6 crop.
Canon has also stated that 1.3 is going to die off.
(which in my personal opinion is too bad…. 1.3 is a MUCH better format than 1.6, I hate 1.6)
In body IS. hopefully Nikon jumps the gun and forces Canon to go that route. I don’t see Canon doing it without alot of sales pressure.
Improved dynamic range
Improved hight ISO
Improved exposure bracketing
NO MORE MEGAPIX
I would say 14.2 or more likely 16.1 megapixels and not the 15.1 50D has now. And ISO pushing up to 25,600 just for PR reasons, only usable at 12,800. About 1 1/2 full stops on noise improvement from the 50D and 40D. Dynamic range up stop. They probly have to redo their A/D conversion pipeline to match Nikons. And Kodak’s ‘panchromatic pixel’ will be an improvement from the Bayer pattern currently used. Black Silicon won’t be around for a few more years so a 1.3 crop factor would be a good step up from 1.6 or use a 1.5 or 1.4 crop factor.
I dont really want more than 12MP… I have a 40D and i really dont know what to ask for to be willing to change it… Video seems nice but i dont have really good lenses and wouldnt use it too much….
I wouldnt mind it going to 1.3 crop… actually i would love it! that way i would get a 24-105 that instant!
Give me highly improved image qualiy and i am sold!
I don’t think there will be a 7D. Canon has settled into a xxxD (amature), xxD (enthusiast), xD (pro) divisions for DSLRs. It makes sense.
What people seem to be asking for is a second enthusiast camera (maybe a xxDs) that would be full frame and maybe $500 more, but would be not up to pro standards like as is the entire xD line – so it would in the same body with pop-up flash and offer the same MP/features as the xxD.
I think that would be a smart move for Canon, but I’m not going to hold my breath.
I would not be surprised to see an eventual Micro Four Thirds camera from Canon some day (a xxxxD perhaps with an EF-m lens line and EF adapter for it). My guess is they are waiting to see if it catches on. I think it will, especially given the attention to HD video shooting that has leaped ahead of the DSLRs in their first attempt.
just curious, why is focus bracketing good/ useful? I know CS4 can merger depth of field, I do it with my TS-E lens to get some wacked out stuff, and I have used it before for macro to increase depth of field. Is this the use for that? Personally I am more than happy to (in fact I prefer to manually focus when appropriate, for example while on a tripod). I more than understand the desire for a better AF system. In fact, if the 60D/whatever has one I’ll probably buy it as a backup/ body for telephoto reach (daytime).
I think that the 5D partially fits into this xxDs gap. It is halfway a pro and halfway an advanced amateur camera. I would however greatly welcome a low (not more than 15) megapixel FF SLR with decent AF and motor drive. It would be a smart move, especially given the massive success of the D700. Thus Canon would have a semi-Pro/advanced amateur line that mirrored the 1D/1Ds flagship divisions. One for speed and ISO performance, and one with high resolution. Nikon will most likely go similarly when the introduce the D3x sensor in a D700 body, presumably the D700x.
agreed. Also the 1.6 to 1.5 difference in area is rather minimal. probably like a 1/3 stop ISO improvement.
What is everyone’s bizarre fascination with 1.3 crop sensors? The market requires standardization for sensor formats and APS-H doesn’t fit the established model. Alienating EF-S lens users in a consumer-grade camera line is complete lunacy.
I’m usually not one for internet tirades, but I do think I’ve had enough. Nikon did it right: if you own a DX lens, you can still use it on FX bodies (albeit ‘cropped,’ to use the term appropriately). Canon shot itself in the foot with its EF-S lens design and now the consumer-grade camera lines can only go full-frame at the expense of its targeted market. The consequences of doing so are too devastating unless some alternative can be developed in the future (mirrorless bodies like the Panny G1 might nullify the problem).
If you are a member of the horde currently frothing at the mouth about how Canon should move the xxD line to 1.3 or full-frame: you may continue your pipe dreaming so long as you are fully aware that, despite what you want and what the various photography forums spew forth every day, your claims are illogical and, as such, unlikely to ever come true.
yeah, you pretty much just asked for higher order camera than the XXD line-up is meant to be. They’re not going to be a non 1.6x camera because then they loose EF-S compatability.
actually, having used both the D300 and 40D, the D300 AF is WAY ahead in terms of AF tracking. in terms of single point they are equal. sorry 1.3x can’t happen because then you loos EF-S compatibility. they really need more points and a better spread pattern. The football shape just isn’t that great.
improved AF
agreed
Nikon’s better dynamic range isn’t because of their A/D conversion, its because of the larger photosites on their sensors.
Zac,
I don’t think the 5D fits into the xxDs gap. It’s built to tougher pro standards, weather-resistant body, tougher shutter mechanism, etc. Traditionally what has always defined a pro camera is its toughness and build quality, and you can see that difference going all the way back to the F1.
A xxDs would allow the cheaper build quality of the likes of the 50D but add a full frame sensor, so you could buy a 60D for $1500 or a 60Ds for $2000, and if you are a pro you’re going to spring for the tougher camera like the 5DmkII and spend another grand.
DN, haha, this is, after-all, a rumor site. So vain specualtion is par for the course. I do agree 1.3 APS-H sensors are gonners. Personnaly I like a FF or a 1.6 depending on what I’m shooting, kinda like having a teleconverter with no lens.
I don’t think at this point there is a valid reason Canon could not put a FF sensor in a xxD body and call it xxDs just as they have split up the xD line into three different bodies (1DmkIII, 1DsmkIII, and 5DmkII) and the xxxD line into what, four bodies now?
In order for Canon to tempt me to upgrade, they’ll need to include the above features in the 50D replacement.
That will be a dream come true.
But as long as Nikon and Panasonic do not make the first move, I won’t expect any response from Canon in the stabilization department.
Splitting the line is a possibility, but we have to ask what an xxDs line would feature other than just a FF sensor. If it’s too rich in features not shared with the contemporary xxD, then it risks stepping on the 5D’s toes.
The market needs to be stratified in very clear, demarcated groups if Canon wants to make a reasonable amount of money from regular update cycles. The problem with the xxD line has always been defining itself as better than the xxxD line, but simply eating up territory from the next echelon up doesn’t solve the problem. It could be that the xxD line itself has become redundant: the only features that separate it from each corresponding rebel is usually build quality and shutter speed. Other than that, the ‘trickle down’ of technology has made the differences negligible.
Perhaps the better solution is to merge the xxD line with the xxxD line and make xxxDs cameras with better build and faster shutter speed at a two or three hundred dollar premium (it’s close enough to this model already). This would open up a range of possibilities for Canon to pursue a $2,000 version of the 5D, thus stratifying the market into something like a $1,000 consumer/prosumer line, a $2,000 FF line, and then the professional xD’s.
Why not just add two choices to the xxD line and split it, 1.6 or an FF for a bit more? This would stop all the whining about enthusiasts not being able to afford a FF body for their lenses and give Canon a leg up on Nikon without cutting into their pro line.
I think the three lines are quite well defined by price point matching interest level. The xxxD line at $800-900 is mostly plastic, and is aimed at the point and shoot crowd who want some lens options and a bit of manual control. The xxD at $1500 certainly offers a better build, feature set and accesories than the Rebel but doesn’t give you the toughness of the pro line – it’s targeted at andvanced amatures who don’t want to be seen with a Rebel and EF-S lens in hand. Then you jump to $2700, $4500 to $8000 for the pro line for those who are making their living and expect pro level tools and quality – frankly I think $2700 is a bargain for any pro and I dont see why Canon would make a pro camera at a lower price point.
Where I see price point and interest level room is between xxD and XD. It makes no sense to me to offer pros a dumbed down 5D for less. It makes more sense to offer a FF sensor at the xxD level.
I certainly would not favor less choices by merging lines.
I don’t use focus bracketing, but it seems like a nice idea. Imagine taking a landscape photo; rather than sacrificing image quality by using small apertures, you can bracket the focus and get optimal sharpness. In other situations, I’m sure it also helps as you can have faster shutter speeds (larger apertures).
Wish-list:
*same or less MP for improved high ISO (one can dream)
*new, improved micro-lensing technology again for better high ISO and less vignetting
*full environmental sealing
*in-body IS (I spent a lot of money on IS lenses but I don’t care, I still have some primes that could use it)
What I don’t care about:
*GPS – useless gadget that will just unnecessarily ass to the price
*MP3 player – I can just see this one coming…
*Any kind of movie mode
with the way things are going at the moment, sorry to say but Canon seems to be playing catch up with its competitors.
I’ll tell you what would be killer is to coat the microlenses with the same coating they are using in the new blue ring ‘L’ lenses. It will never happen though.
Ok, Ok, I fell for it. Shoot me.
I am thinking that it is not the xD class, but the 1D class and the xD class where x = 2-9. I think it will be the 7D and will have a 1.6 sensor, movie (barf), a Digic V, improved AF, and finally a movable LCD which may turn out to be OLED.
What is everyone’s bizarre fascination with 1.6 crop or full frame sensors? I agree with other posts here that 1.3 crop would be ideal for a prosumer level camera. Canon would get a sligtly bigger sensor than the competition which they could use for better sensitivity or higher pixel count or a mix of the two.
It would also differentiate better between the xxxD cameras without Canon having to hold beck on features like they do now (like no AF micro adjustments on the 500D). 1.3 crop would also make sense for lenses, you wouldn’t need quite the extreme quality that a full frame sensor does.
Canon will also have to move the 1D to full frame to compete with the D3 so a new 1.3 ccrop xxD wouldn’t be a direct competitor to the 1D-series.
I can’t compatibility with EFs lenses as a problem, there aren’t any guarantees that xxD will stay 1.6 crop forever and with some improvements to the xxxD like 5 fps and xxD AF module that basically doesn’t cost anything Canon could easily make a camera that would satisfy most EFs users as good enough.
1) ~21megapixel (crop 1,3 would be nice)
> Completely unuseful
2) ISO 50-12800
> Yes !
3) 1080p with 50/30/24fps
> Yes !
4) DIGIC V
> Yes !
5) no internal flash please
> No way ! KEEP the flash but improve it
6) GPS
> Yes
7) min. 11 AF-Points
> Yes
8) a little bigger body
> No way. It is big enough (too big actually for most hands). Same size or smaller.
9) new battery
10) microphone port
bigger sensor -> larger pixels & better DR + wider FL equivalents
Any Canon Spring Rebates coming?
Don’t need movie mode either!!!!!! Thats why their are camcorders!!!!!
Yeah when are the rebates coming???? need to spend 6 bills and want to save.
I have a slightly more reasonable hope for the 60D:
– More bracketing shots (up to 9). HDR is becoming quite popular, and Canon will start to lose out to similar priced Nikon’s that can do this. It’s already even technically possible, they just have to allow it in their software.
– Digic V would be cool. And certainly help to separate this model from the new Rebel.
– I don’t need higher ISO levels, but maybe the new processor could bring better quality at the current levels.
– It will have a movie mode. No question about that. I just want it to have normal, standard fps.
– It will have higher megapixels. I’m guessing a minimal bump of up to 17-point-something, but wouldn’t be surprised to see it match the 5DM2.
– An updated AF system.
– GPS would be a cool nice-to-have, but not a necessity. I’d actually expect this in the next rebel before we see it built into any other DSLR, as that’s the best target demographic for such a thing. But they could make it easy for an affordable GPS add on to be used.
I am laughing at people asking for a Digic V. They don’t even know what Digic V’s perfomance will be, or if Digic4 is used at more than 25% capacity.
50D already includes the same “Digic 4” as in the 5DmkII, that does not make the 50D any better.
What about in-camera IS? I’m relatively new to this business, but I’d like to see this more than anything. What’s the deal with this…?
Cheers
– One step better ISO performance
– More AF points (21+)
– NO MORE MEGAPIX please
Just fine-tune the AA filter of the 50D for better detail/sharpness – or get rid of it altogether.
Canon has invested a lot in stabilized lenses so they say that’s better. They also said that you can’t have IS in the body for full frame cameras and Sony proved that they lied with the A-900. Anyway, it’s a feature a lot of Canon users want for the non-stabilized lenses, but don’t expect it anytime soon.
yeah, It makes sense for using the lens at the sharpest aperture, and then focus blending. But the only real application for that is landscape, and if you are doing that you are focused at infinity 95% of the time, so you only need to alter focus nearer to the camera, rather than actually bracketing. I’m not going to whine here and say that since I don’t need it its not good and I won’t buy a camera with it or something like that, but personally I think those kind of focus adjustments for merging should be done manually. If its dome automatically how much will it bracket by? how will that be set? It would be very possible to move focus so far that the images do not properly blend, or so little that it is useless. I don’t really know, maybe if I knew more about its implementation (the concerns I just raised) I would be more supportive of this feature, but at the moment it just seems unnecessary
why would you think that they would match the 5d mkII megapixels with a 60D? the XXD has always been sort of a baby 1D, and the 5D mk X a baby 1Ds. Also if they put that many pixels on a sensor that size, anyone who needs any sort of noise performance at all would realize canon was off their nut and switch to nikon, and frankly, if they did that with the mkIV I’d be one of the first to go.
The “what’s next?” is an interesting dilemma.
Personally, I’ve been looking with some interest at the movie modes, as it has some utility for my application (underwater). However, it would really need to be a pretty good system – – effectively, the equivalent of conventional video, in terms of auto-exposure, auto-focus, etc. Clip duration isn’t really a problem at all.
Currently, I’m still considering the 5Dmk2, although I’m still concerned about the LL mortality problems in Antarctica, my impression of its video system is that it seems fairly weak, and its focus system simply is unsuitable for sports & BIF. As such, the xxD series would have to have particular strength in autofocus performance for sports, BIF, etc…especially if I’m going to consider it for the lower-contrast underwater world.
For other features, I expect to see Geotagging capabilities in one form or another, now that Apple has added it to iPhoto … simply put, it fits the market demographic. I also expect to be saddled with an “Advanced” (and expensive) battery. In neither case does this mean that I feel too strongly about these features, either for/against … I merely expect to see them – call it a hunch, but IMO its more just a matter of “when”, not “if”.
-hh
In what way is a 5D Mark II a tougher or more pro camera than a 50D?
– It is only partially weather resistant – just like the 50D
– The 5D Mark II is a much slower camera in term of FPS, shutter lag and mirror blackout times
– slower AF compared to 50D
David,
What do you think a dumbed down 5D Mark II would look like?
IMO, the 5D Mark II is already a dumbed down FF camera, there isn’t much more to dumb down in it.
I never said I thought they _would_, I said I thought they’d go up a bit, to 17. I merely said that I wouldn’t be _surprised_ if they went as high as the 5DM2.
Personally, assuming the stay with 1.6 crop, I’d be happy with them staying at the current mp count. More than anything, I want them to allow better bracketing options. Especially since it’ll cost them nothing really, and will help separate this camera from the Rebel lineup for a fast growing market segment (HDR photographers) without having to up the mp count or go to full frame, which would encroach greatly on the 5D line.
Sorry, misinterpreted. Personally I suspect that they will keep the same resolution, as they did in the 20D -> 30D upgrade cycle. I think the engineering staff are going to smack the marketing department in the head if they insist on more resolution, instead of improving the other aspects of the sensor (ISO performance, and dynamic range). I hope they finally realize that 15 is enough.
I agree with refining the AA filter, and making auto high ISO correction not turn people’s JPEGs into a pile of mush. Do keep in mind that they can’t remove the AA filters entirely because otherwise you would end up with that weird effect with very small patterns the name of which permanently escapes it.
Np. Also, Canon took a huge jump, 5mp, from 40-50D. So hopefully that was enough. I heard somewhere that it takes about 25-30mp in a full frame camera to finally equal about what you can get with film. If that’s true, I suspect that both the full frames and crops will still slowly increase over the next few years. I also suspect we’re only a few generations away from all Canon DSLR’s being full frame.
this is the 60D page. 60D, as is the 50D’s updated model.
I do hope so, but only for the 1Ds / 5D type cameras. The resolution of film depends a lot on the film used. For example, a color negative film, particularly a consumer one, like kodak gold ASA 400, will only yield around 6 or eight megapixels equivalent. The resolution decreases with sensitivity since the grain size increases. so for a film like Provia 100F, which I shot until 2/21/2008, will yield much more resolution, about 20 MP, lower ASA films, like Velvia 50, will yield in the 25-30 MP range. But you have to use a really good scanner to get that kind of resolution. You can also overscan film, to the point where you start resolving the individual grains with the scan, once you start doing that you’re over the film’s resolution. Some people claim to get ridiculous resolutions out of film scans because they do that without realizing it. Sorry for the lecture.
I personally disagree with all canon SLRs going FF, It just doesn’t make sense considering how cheap it is to produce APS-C sensors and bodies. It would also render EF-S lenses useless, which would annoy people near the same order of magnitude as discontinuing FF, and not supporting EF mount anymore. I do think there will be a lot more FF cameras in Canon’s line-up in the future. I suspect four. the 1D and 1Ds, the 5D mk whatever, and something like a 5D thats more of a D700 analog.
They never said it couldn’t be done. What they say is that in Lens stabilizers are more effective. I have found this to be generally true for the focal lengths most requiring IS, telephoto and macro (sorry for the mis-speak, I realize macro isn’t a focal length, I just can’t think of a better way to say it). This is because in lens stabilizers correct for that specific focal length, correcting what is in the image circle of the lens. (its something vaguely similar to shift, but internal) So the internal movements of the lens will overcome your movements by taking the image seen by the lens (keep in mind the bi-convex element that does this is typically about in the middle of the lens , just after the objective collects the light, but before it is finally focused by the elements following it). In body stabilizers move the sensor within the image circle. This means that they can correct a certain distance of movement with the sensor on the back end. However, lens shake depends on the focal length, so if lens A is 50mm long and lens B is 500mm long,(both non-stabilized, just for example) and the shake the same amount during an exposure, and assuming the shake causes the lens A’s image to move by 70 micrometers, or roughly 10 pixels, lens B’s image will move 700 micrometers, or about 100 pixels. (this is why lens shake is worse in telephotos. So, if there is an in-body in the camera used for exposures with both lenses A and B, and it can move 350 micrometers (about 5 pixels [remember this is a hypothetical example]) lens A is completely corrected, while lens B, our 500mm still has a shake of 50 pixels, which should stop you from ever letting your client see that one. However, an in lens stabilizer would not have had that problem.
Some manufacturers have claimed amazing amounts of stabilization from ion body stabilizers, upwards of five stops. I do not question this in the least. The thing is, that’s probably for the widest lens made for that outfit. With in-body stabilizers the amount of stabilization varies inversely with the focal length, unlike in-lens stabilization. A small problem with in body stabilizers is that, since they move within the image circle cast by the lens, they will run into the extreme edges while stabilizing. the extreme edges of the image circles of ultrawides tend to be dark and full of chromatic aberration, so this would result in a slightly lower quality image than if the exposure did not rely on the stabilization. However, it does provide stabilization for ultra-wides, which is not yet supported by in lens stabilizers due to the optical challenges there within. while stabilization is not amazingly useful for ultrawides I for one would really like to handhold a 14mm or 16mm lens around a second or second and a half exposure, I think it would open up some more creative possibilities.
Personally, I would like to see both in body and in lens stabilizers, and the in body stabilizer would automatically de-activate when the camera realized the lens was self stabilized. It is possible, but I don’t expect it.
Um, what was I thinking?
The pop-up flash on the 50D is definately not an indication of the camera’s target market. Any pro would surely know water or dust would never make it through the cracks in the top of the camera around the flash. Never could figure out why my 24-70L blocks the light from the pop-up flash because that L on the lens doesn’t really mean “pro” espcially with those awesome pro EF-S lenses designed to work on the 50D and not the 5D, 1DmkII or 1DsMkII.
And what was Canon thinking by not putting that awesome pro oriented pop-up flash on the lowely 5DmkII??? Must be a conspiracy to make all the pros buy the 5DmkIII when it comes out with the pop-up flash, right? Or maybe a firmware update will add it?
And God knows how silly all those pros must feel for buying the $4500 1DmkII to get 10 fps when they could have gotten a 50D for only $1500. Yep, no doubt sports shooting pros are all over that 50D.
Of course what pro would not feel complete without enough focus points in the viewfinder? And hey, 100,000 shutter cycles on the 50D is darn close to the 5DmkII’s 150,000 shutter cycle rating, that’s what? Only 50% more? But we all know amatures take as many photos as working pros right? So it’d be rather silly to equate 50% more shutter cycles as being TOUGHER! So you must be right. The 50D is just as tough and built for pros too! I spent all that extra money for nothing. lol
I dont know how the 5DmkII is dumbed down. It just won Camera of Year so it can’t be that dumb.
My suggestion is to put a 15 MP FF sensor option in a cheaper body like the 50D.
What are you thinking about “9D”?
Maybe Canon is changing the names to 1D 3D 5D 7D and 9D. I think Canon will bring a 3D and a 7D in the next months/years. And the Rebel-line will be replaced by G-cameras.
-> and useless legacy EF-S lenses
i love that you know the *exact* date you stopped shooting provia
Yeah what’s the big deal with GPS? And the day they put an MP3 player in my XDs body is they day I retire (freekin gimmicks, that’s what iPhones are for).
What would be nice is built in WIFI.
That would make too much sense, and sound cooler too, but unfortunately it seems Canon has opted for xD, xxD, xxxD divisions according to target market. I doubt it will change anytime soon. Maybe after they get to the 90D and run out of xxD 10 increment numbers? Or will they just go with 90DmkII…?
You left out MP3 player, 4G phone, navigation and netbook!
Yeah, you don’t need interchangeable lenses either because that’s why they have superzoom point and shoot cameras!!!!
In Camera IS would be cool if they could do it without sacrificing pixels or image quality in any way. Otherwise I’ll stick with optical IS.
You may be right. It might be more that the APS-C sensors and bodies eventually end up creating a new line of ‘cheap’ DSLR, consistently in the $300-600 range. But there’s no doubt that pretty soon, camera makers are going to have to start pushing something other than megapixels and high ISO numbers in the DSLRs.
Of course, my full frame statement was meant to be 3-5 years from now, or maybe a bit longer. Eventually in electronics, everything gets cheaper to make, and full frames will become cheaper. Plus for Canon, if it means people buying new lenses, they’ll take it. Or heck, maybe they’ll release an attachment to use a crop lens on a full frame body safely, but with the limitations.
the rebel line is extraordinarily popular, so replacing it doesn’t make much sense as far as i can see. the G line also doesn’t require subsequent lens purchases.
it corresponds exactly to several other important events.
it was supposed to say, me, I have no idea what I was doing while typing that response…
order of magnitude fail: this ‘(about 5 pixels [remember this is a hypothetical example])’ should say this ‘(about 50 pixels [remember this is a hypothetical example])’
Have you guys considered the need for a d700 type camera in canon’s lineup? Is, a FF camera geared to speed rather than resolution. I expect to see oolne shortly following the FF 1d. MkIV.
If its got the dedicated print button im getting it :)
Such a POSH comment, just to show up you got a 1DmkII, the 24-70L and consider you as a pro…
Come on David ! You are ridiculous.
And if you really ask… Yes, to take your vacations picture, you really spent all the extra money for nothing (except being able to write such a lame comment. But it seems to me a really expensive price just to show up)
I just cannot imagine the 7d at this point. if its going to have less MP and no video then just buy a 5d mk I! if its going to have integrated body grip, faster shooting and more fps then we would most likely talk about a 1d mark iV…..
then how they are going to introduce it?
I prefer that canon keep the current lineup because “it make since” and not confuse us with new models that just look as good as other models. Canon should focus more on their existing line. the 500d is a joke by all means. it became a toy for kids who want to bark about how many pixels they have. look at 90d, when i handheld it the other day it felt better than my 5d mark II!! ok maybe not the same quality but the point is, it felt like a tool not a toy. canon should of introduced a 500d with 12mp and 4.5 fps, add video, and better weather sealing. the 2000d should of came latter with 12mp 3.5fps, no video and no weather sealing. that would of made 2 excellent products that will appeal to everybody and does not cost as much. same thing should of happened to 50d. heck, even the 5d mark II for that matter. IT works well, and all my work pictures looks great and all… but it does not have the wow, i can do it all attitude you have on nikoners.
The Nikon D700 has a pop-up flash and is weather-sealed. The two are not mutually exclusive.
You lost me after that.
lol, Alex. What is rediculous is the notion the Rebel & 50D are pro targeted cameras.
Dude I bought my first SLR in 1975, I bought one of the first AE-1 cameras the first week they were out. I started making money with my camera in 1982 and I still do today. I have several camreas, which does not make me a pro, but the fact I depend on my cameras for my income does. I would never trust my career to a 50D or a Rebel, though I think they are amazing cameras for the markets they are intended.
I’ve never used the D700, but there’s weather sealing and then there’s weather sealing. I wouldn’t trust a suposed water proof top from a pop-up flash or even if that is what Nikon means by weather resistence. Why Nikon put a pop-up flash on a $3000 body under their excellent D3x is a mystery as to what Nikon is thinking and who their target market is with that, so I dont know if Nikon is marketing the D700 as a “pro” camera or maybe a pro backup camera with primary apeal to the enthusiats.
It’s at the price point of a 5DmkII right?
OK, I see your point now: the real effectiveness of the weather sealing of a camera with a pop-up flash is irrelevant, it is only the theoretical effectiveness of the weather sealing–which is whatever you declare it to be–that matters.
There’s just no arguing with that…so I won’t bother.
Ted, there’s 4 wheel drive on a Subaru Outback and 4 wheel on a Jeep CJ7, doesn’t mean they can do the same off-road things not that one should expect an Outback to hold as long for regular off-road use. Same is true of advertised wather sealing on cameras.
I have a 50D I take with me at times because I like how it turns my 400 2.8 into a 640 2.8, but I wish it were tougher and built like my 1Ds’s. I would dont consider it a camera built for pros and I use it accordingly.
But hey, if anyone wants to take their D700 or 50D out for a shoot in the rain because they are “weather sealed” have at it – make a believer out of me.
I’ve had plenty of cameras go down over the years. I used to own a fleet of Nikon F3’s because two of them were being repaired at any given time. Depending on my cameras for my income means being realistic about my tools and not falling for the marketing hype of focus points and megapixels or how much real world weather resistence there is supposed to be.
i would lke to see a Virtual Horizon Graphics Indicator while looking through the viewfinder or on LCD
That is one useful aspect of having focus point indicators on the screen, I use them to judge horizon level.
rofl
yeah. technically its $300 over, but nikon has had it on $300 rebate since the 5D mkII was in stores
Oh, by the way, nikon pop-up flashes work as commander flashes for their speedlights, making them actually useful.
Zac, do you mean the SU-800 Commander Unit?
NO. that will also perform that function, and is of course required on D3 and D3x, but the pop-up of the D90 D300 and D700 will command an off camera flash in the same way that the ST-E2 will for Canon. And its quite effective, I’ve seen my friends D300 with his SB 800.
Oh, and in case you were wondering the D300 and D700 are fully sealed, including the pop-up flash, thats actually part of why they are as expensive as they were on introduction (compared to 50D) it’s just difficult to seal, but by no means impossible, and it just translates to increased manufacturing cost, rather than ineffectualness. And also, the 51 point AF is vastly superior to Canon’s 9 point for motion tracking. Personal experience with the D300, (I had to try it), and a 40D confirms that.
From what I’ve seen it’s hard to compare the D700 with the Canon line, it’s price point is the 5DmkII as you said, and it’s FF, but only 12.1 MP and no video. If I were a Nikon shooter I’d buy D3x and D3’s. Nice cameras.
Heck, who needs cameras? That’s why *there* are oil paints and canvas!!!!!
Any flash on your camera can slave other flashes if they are slavable. I prefered radio slaves in the studio and I never do studio flash on auto with speedlights so slaving speedlights is not something I would do. Now I use Photoflex Starlight QL 1000 watt lights with softboxes anyway, no flash, just good solid light and they work with video too.
I find the whole focus point number a non-issue. It’s like how many angels can you fit on the head of a pin? I dont care. I’ve never missed a shot because my camera didnt have enough focus points.
None of these cameras are water proof. For $3000 it should have some weather resistence and the D700 does, but according to Nikon it’s not as good as the D3/D3x, and I suspect the popup flash is part of the reason. Of course, you need a weather sealed LENS too for it to really matter.
exactly! I’m going back to pin hole cameras though because I can’t draw or paint.
yeah I agree, I just wish they’d lose the whole rebel name thing.
I’d not be surprised if Canon eventually came out with a faux DSLR micro four thirds line like Panasonic and Olympus.
Thank you for the irrelevant lecture complete with inaccurate data on lighting. Only a master flash on a Canon camera, 580 EX, EXII and 550EX can slave other off camera flashes, if they are slaveable. A Nikon pop up flash (there is nothing in the hot shoe) on a D90, D300, D700 can make one of their off camera flashes slave to it. that makes pop-ups useful on those cameras because its similar to having an inbuilt ST-E2 (for equating to Canon)
When you are shooting sports with your 50D, what is your in sharp focus %?
I recommend that you rent a D300 and a lens and shoot a side by side with your 50D, sports of course, there is nothing wrong with the single point on the XXD cameras.
You are correct in that the shear number of points doesn’t make much of a difference, however, having a good spread (area) with points close enough to each other for the camera to keep tracking the subject across the frame requires a goodly number of points.
I never said that they were as well sealed as the D3/x but they survive rain perfectly unscathed. (my personal suspicion is that the D3 and D3x, along with the mkIII’s can survive a brief dunk, or a hurricane, depending on what one encounters. The deal with the 50D is that it has partial sealing around critical and vulnerable components.
All weather sealed bodies need to be attached to a weather sealed lens for the sealing to work. This is kinda obvious considering the lens mount is the biggest joint on any camera body, and the manual tells you that in nice bold font, if you didn’t figure that out already.
or if you were a budget shooter you could get a D700 and a battery grip for it, and have the same sensor as the D3, the same AF as the D3, and 8 fps, for $300 instead of $5000.
here’s how the D700 fits in the line-up relative to Canon.
5D mkII is to the 1D mkIII as the D700 is to the D3.
more or less.
excuse me, left off a zero. for $3000, instead of $5000
Zac, you neglected to say your scenario is only true for thru the lens flash metering slaving speedlights together on AUTOMATIC. I have no need for it, and even if I did I’d still rather not have the popup flash on my camera.
I have tried the popup flash on my 50D only to have most of my lenses block part of the light output, my impression is Canon did not give a single thought to people using L lenses with a popup flash, cuz its not a pro feature…nuf said.
I don’t shoot sports often. When I have shot football, track & field, motocross, or fast moving animals, I have not been disapointed and thought “darn if only I had more focus points that shot would be sharper.”
I agree to disagree with your assessment of weather proofing meaning you can shoot in the rain. Good luck with that and don’t say I didn t warn you.
The 50D has better sealing than that line used to have, but as people I know have come back from Glamis with broken 50D’s from the dust/wind/sand I do not believe it is up to pro standards, which was my point all along.
As for weather sealing Canon vs. Nikon, the Nikon Rep I asked said none of their lenses are claimed by Nikon to be “weather sealed” though some do have a rubber protective rim on them and some are more resistant to weather than others, they do not call any of their lenses weather sealed. Canon does assert weather sealing on certain L lenses.
WRONG. You are clearly mistaken as to the Nikon CLS flash system, since its distinct advantage over the Canon wireless flash system is the ability to wirelessly set manual power on off camera flashes. If you don’t believe me google Nikon Creative Lighting System. Furthermore the pop-up can bu used as a trigger only, meaning its light does not have to contribute to the scene, this means that you won’t have that lens shadow problem.
Your Nikon rep is weird. Especially considering that the Pro shooters I know who switched to Nikon for the D3, were specifically assured that the bodies and lenses were every bit equal to Canon’s in terms of weather sealing.
about number of focus points.
do you read? let me say it again.
You are correct in that the shear number of points doesn’t make much of a difference, however, having a good spread (area) with points close enough to each other for the camera to keep tracking the subject across the frame requires a goodly number of points.
not to be confused with more points is better ad inifinitum.
When I have shot football, soccer, and basketball, I have found tracking on 40D to be mediocre at best, it often jumps focus if the subject is not in the exact center of the frame.
I have shot with one of my school’s 10D cameras in the rain. It still works. I’ve had a wave come over the bow of a dingy and land on a 40D with a 70-200, it still works. I think the weather sealing is better than you give it credit for. though I will definitely agree that the XXD cameras are below pro quality build.
The D3 is also more rugged and rated for double the shutter cycles than the D700 so in the long run the extra $2k is well spent, and should the D700 ever crap out on you, you could lose the income from the job too. Is it worth it if you are living off your camera? I dont think so. Sure if it’s a hobby or side job, buy the D700 if that’s your budget, it’s a nice camera.
My take on the lineup:
5DmkII D700
21MP 12.1
3.9 fps 5 fps
HD Vid No vid
9 AF 51 AF
$2,699 $3,199 (both from B&H Photo after rebates)
I also hope the APS-C sensors do not go away. In fact, I’d love to see FF go down to the xxD line as an option and I’d love a 1Dc 21MP APS-C 1.6 in the mix to magnify fast lenses without the light loss of a teleconverter but in the 1D body.
Zac you nailed it on the film question. But I’d have no problem with DSLR’s hitting 6×7 Velvia 50 quality so I’m not in favor of them stopping where they are now.
“or if you were a budget shooter you…”
not implying that for a working full time pro that the D700 should be preferred over the D3 for the reasons which you have correctly elaborated.
why is your take on the line-up nothing more than a list of specs? “5D mkII is to the 1D mkIII as the D700 is to the D3.” remains true. The 5DmkII is like a knocked down Ds and the D700 is like a knock down D3, that should be the basis of comparison, a direct comparison between them is as silly as a direct comparison between a 1D mkIII and D3x.
plus D700 from B&H is $2999 with instant $300 rebate http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/570162-REG/Nikon_25444_D700_SLR_Digital_Camera.html
putting them both at $2699
It would be nice to equal 6×7 Velvia in a 35mm type digital body. when that day comes I will be very satisfied.
I re-read that, and I have to apologize. I did not mean to be so rude. For some reason technical accuracy is obsessing me tonight.
Zac, I dont care if the Nikon speedlights will cook my dinner I still will not use them. I dont like Flash lighting, unless there is no other option. If you have some special need to use multiple speedlights then enjoy your Nikon. I dont have a 40D so I can’t speak to its focus problems, and if I made any money shooting sports and that was my career, which I dont and it isnt, then maybe I’d care about it more. I like the AF in my cameras just fine. I’ve had no problems with the sports/action I have shot.
Anyone can get lucky with a camera and water at times. I’ve held my breath on more than one occasion to find a camera be OK after. But I’ve seen enough Nikons and Canons go dead after rain or sand to know the risks.
Show me a Nikon ad for weather sealed lenses.
Zac,
My point of the specs is that they are not the same. 21MP vs. 12.1MP, video vs. no video. You found a better price on B&H then I did, so they are the same price, and maybe they hold the “spot” in the companies line up, but I’d want one or the other for entirely different reasons and shooting needs, so I have trouble equating them as the way you have. To me it seems Nikon and Canon have market researched different target users at that price point.
hehe, Zac I have thick skin. It’s always interesting to have lively debate now and then.
I think we’re disagreeing with each other while trying to make the same point. let me run it by you.
5D mk II = D700
The 5D mk II is similar to a 1Ds, only not built to the same standards as the 1 series.
the D700 is similar to the D3, only not built ot the same standard.
So the D700 does not directly compare to the 5D mkII, rather they are conjugates of one another, succeeding precisely in the area where the other is weak because it was intended for the exact opposite purpose.
lol epic fail
neglect this “5D mk II = D700”
what I meant to say was “5D mk II does not = D700”
yeah I’d agree with that, Zac.
Yeah, add in 120 fps full HD video with full control and AF and I’m satisfied with that too.
Hey David, Do you have a site I could check out? I’m 90% you’re pro, since you have at least one Ds and 400 2.8, I’m curious to see your stuff.
I think the only reason Nikon had to make DX fit FX bodies is that they don’t currently have a decent, cheap FF standard zoom. They have the 24-120VR which apparently sucks, and they have the amazing but pricey 24-70. Canon on the other hand, have the 28-135IS that’s really cheap and pretty good, as well as the 28-105/3.5-4.5USM. Also, the 24-105L and 24-70 are a lot less than the Nikkor 24-70. Nikon is in a bit of trouble here, so they allow users to put a DX kit lens on their D700 for now, but ultimately, they’ll bring out a less expensive FX standard zoom and DX mode won’t be needed.
Yeah I make 98% of my living the past 25 years with my cameras, still and video. No other income source. The other 2% is Flash programming web stuff. I’m not laying claim to being the best, I know several guys I think are far better photographers then I’ll ever be, but I make my clients happy and that pays my bills. I do a lot of stuff for the legal field that pays well, some good corporate clients doing their catalog shots, training videos, some ads & promotional stuff, the occasional event, and I shoot for myself just because I like to wildlife & scenic. My current site is more of a flash example I did to show a client.
Oh, I still have my first DSLR from back when I was still shooting EOS 1’s & film, a 10D with battery vertical grip, funny you mentioned that camera from your school. Mine still works great though I dont really use it. I let my teenage daughter use it as her starter cam when she assists me on a shoot.
i am waiting for a FF DSLR for about 1000$, even if it takes 1-2-3 years. Until then I would use my old EOS 650. I am not willing to buy any cropped lens!
Actually, it’s because they have the exact same lens mount. Canon’s EF-S lenses have a shorter backfocus distance than EF lenses. So, if those shared the exact same mount it would be possible to mount an EF-S lens on a FF or APS-H body, but if that ever happenned then the mirror would strike the lens when if a picture was taken, since the lens projects further into the mirror box. This would destroy the FF or APS-H mirror.
Be prepared to be disappointed if anyone is even expecting any of the features posted.
:D
I will rofl when some obscure chinese company decides to take over the camera industry with a full-featured body and agressive pricing. Chineses will not care about preserving a `slow-pace market growth` and `large incremental sales`, and Canon will be the first company to fall from ladder.
Like THC in the mobile phone market, with Nokia still trying to figure out where the punch came from…
Moire**
There are many uses for focus bracketing other than landscapes or focus stacking.
Here’s one: Imagine you aim at a hawk, half-press, beep, full press. Ok, first of all, it takes you 30 ms to mentally process that beep and hit the shutter. The bird has moved. If the camera brackets the focus, it’s more likely to catch the bird IN focus. Now, you can use a servo mode, where the camera is tracking the bird, however, if the bird moves out of the frame (they do tend to move erratically) then the camera will focus WAY off and when the bird comes back, may (a) fail to refocus or (b) miss the focus. If you *manually* get the right focus by half-press, you know you’re close; focus bracketing can ensure that close == spot on.
Here’s another. You’re at a martial arts match. You focus on the near contestant; they’re moving around like crazy. You shoot. You get one shot. But with focus bracketing, you get multiples, *and* they can extend to get the other contestant as well. Why this matters is because less DOF = wider aperture = faster shutter speed = those fast moving folks are better portrayed. So focus bracketing lets you shoot more action at higher speeds.
Here’s another. You’re shooting astro, trying to get critical focus on a star. That’s *hard*, in case you’ve never tried it. Most AF systems can’t do it (neither my 40D or 50D can do it), and so mostly, this is done manually. The very finest focus bracketing plus and minus will see to it that you can actually GET critical focus.
I could really go on for quite a while; I *really* would like to see focus bracketing as a 60D feature. It’d be a “buy now” flag for me.
Add in two or more point focus micro-adjust and I’m yours, baby.
OK. It still takes time to adjust the focus and take multiple shots. so I do not agree with the usefulness in all but the astro example. furthermore, in those examples, if the camera had a good tracking AF (more points, with better tracking algorithm) there would be no problem. also in your examples you are amazingly optimistic about the subject wandering into the bracketed focus. about the astro example. you now have a 920,000 dot screen on the back of the camera. why would you waste many shots through which you would need to sort to find the correctly focused one when you could just do critical manual focus, and only have in focus shots?
also please explain this comment: But with focus bracketing, you get multiples, *and* they can extend to get the other contestant as well. I don’t quite get what you’re trying to say.
thx
> OK. It still takes time to adjust
> the focus and take multiple shots.
> so I do not agree with the usefulness
For small adjustments, focus can be changed in milliseconds, and it can be done while the previous image is being transferred. Remember, this doesn’t use the AF sensor – it’s a fixed set of steps ahead of calculated (or set) focus, thru there, and past. Or vice-versa. The speed of the camera won’t be focus limited, it’ll be limited to the rate the camera can snap. So you’re definitely wrong here. It’ll be just as fast, and therefore just as useful, as H/drive is. You’re not going to argue that H/drive is useless, are you? (smile)
> furthermore, in those examples, if
> the camera had a good tracking AF
> (more points, with better tracking
> algorithm) there would be no problem
One problem comes because lenses often don’t match cameras and critical focus is often not possible with the AF feature, especially with wider apertures and narrower DOFs. Particularly true for fine macros and astro, both areas of ridiculously critical focus (micro-focus adjustment is another desired feature.) Another comes because sometimes you MISS tracking because the subject gets out of frame.
> also in your examples you are amazingly
> optimistic about the subject wandering
> into the bracketed focus
It’ll work in some situations, and not in others. Just like every other camera technique we know. You’ll have to plan an appropriate bracket and know what you’re doing, and then the world will have to co-operate. I’m not saying it’ll fix all these situations, just that it will help address them.
> about the astro example. you now have
> a 920,000 dot screen on the back of the
> camera. why would you waste many shots
> through which you would need to sort
> to find the correctly focused one when
> you could just do critical manual focus,
> and only have in focus shots?
Because in most astro situations, you can’t SEE the stars; what shows up in a four second exposure is NOT what shows up in the viewfinder during live view. For instance, if I point my Æ’/2.8 200mm at the sky, wide open AT Æ’/2.8, it can’t see stars at all (on the viewfinder.) I have to find a planet, AND, because of atmospheric wavering, it is STILL very difficult to achieve critical focus. This all also assumes I have a tripod built like a battleship, since I’ll need 10x view to even try. Focus bracketing would let me get the shot if I could get close. Or at least improve it! As far as sorting thru them goes, that’s not a problem, would take mere seconds. I have to do that now, because I have to make multiple tries at MF anyway. Nothing lost there.
> [Explain:]
>> But with focus bracketing, you get multiples,
>> *and* they can extend to get the other contestant
>> as well
If you’re using a narrow DOF, you might get the contestant nearer you, but not the one further away (or vice versa.) This is likely because narrow DOF = faster shots = wider aperture. Stopping martial arts takes *lots* of speed. If you were using focus bracketing, you could set the bracket wide enough to scan thru the area and shoot behind them, on the one in back, in between them, on the one in front, and in front them, too. This could catch you more action in more places, and also might catch them as they move (as a pair around the ring, also useful with wider DOF.) These would be as close in time as the camera’s shooting rate would allow, and give you various focal depths for the action.
If you’ve not tried to shoot dan-level martial arts, I can see how this might not make sense to you. As an instructor and a photographer, I can assure you it’d be useful. You can’t plan these kinds of shots — the action is too fast to plan for. DOFs required vary wildly. As it is, I use camera automation (H/drive) and a much wider DOF than I want to, which in turn limits the ability to stop action. Compounding the problem is that these things occur in gyms that tend to be poorly lit, and flashes aren’t a good idea.
i agree, however not so strongly with the more autofocus point. sure it would be good. but its not necessary for me. also, improved speed (frames/second) would be handy.
I’m really late on getting onto this, currently researching Canon SLR’s and notice the huge gap in price from 50D [AU$1900 RRP] to the 5D [$4800].
There seems to be a need to slot something in between here; So here’s my ideas for the “60D” Development:
– 50D to replace 40D, and retain numbering as 50D then 50Di (ii,… etc) for future updates. Slight drop in pricing of the 50D, though more expensive than the 40D was.
This will leave 2-3 “Consumer DSLR” to choose from with the xxxD models;
– 60D to become a semi-pro line;
[I don’t like the 7D moniker for this line, though a jump to 70D would be OK]
– 1.3x Crop (YES, No EF-S lenses on this series) for a lower pixel/area ratio;
– Weather/Dust Sealing
– 15MP is sufficient at 6fps;
(Range to remain approx 5MP less than 5D models througout lifecycle)
– Perhaps do away with mirrored viewfinders and gain hi-res, 98-100% coverage EVF to keep the body size smaller than 5D. [And compete with Micro Four Thirds]
– HD Video will continue to be move into these cameras, Stereo Mics please, and full compatibility with “V-Series” lenses too
– Articulated HD Screens: I’m sure the cost difference of articulated vs fixed screens is negligible given the welcome protection it affords, and extra practicality, especially with videos
– Perhaps offer both SD and CF slots given this is between the consumer and pro lines
– Price at about 50% more than the current 50D Price [approx AU$2800]. Justifiable, given what ought to be much better image quality.
Other incremental upgrades (eg AF points) are a given, but I really don’t want to see any of the following:
– Flash, onboard flash’s are pretty redundant;
– Touch screen LCDs, save it for the iphones
– Onboard GPS/WiFi – but should be a much cheaper option than it is at the moment.
[Wifi should be added to 5D/1D as standard, given the very low cost to add in]
Hi there – first off, longtime reader, first time commenter. I thought I should probably say thanks for posting this piece, and I’ll be back!